Kenobi (ROTS) and Kit Fisto (ROTS) vs. Count Dooku (ROTS)

Started by mnat80110 pages

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well according to the ROTS script Skywalker was forcing Kenobi backwards. He wasn't giving ground voluntarily. So Skywalker was the more powerful duelist.
When duelists use a defensive style of fighting, they tend to go backwards, not fowards. The Mustafar duel was the perfect demonstration of Anakins offensive style and Kenobi's defensive style.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I can't imagine Kenobi doing as well if they fought in tighter environments, like on Dooku's ship, or Palpatine's office.
That's entirely speculation. The superior duelist should be able to take out the other no matter what the terrain is. Kenobi's higher ground advantage was essentially his ability to adapt to the environment in which Anakin clearly failed to do.

Originally posted by mnat801
When duelists use a defensive style of fighting, they tend to go backwards, not fowards. The Mustafar duel was the perfect demonstration of Anakins offensive style and Kenobi's defensive style.

Yeah except the Script makes it perfectly clear that Kenobi giving ground wasn't to do with his style. He simply had no choice. Skywalker was the one Forcing him backwards.

He's simply the stronger duellist.

Originally posted by mnat801
That's entirely speculation. The superior duelist should be able to take out the other no matter what the terrain is..

Not true at all. We outright know Skywalker was the superior duellist on even ground as confirmed by the stunt coordinator's levels. Levels he got from extensive talks with George Lucas on the matter.

Originally posted by mnat801
[B Kenobi's higher ground advantage was essentially his ability to adapt to the environment in which Anakin clearly failed to do. [/B]

I've not disagreed with that because that's exactly the reason Kenobi won. That and Skywalker's judgement having been compromised by his recent turn to the Dark Side.

I'm STILL wiating on the PROOF VIA NARRATION OR SCRIPT OR FROM LUCAS THAT ANAKIN'S PERFORMACE was HINDERED AT ALL BECAUSE OF GUILT. You keep acting like it's a fact in evidence when it is anything but. Fact in evidence is the script or novel saying he wasn't fighting at 100% because of his confliction or guilt... it's saying his emotions were effecting his performace... WHERE IS THE NARRATION SUPPORTING IT? If there is none, then you need to concede that is your speculation.

Further, you dismiss the fact that Kenobi was also very emotional.. some might say MORE emotional. Who do you think is feeling more guilt... somebody who clealry has a tendency to fits of rage... pompous.. arrogant... etc etc or somebody who is generally morally better? That is like saying somebody who isn't a good person is going to feel just as much guilt about stealing a wallet as somebody who is a good better. That makes ZERO logical sense. Did you forget Anakin fit of rage and slaying all those people because of his mom's death? Did you forget that he was only thinking of himself when he turned to the DS? Yet you expect me to believe he was so guilt ridden that he couldn't fight worth a damn. If it was SO obvious and profound like you make it out ot be.. why was there no narration supporting it.. ODD eh?

Point is, you're caught up in the moment or a life or death situation.. you have a tendency to forget aout such things. Do you think if you'r ein a fight for your life you're going to be thinking about how you just cheated on your life and beat the prostitue you cheated on her with? Or would those thoughts TOTALLY leave your mind and you would totally fighting for survival? Not to mention already being pissed at Kenobi for turning Padme.. which woudl further make him forget about what he had done. STop trying to pass off your speculation as proof. Either post the proof or admit you have none. We have Lucas HIMSELF stating Anakin got more powerful and a better duelist when going to the DS... That trumps.. ohh he was feeling guilt THUS HE MUST MUST'VE fought shitty..

Good point KT. It's not like Kenobi was so eager to kill Skywalker.

They were both emotionally conflicted. And yet they both attempted to overpower the other, and both showed possibly the greatest dueling prowess we've witnessed from them in the movies.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Good point KT. It's not like Kenobi was so eager to kill Skywalker.

They were both emotionally conflicted. And yet they both attempted to overpower the other, and both showed possibly the greatest dueling prowess we've witnessed from them in the movies.

