Anakin Skywalker (ROTS) VS. Mace Windu (ROTS)

Started by Mizukage Yoda12 pages
Mizukage Yoda Lord of Winterfell

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You need to stop this "He Won", "He Lost" logic. Circumstances leading up to the fight(having help) count. Environment in which the fight takes place (Senate Chamber) make a big difference. Combatant reaching a rare and specific Uber state matter.

If you really want to go by the He Won, He Lost argument then Anakin beat The Son and Duaghter, meaning Mace doesn't have a chance in hell here.

👆
Correct, there's a reason Sidious retreated to the Grand Convocation Chamber, he knew that ass would have been kicked in that office.

DARTH POWER Senior Member
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That ABC logic is akin to saying Seattle scored that TD against Greenbay and thus won.. No.. we all saw that wasn't a TD.. the replay showed it wasn't a TD... They got the call wrong.. That is a win.. with a * i.e. not relevant or correct. That is about what ur analogy compares to

What the heck is this?

And how does it apply to Skywalker overpowering the Force Wielders?

ares834 Senior Member
Originally posted by Galan007
If Mace were facing a light sided user of the force, then he wouldn't really be utilizing Vaapad, he'd be using Juyo-- ie. he'd only be able to channel his own darkness against his opponent.

It would still be Vaapad not Juyo.

Originally posted by Galan007
However, even without being able to channel an opponent's darkness, Mace was still nearly on par with Yoda.

Where does this come from?

KuRuPT Thanosi Senior Member

By the way.. how does Yoda get to level 9.. if level 9 is achieved by giving into the darkside some?

Arhael Devoid of reality

Originally posted by ares834

Where does this come from?

"Perhaps only Master Mace Windu equaled him in skill and reputation - though Master Windu argued that he was still but a Padawan compaed to Master Yoda.
...
Mace Windu was considered his equal in terms of ability, insight and command.
...
In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.
" - The power of the Jedi sourcebook.

By the way.. how does Yoda get to level 9.. if level 9 is achieved by giving into the darkside some?

If I am not wrong it was refering to how Anain reached 9. He was 8 and turning to darkside gave him level up. To reach 9 as lightsider he would need more time.

ares834 Senior Member
Originally posted by Arhael
"Perhaps only Master Mace Windu equaled him in skill and reputation - though Master Windu argued that he was still but a Padawan compaed to Master Yoda.
...
Mace Windu was considered his equal in terms of ability, insight and command.
...
In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.
" - The power of the Jedi sourcebook.

None of those put him on par with Yoda. The first two are both ambiguously worded with "perhaps" and "considered" and the second one not only clearly puts him below Yoda but Dooku as well (at least within the time frame).

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by ares834
It would still be Vaapad not Juyo.
It is only when a Vaapad user faces an opponent whom possesses inner darkness that its bonus affect(ie. combining the opponent's inner darkness with their own) is applicable. However, when facing an opponent that is pure of heart, there is really nothing of substance that differentiates Vaapad from Juyo. That's likely why Vaapad is classified under Form VII/Juyo in pretty much any source I've ever seen. /shrug

Originally posted by ares834
Where does this come from?

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15340289/1.jpg.html
Per the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, only two opponents ever overcame Mace in battle-- Yoda and Dooku. Therefore, once Dooku left the Jedi(the same year TPM took place), Mace became the second best swordsman in the Order-- and given Mace's skillset, I do not believe that it is a flawed line of logic to assume he could give Yoda one hell of a fight, before ultimately losing to him(hence why I said: "nearly on par with..."😉

Originally posted by ares834
None of those put him on par with Yoda.
I said Mace was NEARLY on par with Yoda, fyi.

The_Tempest Senior Member

That was in response to Arhael, Galan, not you.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

They are both addressing a comment I made-- I'm guessing ares didn't see the "nearly" in my original post.

Anywho, that's why I responded. 👆

The_Tempest Senior Member

Your response was queer.

ares834 Senior Member
Originally posted by Galan007
It is only when a Vaapad user faces an opponent with inner darkness that its bonus affect(ie. combining the opponent's inner darkness with their own) is applicable. However, when facing an opponent that is pure of heart, there is really nothing of substance that differentiates Vaapad from Juyo. Remember, Vaapad is still classified under Form VII/Juyo in pretty much any source I've ever seen. /shrug

Djem Jo and Shien are also placed under the same form as well. Anyway, Windu can tell Vos is utilizing Vaapad with a single move, that seems to indicate there are further differences between Vaapad and Juyo then the superconducting loop.

