Originally posted by a88378438
supergirl strength was always close superman,your piont just shit,supergirl ,powergirl,wonder woman put together also cao move the earth,Thor or bill strength was no match for them
Clearly my point was a bit too much for you.
Originally posted by -Pr-
To be fair, when J'onn takes on a humanoid form you could easily argue that he has organs/bones etc.The scene was still silly, though.
Thought they were in space at that time?
Originally posted by currymanOkay, so this is your point.
That Kara would use the hammer against Bill.
Given her strength, speed, and modus operandi, there's a very good chance of that, yes.
Originally posted by currymanAnd these are your incidents;
- One incident of someone grabbing an unaware Thor's hand.
- Loeb Rulk grabbing Thor's hammer in space (which is possible).
- Juggernaut holding onto Thor's hammer while it's going back.
Thanos tells the Avengers that people are weak-minded just before that, and Hulk tells Thor "Hulk not in control" AS he's doing that.
If Thor, with all his years of battle experience and mind control incidents is NOT aware something is wrong with that while Hulk agitatedly grabs his hammer-hand, something's wrong with Thor, not just Hulk.
Originally posted by curryman
[Someone grabbing an unaware Thor's hand] didn't happen in combat.
See above.
Originally posted by curryman
[Loeb Rulk grabbing Thor's hammer in space, which is possible] was written by Loeb and happened just after Rulk killed a Watcher with one punch and right before he basically killed an alternate Galactus.
It was nice of you to supply background information.
Thank you for that.
The relevant portion, however, which you get my respect for admitting,
is that grabbing Thor's hammer in space is possible and well-illustrated in that incident,
as it was when Iron Man did something somewhat similar more than 20 years earlier.
Originally posted by curryman
the final one [Juggernaut holding onto Thor's hammer while it's going back] isn't even proof of Thor being overpowered!
Right. You don't need to overpower someone to beat them.
However, when you're strong enough TO simply overpower your opponent, you have that many more routes to reaching a win.
Originally posted by curryman[Martian Manhunter] was one of three people who moved [Earth] and it's impossible to say how much he put in.
That's why I wrote the following:
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someone can be IMMENSELY strong, strong enough to move, by fair estimate, a fifth to perhaps even a third or more of planet EARTH -- and still be helpless when Kara responds by applying her OWN physical strength to them in return.
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Also, we know Martians are roughly as strong as Superman according to the writers of the JLA title where that scene appeared (Morrison especially comes to mind, who stated as much in the New World Order arc that began the series), so it makes sense to assume J'onnz
is handling a load roughly equal to that of his 2 partners and not something ridiculously low like a fiftieth or one-thousandth of the weight.
Originally posted by curryman
she can choke the man who doesn't need to breathe or stay solid.
Many writers DO have J'onnz and other Martians needing to breathe.
In the aforementioned New World Order arc of JLA, for instance, Morrison has Wonder Woman take out the Martian named "Primaid" by taking Primaid into space and fighting Primaid until Primaid can no longer hold her breath.
Originally posted by curryman
I'm not sure why you're so fond of her fight with Wonder Girl considering Dr.Light had no problems taking control over her lasso as well, and that magic is fueled by a less powerful deity than Stormbreaker is and at the time Ares was convincing Cassie that she needed to accept more of his power
1) It sets the precedent of Supergirl being able to channel harmful magic energy back to its sender, something she should not inherently, theoretically, be able to do
2) Whether Supergirl can re-direct magic in Bill's case or not,
the scene ALSO demonstrates that Supergirl is a strategist, one who studies her opponent and reasons how to counter said opponents on their own terms. In other words, its proof that it would be very much in character for Supergirl to reason how to make Stormbreaker work AGAINST Bill and score a knockout win.
Originally posted by a88378438
Your point just ...
A88?
The cursing and disparaging remarks are uncalled for.
If you believe there's a good case to be made for Supergirl, better than that to be made for Beta Ray Bill winning, then please, simply present the case. The level of incivility already present in this forum doesn't need to be increased, and I'm genuinely interested in hearing the counterarguments from the other side, if there are any.
Give them the same courtesy you would like to see given to you, please.
Thank you for your time.
Originally posted by bluewaterriderMany writers DO have J'onnz and other Martians needing to breathe.
In the aforementioned New World Order arc of JLA, for instance, Morrison has Wonder Woman take out the Martian named "Primaid" by taking Primaid into space and fighting Primaid until Primaid can no longer hold her breath.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
A88?The cursing and disparaging remarks are uncalled for.
If you believe there's a good case to be made for Supergirl, better than that to be made for Beta Ray Bill winning, then please, simply present the case. The level of incivility already present in this forum doesn't need to be increased, and I'm genuinely interested in hearing the counterarguments from the other side, if there are any.
Give them the same courtesy you would like to see given to you, please.
Thank you for your time.
Originally posted by -Pr-
To be fair, when J'onn takes on a humanoid form you could easily argue that he has organs/bones etc.
Originally posted by curryman
Thought they were in space at that time?
Originally posted by -Pr-
They were, but Superman has lungs too...
Superman requires breathing sometimes and so do/did DC Post-Crisis Martians.
Also, for shape-shifting to be a counter it needs to be an actively thought-out defense. For instance, in one of the Teen Titans issues, Miss Martian, expecting trouble, allowed herself to get shot in the head.
Would have killed any normal person. Might have killed her if she had not made prior unseen internal body organ adjustments.
But she did.
So, when she, in the guise of Robin Tim Drake, got shot, even though the initial effect appeared violent dramatic and gruesome, it did her no practical harm. She went on to easily defeat the men attacking her.
On the other hand, when Miss Martian's 7-years-ahead-in-a-dystopic-future version of herself came back and fought her "current" self, and her "current" self was emotionally and mentally overwhelmed to the breaking point, "current" Miss Martian ... decapitated "dystopic future" Miss Martian, apparently killing that version of herself.
The difference?
Dystopic future Miss Martian had not expected the assault, did not prepare her body for a killing strike to the head and so ... did not survive.
Believe this was somewhere around Teen Titans #50, the 2nd "Future Titans" storyline.
At any rate, it's an illustration of the principle that a Martian needs to anticipate some types of killing or threatening strikes if shape-shifting is to defend against them.
They're not like a piece of bubble gum ordinarily, unaffected by strikes that would absolutely kill other super-beings.
They're vulnerable sometimes without prep, too.
Originally posted by -Pr-
To be fair, when J'onn takes on a humanoid form you could easily argue that he has organs/bones etc.
Originally posted by curryman
Thought they were in space at that time?
Originally posted by -Pr-
They were, but Superman has lungs too...
If we're talking specifically about that fight "Dark" Kara had with Martian Manhunter again, it's important to keep in mind that the locale wasn't really out in the middle of space somewhere.
The location was the crater on the Moon that then housed the Justice League of America (JLA) Satellite Base.
Which is significant, because, within range, that base generated a breathe-able atmosphere for people in and around the area.
In fact, such is actually specifically mentioned through computer narration in Supergirl 4, right after Dark Kara finishes throwing Lex Luthor FROM somewhere above Earth TO the Moon :
The idea seems borrowed from Arena Crater on Marvel Comics Earth-616 Moon, the place where the X-Men fought against Gladiator and the Shi'ar for the life of Jean Grey.
Long as you stay in that Crater, you're all right; the only effect you'll experience is lighter weight due to lighter gravity.
Venture BEYOND the crater's limits, however ...