Kenobi was resolved more than conflicted. He had helped create this monster that had overtaken the boy he trained. He was ready to stop it.

Anakin on the otherhand...come on.
'In the Force, Mace could feel the monster inside Anakin Skywalker, a real monster, too real, one that was eating him alive from the inside out. Fear.
This was the wound Anakin had taken. This was the hurt that had him shaking and stammering and too weak to stand.'- Anakin can barely even stand after learning Palps in the Sith Lord, he even hesitates becoming Vader after dicing Mace's hand off. Later he is seen crying, right before having all of these horrible things catch up to him (killing younglings) come back to him and slap him in the face by none other than the living breathing reason he did all of that, he then proceeds to almost murder her were it not for Kenobi's timely intervention.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Kenobi was resolved more than conflicted. He had helped create this monster that had overtaken the boy he trained. He was ready to stop it.

Was he? He told Yoda he'd rather take his chances with the frigging Emperor!

And the novel makes it kind of clear how Obi-Wan's emotions affected his performance too- To strike him down would cause his heart to burn to ashes. And there was the "Compassion- The Flaw of the Jedi" thing too (which I think might be in the script as well. Will have to re-check).

Somehow I doubt "compassion" would be a big issue if he were fighting say Darth Maul.

These 2 were brothers. It was never going to be an emotionless fight Imho.

Having said that Skywalker was still the more powerful duelist. But I think we should give Kenobi the credit he deserves for holding him off for so long (not to mention actually defeating him).

Actually Kenobi wasn't resolved to doing so.. The novel makes it clear he was conflicting on what he had to do. As i stated before.. Anakin had ALREADY done all these things... That is like saying somebody stealing a wallet for the 4th time is more guilty by that 4th time. NO that isn't likely at all. What is more likely is they are use to and reso.lved to what they are.. and what they are doing.

The Padme incident is MORE proof of that NOT LESS. It's more proof that Anakin was pretty mcuh all bad at that point... He turned to the DS for his own selfish purposes and for his love Padme.. IF he wasn't MOSTLY BAD ALREADY.. do you really think he would choke her or try and kill her. If he was AS conflcted as some of you make out.. he wouldn't have done jack. Instead he further proves my point that he was way gone by that point and does another bad act. Yet you're going to tell me that is an act of a guilty person? Come on now people use common sense.

Originally posted by Galan007
Either way, shame/guilt/remorse/doubt/conflict-- those emotions do not strengthen, they weaken(look at any force-user who has ever taken doubt with them into a saber fight, for example.) That is my only point.
Originally posted by Galan007
Anyway, Lucas himself stated that when he was on Mustafar, Anakin was a mindphucked train-wreck who was full of guilt, remorse and conflict. Never, in the history of SW, have those emotions ever helped a Jedi or Sith in battle. Never. Once. Why on earth you guys think Anakin wasn't being hindered by those emotions, when any other force-user who has experienced those emotions has been hindered/weakened by them, is truly baffling to me. Personally, I think you guys are arguing just to argue. /shrug
Originally posted by Galan007
I could see him thinking his powers grew initially... But by the time he was crying on Mustafar, Anakin was an emotional mess. The emotions he was experiencing(guilt, conflict, remorse, etc.) DO NOT, and NEVER HAVE strengthened a force-user-- they have ONLY weakened them.

Show me a single instance in which a Jedi or Sith hasn't been hindered by the emotions Anakin was experiencing. If no one is able to do so, then I will keep assuming that Anakin is just like EVERY other Jedi/Sith in that regard, and WAS being hindered by those emotions. Guilt hinders you. Doubt hinders you. Conflict hinders you. Etc.

Some things don't need to be specifically referenced by the director of the film for us to still know what's going on-- and this is one of those.

Kenobi was JUST as hindered then.. we can ASSUME that very thing... The point is.. even IF he was feeling that way when fighting Kenobi.. A) so was kenobi and one could argue it would effect him more and B) not only is that speculation but you don't know HOW much it was effecting him..

