Kenobi (ROTS) and Kit Fisto (ROTS) vs. Count Dooku (ROTS)

Heh, the difference between a level 8(Kenobi) and a level 9(Anakin) is allegedly enormous, per your quotes. There was clearly NOT an "enormous" difference between them. They stalemated. The entire time. Anakin never once gained any sort of noteworthy ground, despite his form of combat, Djem So, being an ideal form to breach the defenses of Kenobi's Soresu. If Anakin truly were an "enormously" better duelist, he would have owned Kenobi without much effort. Simple.

The difference between Palpatine and Savage, for example, represents an "enormous" difference-- as Palps tooled Savage effortlessly in sabers. The difference between Anakin and Kenobi, however, was marginal at BEST.

All your mega-post represents is a massive attempt to save face, without addressing what we clearly saw happen in the battle itself. So again: save that stuff for people who ignore the facts. 👆

Originally posted by Galan007
Heh, the difference between a level 8(Kenobi) and a level 9(Anakin) is allegedly enormous, per your quotes. There was clearly NOT an "enormous" difference between them. They stalemated. The entire time. Anakin never once gained any sort of noteworthy ground, despite his form of combat, Djem So, being an ideal form to breach the defenses of Kenobi's Soresu. If Anakin truly were an "enormously" better duelist, he would have owned Kenobi without much effort. Simple.

The difference between Palpatine and Savage, for example, represents an "enormous" difference-- as Palps tooled Savage effortlessly in sabers. The difference between Anakin and Kenobi, however, was marginal at BEST.

All your mega-post represents is a massive attempt to save face, without addressing what we clearly saw happen in the battle itself. So again: save that stuff for people who ignore the facts. 👆

Defensive positions often do give ground to their opponent(it's a basic concept in fencing), so that is a moot point.

Bottom line: there was certainly not an "enormous" difference to be had. If Anakin were "enormously" more skillful, he would have made short work of Kenobi. Why? Because a.) he'd be WAAAY better with a saber overall, and b.) Per canon info, Djem So is ideal for breaching "ANY defense"(ie. Soresu)... Yet absolutely no ground of note was gained by Anakin. They stalemated the entire time before Kenobi finally prevailed. Plain and simple.

Again: an "enormous" difference=Palpatine/Savage. A "marginal" difference=Anakin/Kenobi. I feel like you're making this a lot harder than it needs to be, for no reason.

Originally posted by Galan007
But unless you think that Anakin was vastly inferior to Kenobi before turning to the dark side(despite his trouncing of Dooku suggesting otherwise), then he obviously didn't increase.

How do I know? Because Anakin's saber-skills were equal Kenobi's after turning to the dark side-- I can say this with confidence because we saw them stalemate throughout their entire battle, before Kenobi lopped off Anakin's extremities and watched him burn alive. Furthermore, even their brute force powers were equal-- I can say this with confidence because we also saw their force-pushes stalemate.

So tell me: what "increase" did we see from dark side Anakin? I believe he may have initially thought(key word) he was more powerful after turning, but that level of [unsubstantiated] arrogance(along with the other feelings of confliction he was experiencing at the time) was/were ultimately his undoing.

---

Anyway, here's my point:
If I can be convinced(with proof) that dark side Anakin was not being hindered by the very strong emotions he was experiencing at the time --like EVERY other force-user in the history of SW has been-- then I will readily agree that was at least on the same level that he was pre-dark-side-conversion. However, I have yet to see any evidence of the sort, thus I can only assume that Anakin is just like every other Jedi/Sith in that regard and was being hindered/weakened by said emotions. /shrug