Originally posted by Galan007
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15340289/1.jpg.html
Per the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, only two opponents ever overcame Mace in battle-- Yoda and Dooku. Therefore, once Dooku left the Jedi(the same year TPM took place), Mace became the second best swordsman in the Order-- and given Mace's skillset, I do not believe that it is a flawed line of logic to assume he could give Yoda one hell of a fight, before ultimately losing to him.

Don't see how you come to this conclusion at all. What has Windu done without the superconducting loop that puts him nearly on par with Yoda?

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your response was queer.
Hm, I feel like I've talked to you before... mmm

The_Tempest Senior Member
Originally posted by Galan007
Hm, I feel like I've talked to you before... mmm

It's the general sexual arousal that gives it away, yes?

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by ares834
Djem Jo and Shien are also placed under the same form as well.
While Djem So and Shien are blanketed under the same Form of combat, they are still defined as two completely different forms, from a technical standpoint:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15341065/3.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15341069/4.jpg.html

Whereas Vaapad and Juyo are not differentiated in any way(sans the superconducting loop, of course):
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15341063/2.jpg.html

So like I said: without said superconducting loop, Vaapad is essentially Juyo. I'm sure there are slight variations here and there, but they're basically the same. 👆

Originally posted by ares834
Anyway, Windu can tell Vos is utilizing Vaapad with a single move, that seems to indicate there are further differences between Vaapad and Juyo then the superconducting loop.
Mace knew when Vos used a Vaapad-attack against him. So what? Mace should know when he's attacked with his own Form. That doesn't change anything I've said.

Originally posted by ares834
Don't see how you come to this conclusion at all. What has Windu done without the superconducting loop that puts him nearly on par with Yoda?
He's done plenty to say that he could put up a good fight before losing, imo.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's the general sexual arousal that gives it away, yes?
Pretty much.

ares834 Senior Member
Originally posted by Galan007
Mace knew when Vos used a Vaapad-attack against him. So what? Mace should know when he's attacked with his own Form. That doesn't change anything I've said.

But that's the thing, mace says Vos is using a Vaapad move not a Juyo move. And Vos, certainly doesn't seem to be taught Vaapad's state of mind.

Also consider Grievous. He utilized all seven lightsaber forms including Juyo. Yet, it wasn't until his duel with Mace that he began to emulate Vaapad.

Originally posted by Galan007
He's done plenty to say that he could put up a good fight before losing, imo.

What do you mean by good fight?

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by ares834
But that's the thing, mace says Vos is using a Vaapad move not a Juyo move. And Vos, certainly doesn't seem to be taught Vaapad's state of mind.

Also consider Grievous. He utilized all seven lightsaber forms including Juyo. Yet, it wasn't until his duel with Mace that he began to emulate Vaapad.

Like I said: I'm sure there are slight variations here and there, but sans the superconducting loop, Juyo and Vaapad are essentially the same fighting style. That's why no source makes a clear distinction between them on a technical level.

Originally posted by ares834
What do you mean by good fight?
I mean that in my opinion, Mace is powerful/skillful enough to make Yoda work(pretty hard) for the win in a duel-- but Yoda would still win every time. The fact that he[Mace] was stalemating Dooku in Obsession, until Dooku had the Magna Guards attack him from behind lends credence to my opinion-- as Dooku's saber prowess was on par with Yoda's. /shrug

NewGuy01 perpetual

But this is TPM Mace--Who is supposedly inferior to Qui-Gon Jinn. ;P

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by NewGuy01
But this is TPM Mace--Who is supposedly inferior to Qui-Gon Jinn. ;P
This thread is RotS Mace, no?

Regardless, I've still yet to find a canon source that states Qui-Gon>Mace..?

Vensai Senior Member

Originally posted by Galan007
This thread is RotS Mace, no?

Regardless, I've still yet to find a canon source that states Qui-Gon>Mace..?

That is an inaccurate statement. It's only been said that Qui-Gon used to be able to fight evenly against Windu during his prime. Nothing was said about Qui-Gon BEATING Windu.