For example... what it emotions in the range of 8/10.. 5/10 what would it be... My thinking is.. it would be around 1 or 2/10.. Reason being.. He was already bad and already gone by that point... The definitive proof of that is him trying ot kill Pad.. If he was TRULY guilty and bothered THAT much he wouldn't have even tried that or thought about that let alone executed that. That is pretty solid proof he was already gone and not feeling much of anything like guilt by that point. Further proof is, again.. he was ALREADY prone to going bad.. that is why Yoda and others feared training him. We aren't talking about a more morally kenobi here.. yes.. there would be mroe guilt there.. We're talking about an Anakin who had already slain people for his mothers death.. already killed younglings... already Killed Dooku when he shouldn't have.. already killed Mace and betrayed the Jedi.. That's akin to saying Jeffrey Daumer was feeling pretty damn guility killing no. 14 kid.. Ummm nah.. He was already gone.. already done too much.

So the point is.. not only is there ZERO narration stating it effected him in anyways... There is more proof that he was already far gone by that point. he had already done tooo much by that point. Plus the ever present life or death situation and being pissed at Kenobi.. Does somebody who just cheated on their wife with a prostitute they beat nearly to death feeling guily or not fighting as well when they get attacked by a knife outside the hotel room.. Nah I think they are fighting just the same and not thinkng about that one bit. Same with Anakin.. whatever guilt he might have been feeling wasn't even being thought about during his fight with Kenobi. If anything Kenobi was more conflicted which was expressed and yet still won.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah except the Script makes it perfectly clear that Kenobi giving ground wasn't to do with his style. He simply had no choice. Skywalker was the one Forcing him backwards.
Okay. So Anakin was forcing Kenobi backwards. Where did that get him? Nowhere! Anakin didn't put a single scar on Kenobi, and that was basically the longest lightsaber duel in the films! If it had nothing to do with Kenobi's fighting style, how the heck could he last that long, seeing that Dooku was disarmed in under a minute of their duel?

I'll give Anakin the credit for being able to force Obi Wan backwards for most of the fight, but Obi Wan gets at least the same amount of credit for fending of every single swing, without suffering any injury.

But as far as Soresu goes, if people can't accept that the result of this duel was AT LEAST partially due to Obi Wan's soresu, then I don't know how soresu can be portrayed otherwise.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He's simply the stronger duellist.
Doesn't mean anything if he never ended up defeating Kenobi. It didn't get him anywhere in that duel except for forcing Kenobi backwards. But he's stupid enough to let his guard down for Kenobi to be able to incapacitate his legs and arm, let alone outright killing him witha fatal blow.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not true at all. We outright know Skywalker was the superior duellist on even ground as confirmed by the stunt coordinator's levels. Levels he got from extensive talks with George Lucas on the matter.
So you're only counter to my argument is that you had just found out that Obi Wan is level 8 and Anakin level 9? Level's don't mean s**t if a level 8 Obi Wan can take down a level 9 Anakin. Especially when there's supposedly a big difference between 8 and 9. Please give me a better argument at least.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I've not disagreed with that because that's exactly the reason Kenobi won. That and Skywalker's judgement having been compromised by his recent turn to the Dark Side.
And this I agree with also. But with Anakin's hinderence also comes Obi wan's hinderence for his unwillingness to kill or even fight Anakin.

Don't even know how Kenobi couldn't get full credit... He was also hindered by conflict and still put that aside and got the job done.. Simple. I was pretty much the go to fight to see what a master of Soresu can do

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Kenobi was JUST as hindered then.. we can ASSUME that very thing... The point is.. even IF he was feeling that way when fighting Kenobi.. A) so was kenobi and one could argue it would effect him more and B) not only is that speculation but you don't know HOW much it was effecting him..