Wait so we need to prove Anakin wasn't effected by the emotions he was feeling? Umm No my friend.. you have it backwards... YOU need to prove these emotions were effecting him. The point that can't be gotten around is there was ZERO.. ZILTCH.. NOT ONE HINT of Anakin being effected by his emotions during his fight with Kenobi. It was even ALLUDED TO. So then, it's up to you to prove that it was said yet still existed. Because as it stands.. the proof is on my side i.e. no mention of there being an issue.. i'm saying there was no issue. My further proof of this is... If Anakin was TRULY feeling so guilty as to effect his performance... Then we would've seen such emotions come out during his fight.. i.e. holding back.. not going for the killing blow.. face expressions showing such.. instead WE SEE NOTNING.. AGAIN NOT ONE SINGLE SIGN ANAKIN IS FEELING ANY GUILTY OR SADNESS.. He is attacking Kenobi FULL FORCE.. Do you not agree? That certainly isn't showing any signs he was feeling much of anything but anger.. AND AS WE KNOW ANGER MAKES HIM STRONGER per canon novelization. Lastly, we have further proof he wasn't feeling anything by his actions towards Padme... When you're feeling as guilty as you make out.. he wouldn't have done what he did... If he was so guilt ridden to effect his performace he wouldn't just go ahead and try and kill her.. That DEFIES LOGIC AND COMMON SENSE. THus, clearly he wasn't feeling as guility as you make out. If so, those aren't the actions of somebody really feeling bad about what he's done.

I dno't think there was an enormous difference myself.. So that I don't agree with. Just the fact that Kenobi was an 8.. able to defeat a 9.. in n of itself points to a slight difference not an enormous one. That isn't my point though.. my issue is that Ankin showed ZERO signs of being negatively effected by his emotions.. and in fact... showed the opposite during his fight with Kenobi. To go further, if anybody was effected during that fight negatively by emtions it was Kenobi.. which by the way.. is the ONLY perosn to have any narration about him holding back.. n Anakin. Thus, the canon proof is on that side the argument. Yet, Kenobi still won. That gap couldn't be enourmous.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
YOU need to prove these emotions were effecting him.

The burden of proof now lies on YOU to prove that he was no longer experiencing guilt, remorse, confliction, doubt, etc. when Kenobi confronted him a little later. Good luck!

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I dno't think there was an enormous difference myself.. So that I don't agree with. Just the fact that Kenobi was an 8.. able to defeat a 9.. in n of itself points to a slight difference not an enormous one. That isn't my point though..

Glad we agree there, though. 😛

Originally posted by Galan007
Defensive positions often do give ground to their opponent(it's a basic concept in fencing), so that is a moot point.

Bottom line: there was certainly not an "enormous" difference to be had. If Anakin were "enormously" more skillful, he would have made short work of Kenobi. Why? Because a.) he'd be WAAAY better with a saber overall, and b.) Per canon info, Djem So is ideal for breaching "ANY defense"(ie. Soresu)... Yet absolutely no ground of note was gained by Anakin. They stalemated the entire time before Kenobi finally prevailed. Plain and simple.

Again: an "enormous" difference=Palpatine/Savage. A "marginal" difference=Anakin/Kenobi. I feel like you're making this a lot harder than it needs to be, for no reason.

The fact that Djem So can penetrate any defense doesn't mean it grands victory because defender can still prevent killing blow by dodging or moving away on safe distance. Anakin did penetrate Kenobi's defense three times. One time he choked him and nearly killed with Kenobi's own weapon. And he kicked him twice.

Also, if you gonna argue by "style make fights" logic, then read this:

True masters of Form III have long been considered invincible: although not always able to overcome their adversaries, no Form III masters have ever been defeated. - Jedi vs Sith The essential guide to the Force.

And, Galan007, I know who you are. 😮‍💨

Originally posted by Arhael
In circumstances, where you always have space to move backward, you can stalemate any opponent no matter how skilled he is.

Originally posted by Arhael
The fact that Djem So can penetrate any defense doesn't mean it grands victory because defender can still prevent killing blow by dodging or moving away on safe distance.

Your stance is that Anakin was an "enormously" better duelist than Kenobi. If that were true, then he would have obliterated Kenobi w/o much effort for 2 main reasons:
a.) Because he'd be a vastly better duelist overall.
b.) Because he utilizes a form of combat that, per canon, can "penetrate ANY defense."

...But because Anakin was clearly NOT "enormously" better, he and Kenobi merely stalemated.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, if you gonna argue by "style make fights" logic, then read this:

True masters of Form III have long been considered invincible: although not always able to overcome their adversaries, no Form III masters have ever been defeated. - Jedi vs Sith The essential guide to the Force.