For example... what it emotions in the range of 8/10.. 5/10 what would it be... My thinking is.. it would be around 1 or 2/10.. Reason being.. He was already bad and already gone by that point... The definitive proof of that is him trying ot kill Pad.. If he was TRULY guilty and bothered THAT much he wouldn't have even tried that or thought about that let alone executed that. That is pretty solid proof he was already gone and not feeling much of anything like guilt by that point. Further proof is, again.. he was ALREADY prone to going bad.. that is why Yoda and others feared training him. We aren't talking about a more morally kenobi here.. yes.. there would be mroe guilt there.. We're talking about an Anakin who had already slain people for his mothers death.. already killed younglings... already Killed Dooku when he shouldn't have.. already killed Mace and betrayed the Jedi.. That's akin to saying Jeffrey Daumer was feeling pretty damn guility killing no. 14 kid.. Ummm nah.. He was already gone.. already done too much.

So the point is.. not only is there ZERO narration stating it effected him in anyways... There is more proof that he was already far gone by that point. he had already done tooo much by that point. Plus the ever present life or death situation and being pissed at Kenobi.. Does somebody who just cheated on their wife with a prostitute they beat nearly to death feeling guily or not fighting as well when they get attacked by a knife outside the hotel room.. Nah I think they are fighting just the same and not thinkng about that one bit. Same with Anakin.. whatever guilt he might have been feeling wasn't even being thought about during his fight with Kenobi. If anything Kenobi was more conflicted which was expressed and yet still won.

It's NOT speculation. Those emotions have always hindered force-users. ALWAYS. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Why on earth you are arguing that point is truly baffling..? Tell me a single time --a SINGLE time-- in which doubt or conflict have EVER strengthened a force-user, instead of weakening them. I'm waiting.

Furthermore, Kenobi only held back against Anakin initially. Very soon into their battle, Kenobi realized that he had to stop Anakin by any means necessary, so he stopped holding back:
"Obi-Wan let go. Of everything. His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. Everything.[...] Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment: He let it go."-- RotS

...Conversely, it was never once mentioned that Anakin let go of his emotions during their battle. Therefore, we can only assume he was still feeling exactly how Lucas described him: remorseful, guilty, conflicted, etc.

To recap:
Anakin was certainly NOT more powerful after turning to the dark side-- if anything, his powers would have been hindered/weakened secondary to the emotions he was experiencing at the time(as has been the case with ANY other force-user.) Again, a calm/cool mindset(when Anakin fought Dooku)>>a conflicted, guilty, and remorseful mindset(when Anakin fought Obi-Wan.) This is really very simple.

Originally posted by mnat801

So you're only counter to my argument is that you had just found out that Obi Wan is level 8 and Anakin level 9? Level's don't mean s**t if a level 8 Obi Wan can take down a level 9 Anakin. Especially when there's supposedly a big difference between 8 and 9. Please give me a better argument at least.

First of all I didn't just find out about the levels. I've got the Making of Revenge of the Sith.

I however was just given evidence that those levels came directly from Lucas. I did always suspect as much, as I didn't think Gillard would just make them up without discussing the topic with Lucas first.

So yeah my weak argument is that Lucas outright puts Anakin as a more powerful duelist to Kenobi.

I'm afraid your the one whose going to need to come out with better evidence when your disagreeing with what Lucas says.

Originally posted by Galan007
It's NOT speculation. Those emotions have always hindered force-users. ALWAYS. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Why on earth you are arguing that point is truly baffling..? Tell me a single time --a SINGLE time-- in which doubt or conflict have EVER strengthened a force-user, instead of weakening them. I'm waiting.

Furthermore, Kenobi only held back against Anakin initially. Very soon into their battle, Kenobi realized that he had to stop Anakin by any means necessary, so he stopped holding back:
"Obi-Wan let go. Of everything. His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. Everything.[...] Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment: He let it go."-- RotS

...Conversely, it was never once mentioned that Anakin let go of his emotions during their battle. Therefore, we can only assume he was still feeling exactly how Lucas described him: remorseful, guilty, conflicted, etc.

To recap:
Anakin was certainly NOT more powerful after turning to the dark side-- if anything, his powers would have been hindered/weakened secondary to the emotions he was experiencing at the time(as has been the case with ANY other force-user.) Again, a calm/cool mindset(when Anakin fought Dooku)>>a conflicted, guilty, and remorseful mindset(when Anakin fought Obi-Wan.) This is really very simple.

So you're still not addressing the points brought up so let's make this simple

1. You do agree that how much Anakin was effected would depend on the level of guilt or emotions he ws feeling correct. Somebody feeling level 9/10 would be effected more than somebody at a level 1/10 of guilt correct?

2. Do you agree that Anakin couldn't have been feeling THAT guilty or else how could he even think about killing Anakin. Somebody feeling as guilty as you make them out to be.. wouldn't go ahead and do an almost unthinkable act correct? That is more indicative of somebody NOT feeling guilt and too far gone correct?

3. You forget we AREN"T talking about a moral character like Kenobi here correct? We're talking about somebody who had a tendancy to be brash.. arrogant.. reckless.. have fear inside.. So many emotions in fact that the counsel didn't even want to Train him. Ponit is, somebody already morally quesitonable ISN'T going to feel as much guilt as say somebody like Kenobi correct?

4. Do you agree that the OVERRRIDING emotion that ANakin was feeling when fighting Kenobi was Anger? That sure seem readily apparent in the highest form of Canon.. He seemed pissed at Kenobi and wanted to kill him. He was going at him FULL BORE. That is HARDLY indicative of somebody feeling guilty or remorseful. Do you agree that is true? Further, if somebody was feeling as guilty as you claim.. they might hesitate in landing the decisive blow.. they might not attack with such vigor.. SHOW ME ANY INSTANCE in that might where he fought like that

5. Do you agree that somebody who just cheated on his wife and beat the living crap out of a prostitute to near death whilte there kid was in the room... Isn't even going to be thinking of that.. when he is attacked with a knife. Do you hoenstly not believe that feelings of guilt have a tendency to be forgotten in a fight or life or death situation. I mean come on man this is basic logic here.

6. Is it also not true.. that there IS narration supporting the fact that Kenobi WAS holding back.. and not one.. nOT ONE single shred of evidence that Anakin was holding back nor hindered in his fight?

These are all common sense and logically deduction to make when determining if emotions were hiindering Anakin at all.

Now, how can you say going to the DS didn't increase his power.. when Anakin said just that. You even admitted that Anakin prob felt that way.. yet you're saying he didn't grow stronger? HUH? We have george lucas signing off on the idea of levels of swordmanship and Anakin went HIGHER when he turned to the DS. So even if you believe (which I don't) that his emotionos hurt him.. you would have to weight that against the increase he got... but to say he didn't increase at all.. is going against Lucas himself.

Lastly, why would I have to show emotions effecting others when that doesn't matter in this case. YOU have to prove it EFFECTED HIM SPECIFICALLY.. not me having to prove it didn't. I have ZERO NARRATION OR ANY EVIDENCE OR EVEN HINT that it effected him in battle. If it was as big an issue as you're making it out to be.. why was there ZERO mention of it.. and don't give me ohhh they don't have to mention everything... that is a cop-out... The novel mentions very specific stuff in great detail that we coudl also assume but they stated in anyways.. yet no mention of this HUGE issue. Doesn't seem very plausible that was just left out for us to see. Further, just because Kenobi doesn't fight well after taking a dump... means ANakin won't? Just because one person was effected greatly by emotions means all will.. That is a logical fallacy and you know it buddy.

Holy mega-post!

Anakin was feeling EXTREMELY guilty/remorseful/conflicted/etc. about the evil things he'd done. That's why he was literally crying on Mustafar! Geeze, I've already addressed the questions you're asking. Thoroughly. Stop being purposefully obtuse.

Anywho, the above scene makes the rest of your 'points' entirely inconsequential. Lucas told us the emotions Anakin was experiencing-- we were then shown how much those decisions/emotions were effecting Anakin, when we saw him CRYING over them.