Anywho, aside from the Djem So quote I've repeatedly posted, there's also this quote pertaining to Juyo:
"While [Juyo's] attacks can eviscerate defenses---even the blocks of a Form III Master[...]" - A Manual for Students of the Force

Thus there are at least 2 forms of combat(3 if you count Makashi) that are ideal for breaching the defenses of Soresu. So again: if Anakin were really an "enormously" better duelist(a claim only YOU seem to boast) he'd of tooled Kenobi rather easily... But he'd didn't.

Originally posted by Arhael
And, Galan007, I know who you are. 😮‍💨

I think the word "Enormous" was a clear overstatement by Nick.

But that doesn't change the fact that the levels were given to him by Lucas. Or that Skywalker was the "stronger" duelist to Kenobi, hence Kenobi being constantly Forced backwards.

Stronger not more skilled. They were equally skilled as confirmed by the ROTS novel, Nick Gillard and confirmed visually in their performance.

Turning to the Dark Side would not increase Skywalker's skill level.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think the word "Enormous" was a clear overstatement by Nick.

There was really no difference to be had. It was a true stalemate.

Originally posted by Galan007
👆

There was really no difference to be had. It was a true stalemate.

Nah. A true stalemate wouldn't have had Skywalker Forcing Kenobi backwards as confimred by the script. Edit- And constantly penetrating his defenses via kicks. Something that's not easy when Kenobi is serious. Just ask Maul and Opress.

On even ground it would just be a matter of time before Skywalker broke through Kenobi's defenses.

The line "This is the end for you now my Master," suggests to me Kenobi couldn't keep up his defenses indefinitely.

But if they were broken easily while he has all the room in the world to constantly back off then being "The Master" of Soresu would seem kind of lame.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah. A true stalemate wouldn't have had Skywalker Forcing Kenobi backwards as confimred by the script. Edit- And constantly penetrating his defenses via kicks. Something that's not easy when Kenobi is serious. Just ask Maul and Opress.

On even ground it would just be a matter of time before Skywalker broke through Kenobi's defenses.

The line "This is the end for you now my Master," suggests to me Kenobi couldn't keep up his defenses indefinitely.

But if they were broken easily while he has all the room in the world to constantly back off then being "The Master" of Soresu would seem kind of lame.

Originally posted by Galan007
Remember, at one point, Kenobi also disarmed Anakin...

That's true. But Skywalker also disarmed him. And it was Skywalker who was getting the majority of the hits in.

Originally posted by Galan007
And it's also kind of funny to me how people are acting like Obi-Wan was being pushed back the entire time. He wasn't. Rewatch the film.

Well there was enough instances where Kenobi was backing off. And backing off quite a bit.

And it's confirmed by Lucas's Script that it was Skywalker Forcing him back. It wasn't simply because he's a defensive fighter.

He was definitely the stronger/more powerful fighter Imo. And I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And it's confirmed by Lucas's Script that it was Skywalker Forcing him back. It wasn't simply because he's a defensive fighter.

He was definitely the stronger/more powerful fighter Imo. And I'm not the only one who thinks so.

What I absolutely cannot agree with is the notion that Anakin was "enormously" more skillful than Kenobi. Frankly, I find that absurd.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, tell that to Savage. He had AMPLE room to move backward and was still tooled by Palps.

You're. Not. Listening.

Your stance is that Anakin was an "enormously" better duelist than Kenobi. If that were true, then he would have obliterated Kenobi w/o much effort for 2 main reasons:
a.) Because he'd be a vastly better duelist overall.
b.) Because he utilizes a form of combat that, per canon, can "penetrate ANY defense."

...But because Anakin was clearly NOT "enormously" better, he and Kenobi merely stalemated.

Savage unlike Kenobi was refusing to give ground and fight defensively, on opposite he kept trying to attack again and again. Sidious landed that kick in the face, when Opress tried to attack him.

Hm, well Kenobi was supposedly THE master of Soresu, yet Grievous still managed to overwhelm his defenses:
"Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks-sixteen per second, eighteen-until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense." - RotS

Anywho, aside from the Djem So quote I've repeatedly posted, there's also this quote pertaining to Juyo:
"While [Juyo's] attacks can eviscerate defenses---even the blocks of a Form III Master[...]" - A Manual for Students of the Force

Thus there are at least 2 forms of combat(3 if you count Makashi) that are ideal for breaching the defenses of Soresu. So again: if Anakin were really an "enormously" better duelist(a claim only YOU seem to boast) he'd of tooled Kenobi rather easily... But he'd didn't.

Originally posted by Arhael
I. Am. Listening. And explained you the reason that, if one is enormously better duelist, another can still stalemate him by fighting defensively and giving ground.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nowhere it says that defense of master of Soresu cannot be overwhelmed. Only that they are invincible and has never been defeated.

Originally posted by Arhael
Anakin as I said penetrated Kenobi's defense three times, yet, still failed to defeat him.

Thanks for helping prove my point. 👆

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, nice try at taking quotes out of context, here is continuation:
...he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense. So Obi-Wan used his defense to attack. A subtle shift in the angle of a single parry brought Obi-Wan's blade in contact not with the blade of the oncoming lightsaber, but with the handgrip. -slice-
Kenobi didn't get defeated as result of his defense getting overloaded, on opposite he began outskilling Grievous.

Originally posted by Arhael
Throw as many quotes as you like, one style advantage does not make it superior to another.

In this case you're claiming that Anakin was "enormously" better than Kenobi, so he should have been able to kill him with ease(especially when they were in the tighter quarters of the control room, for example.)

This is very simple.

Originally posted by Galan007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT0Pmlyee6o
Anakin felt so bad about the choices he'd made that he was literally crying over them. If that isn't good enough evidence that said emotions were [negatively] affecting him, then I don't know what is.

The burden of proof now lies on YOU to prove that he was no longer experiencing guilt, remorse, confliction, doubt, etc. when Kenobi confronted him a little later. Good luck!

I know it wasn't your point, friend. That was all in reference to Arhael's stance.

Glad we agree there, though. 😛

That isn't the least bit true though.. The burden of proof STILL lies with you my friend. That would be like me saying... Anakin was still feeling guilt over slaying all those people after his mom died.. Surely he felt guilty... there i no narration stating he was still feeling guilty... so therefore he must still feeling guilty in ever confrontation after? No that isn't how ti works and what you're proposing here. Look at it like this...

We see Kenobi have doubt.. confliction sadness BEFORE even facing Kenobi when talking to Yoda... We still SEE these same emotions present when talking to kenobi and it was EVEN REFERENCED as him STILL feeling that way during the fight. Now in STARK CONTRAST TO THAT.. We see Anakin upset with some stuff he did BEFORE being confronted. Yet Unlike Kenobi.. .when confronted SHOWED NO.. NO INDICATION HE WAS STILL FEELING THAT WAY. Not only did his words show no sign of feeling anything but anger.. but his actions ALSO showed he wasn't feeling as guility as you make out. Choking Pad... Attacking Kenobi with such force... That is proof he wasn't feeling anything.. and EVEN IF Those facts weren't present for us all to see. .the burden would still lie on you to prove he was and it EFFECTED him.

Further, where are these instances you're referring to where guilty.. conflict.. sadness... has ALWAYS to use your words negatively effected a jedi or sith in combat? We see numerous instances where the exact OPPOSITE is true. Kenobi upon seeing his master slain... clearly felt sadness.. guilt that he couldn't do anything to save him.. Yet, he attacked Maul with vigor and aggression and ANGER.. and OVERCAME HIM. Funny huh, there is that anger thing being mentioned as a key to Kenobi being victorious... Kinda like how Anakin was fighting eh? Luke.. when his mind was read and he gave away the secret about his sister and endangered her... Felt sad.. confliction.. doubt.. guilt.. shit.. he is even shown with his eyes watering RIGHT BEFORE taking HIS OWN FATHER OUT. So, where are these examples of emotions ALWAYS negatively effecting somebody and making them fight subpar.. I've just cited two examples where the exact opposite was true.

Ohhh and i don't think Kenobi's defenses were overwhelmed by The General. In the highest form of canon.. he disarms The General of 3 of his sabers... Seems the exact opposite of overwhelmed. Anyways, Anakin is not enormously better than kenobi.. that is just silly