Once more: a force-user has NEVER been strengthened by emotions of that caliber. NEVER. ONCE. They have ONLY been hindered by them. Who is stronger in battle? A cool/calm/collected force-user, or a conflicted/guilty/doubtful force-user? Exactly.

It's really THAT simple. 🙂

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
First of all I didn't just find out about the levels. I've got the Making of Revenge of the Sith.

I however was just given evidence that those levels came directly from Lucas. I did always suspect as much, as I didn't think Gillard would just make them up without discussing the topic with Lucas first.

So yeah my weak argument is that Lucas outright puts Anakin as a more powerful duelist to Kenobi.

I'm afraid your the one whose going to need to come out with better evidence when your disagreeing with what Lucas says.

Are you 100% sure that came from Lucas? I guess it supports his statement when he says "Anakin is more powerful, but Obi Wan is more experienced." Still, doesn't change what was very clear in the films.

Oh by the way, as it sounds, Lucas never ranked Anakin as better than Obi Wan, he just said Obi Wan = level 8 and Anakin level 9.

Originally posted by Galan007
Holy mega-post!

I think this was his key point:

So even if you believe (which I don't) that his emotionos hurt him.. you would have to weight that against the increase he got... but to say he didn't increase at all.. is going against Lucas himself.

Originally posted by mnat801
Are you 100% sure that came from Lucas?

Gillard is 100% sure that it came from Lucas.

And you don't honestly think he would just make up the characters combat prowess himself without discussing it with Lucas first do you?

Or that Lucas would let him choreograph the fights without giving him an idea of their combat prowess?

Originally posted by mnat801
I guess it supports his statement when he says "Anakin is more powerful, but Obi Wan is more experienced." Still, doesn't change what was very clear in the films.

Oh by the way, as it sounds, Lucas never ranked Anakin as better than Obi Wan, he just said Obi Wan = level 8 and Anakin level 9.

9>8. So that's that. Skywalker was the Stronger swordsman on even ground.

Doesn't mean Kenobi's Soresu mastery can't hold him off for a while and maybe defeat him in another way: By say using the terrain to his advantage and tactically outsmarting him.

Edit

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think this was his key point:

So even if you believe (which I don't) that his emotionos hurt him.. you would have to weight that against the increase he got... but to say he didn't increase at all.. is going against Lucas himself.

But unless you think that Anakin was vastly inferior to Kenobi before turning to the dark side(despite his trouncing of Dooku suggesting otherwise), then he obviously didn't increase.

How do I know? Because Anakin's saber-skills were equal Kenobi's after turning to the dark side-- I can say this with confidence because we saw them stalemate throughout their entire battle, before Kenobi lopped off Anakin's extremities and watched him burn alive. Furthermore, even their brute force powers were equal-- I can say this with confidence because we also saw their force-pushes stalemate.

So tell me: what "increase" did we see from dark side Anakin? I believe he may have initially thought(key word) he was more powerful after turning, but that level of [unsubstantiated] arrogance(along with the other feelings of confliction he was experiencing at the time) was/were ultimately his undoing.

---

Anyway, here's my point:
If I can be convinced(with proof) that dark side Anakin was not being hindered by the very strong emotions he was experiencing at the time --like EVERY other force-user in the history of SW has been-- then I will readily agree that was at least on the same level that he was pre-dark-side-conversion. However, I have yet to see any evidence of the sort, thus I can only assume that Anakin is just like every other Jedi/Sith in that regard and was being hindered/weakened by said emotions. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007 Getting his arms and legs chopped off, before nearly burning to death represents the best performance of Anakin's life, you say? Lol, your definition of "best" must be a LOT different than mine.

Personally, I think Anakin's rather effortless slaying of Dooku(a guy who was on par with "level-9-Yoda" in sabers) represents a VASTLY better showing... Yet that occurred when Anakin was supposedly a poorer duelist? Lol again!


Reckless move at the end demonstrates Anakin's reckless and overconfidence. He demonstrated exactly the same recklessness against Dooku:
"Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.

Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke."

Anakin in his rage disregards whatever advantages his opponent has over him. On even ground it worked against Dooku but failed against Kenobi who at that point had higher ground.

Indeed, our definitions of best performance are completely different. I judge by technical level. Anakin was rather clumsy and slow on his final attack on Dooku. He defeated him by executing grappling technique. Dooku is not known to be skilled in unarmed combat and is not strong either. If anything Dooku showed lower performance than Kenobi and that's why lost so much quicker.

This:
Hayden Christensen, who plays Anakin, and Ewan McGregor, who stars as Obi-Wan Kenobi, faced a formidable task when they arrived in Sydney, Australia, to begin rehearsals and training. Christensen had a particularly grueling preparation schedule.

"Hayden worked really hard", Gillard says. "He did six hours of sword fighting every day with us, then he did two hours of training, an hour solid of weights and an hour of cardiovascular work. And he had to eat about six times a day!"

As central as the lightsaber battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin is to the movie, it's only one of the many stunt sequences on which Gillard worked. "You don't notice them as much as you would in other movies, because there's so much other action. I probably spent an equal amount of time on the stunts as I did on the sword fighting. They're very difficult and demanding to work out."

Lucas says Gillard's work is integral to the success of Revenge of the Sith. "Creating an action scene is very hard work, he says. "Nick has worked with Hayden and Ewan and turned them into amazing swordsmen. The speed they reach is unbelievable“. and it's all them up there.

Chareography of Anakin vs Kenobi is by far superior to Anakin vs Dooku. Anakin is labeled level 9 for this final fight and rightfully so. The actor had to train very hard on daily basis to be able to portray such an amazing performance.


Sorry, but given that Kenobi(a "level 8"😉 was STALEMATING Anakin(a "level 9"😉 even though the difference between a level 8 and 9 is supposedly "enormous" is a little hard for me to believe-- in fact, I can't believe it.

The difference was enormous because Anakin was on the offensive whole time, while Kenobi surviving. Superior fighter will always put inferior one on the defensive. Fighting defensively and constantly giving ground is the best way to mitigate opponent's superior skill and strength.

If Anakin were an "enormously" better duelist than Kenobi after turning to the dark side, then Kenobi's Soresu would have been utterly inconsequential-- Anakin would have easily beaten him, not just stalemate him throughout the entire battle. So yeah, you can preach the "levels" stuff to people who overlook those facts. 👆

Another fact from Jedi vs Sith guide you overlook is that true Soresu masters are considered invincible. But that's not the point.
The flaw in your opinion is that you consider one style to be better than the other. Each style has its own advantages. Specific advantage of Soresu is that it allows to survive superior opponents for much longer than other styles. At the end of the day either opponent can win depending on circumstances and simply luck.

Anyway, Lucas himself stated that when he was on Mustafar, Anakin was a mindphucked train-wreck who was full of guilt, remorse and conflict. Never, in the history of SW, have those emotions ever helped a Jedi or Sith in battle. Never. Once. Why on earth you guys think Anakin wasn't being hindered by those emotions, when any other force-user who has experienced those emotions has been hindered/weakened by them, is truly baffling to me. Personally, I think you guys are arguing just to argue. /shrug

Can you prove that those emotions were tormenting Anakin during actual fight? His talk with Padme demonstrates he had no remorse and believed he is doing right thing. Choking Padme shows that feeling betrayed is the only thing he is concerned about. Talk with Kenobi shows that he blames Kenobi for everything. The whole fight Anakin mercilessly attacks Kenobi without giving any second thought with face distorted by anger. And, when he lost his limbs, there was no guilt, there was only hatred towards Kenobi. Only after Kenobi was gone, Anakin had chance to feel guilt and remorse for his actions.

In any case Nick Gillard was portraying Anakin with combat prowess level 9. Keeping Kenobi on the retreat whole time is a big feat considering that Kenobi outskilled Maul and Opress combined.