Originally posted by bluewaterrider
No problem. If the fight comes down to the purely physical, I'm going with Supergirl. And if Bill is not a strategist who uses the more exotic powers of Stormbreaker as a matter of course, I am again going with Supergirl for any average conventional fight. The exception to that would be if Supergirl, deciding to go for Bill's hammer, Stormbreaker, betrays too long a moment's surprise if she finds, separate from Bill, that she cannot lift or wield that thing. I can see Bill capitalizing on her shock and inexperience to enough of a degree to turn the fight around.
Otherwise, I'm thinking Kara is too swift, too decisively adept at quickly figuring out what an opponent's weakness should be or in using their weapons against them, and too physically strong for Bill to resist being overpowered once she decides to take him down.On the other hand, if Bill's Modus Operandi is to open up a warp in space with Stormbreaker and have it swallow his opponent, or use the hammer to "probe" like Thor has done for magic and somehow discover that teleporting Kara to a red sun system would take the fight out of her, then I would go with Bill all the way.
From what I've currently seen, however, Bill is more or less a ruthless Thor-class brawler. I don't see that taking Kara down given her success against the likes of Doomsday and Ultraman and Thor's struggles with both Superman and Gladiator.
Cool, thanks for taking the time to answer me. Very much appreciated. 🙂
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Cleverly enough handled, Curry, but you know as well as I do it's the 2nd question I asked that's the challenge:C'mon man, don't duck me, I posted those scans on the previous page for a reason:
If I skip it then I generally agree or find it irrelevant 😛
I've largely ignored most of your posts here because it's stuff that a lot of people, me included, take for granted. Things like Supergirl being around the same strength-class as the heavy hitters. Ultraman is subject to many ups and downs, and sad to say, he's suffered far more downs than ups.
Problem with Supergirl is that I feel like she's surrounded by PIS very often. I'm not gonna start disqualifying feats and stuff but I don't think we need to read more into her sucker-punching Superman than just that. We're never ever gonna see him brutally savage her or anything like that either so to get it out of the way I'll just lay down my quick two cents on Supergirl.
Most writers who end up on her book love her and fall into the typical trap where they try to prove how great the character is by having her whomp on everyody. At the same time we're never ever going to see Superman beat her as badly as he would in an actual all-out battle. Ultraman has never really lived up to the idea of a Superman who doesn't hold back because from what we've seen he has like one instance of actually proving himself to be Kal's peer.
That said, it's a not a good point to pursue. Superman has feats that knock anyone out of the ballpark. She doesn't need to be his superior or equal in order to beat Bill. I'll agree that she might actually perform better than Superman in some instances because she, unlike him, come from different means, etc and probably doesn't hold back as much 🙂
Originally posted by bluewaterriderexcept where she goes against Superman himself, who is gifted, not with physical advantage but far greater fight experience, Kara takes nearly ever Superman-analog who comes against her.
Besides being more corroboration for my statement, the following illustrates Kara's ability to damage soak a powerful attack ...
Originally posted by -Pr-That isn't Superman.
😕
Where did I say it was?
But that IS a Superman analog,
even as, say Marvel Comic's Gladiator would be
(who Thor, from the fight I know of, guesting designate Tarene, fares rather poorly against by himself, by the way)
and Kara takes him just like every other Superman analog that I personally know of.
Besides that, it's Kara damage soaking the kind of attack Bill himself seems wont to perform, if that kamikaze charge shown at the beginning of this thread is any indication.
Originally posted by -Pr-So do you think she's his physical equal? Or no?
Equal? I'd say she's the physical superior of Kon-el.
I'd say Kara's probably the physical superior of Ultraman, too, especially to judge from her besting him 3 times in essentially pure brawling encounters.
And I see no reason NOT to rank Ultraman the physical equal of Superman given that the main in-comic explanation of why he loses to Superman is that Superman has far greater fight experience.
On the other hand, there's a difference between pre-reboot Kara throughout the runs of Loeb, Kelly, Verheiden, Puckett, Waid, and McKeever and that of final author Sterling Gates.
She didn't have a particularly short run this time around ...
It's Kon-El. As a young man, he was less powerful than Supergirl. Even if he got better as he got older, there's no proof that he was Superman level. Even arguing that he's Bill level would be difficult. Yes, he's powerful, but he's not at Superman's level.
I was asking if you believed she was Superman's physical equal or not.
Originally posted by Philosophía
Superman is noticeably stronger than Supergirl, who is in the same vicinity with Wonder Woman and Power Girl [and also Thor and Beta Ray Bill]This is undisputable.
Agreed.
Originally posted by -Pr-I was asking if you believed she was Superman's physical equal or not.
Pre Gates. At least.
Post-Gates? Not so sure.
The versions of Kara 2004 to pre-Flashpoint/DCnU are probably nearly as different in many respects as Classic Juggernaut and current, or perhaps even any 2 versions of Hulk taken at random from the past decade and compared to one another.
Here's a question for you in turn, P.R.
(and thank you for answering my previous one).
At the beginning of the thread you picked Beta Ray Bill to win over Supergirl:
Originally posted by -Pr-
Bill, but not easily.
Yesterday, however, concerning a character Supergirl BEAT several times, you wrote the following:
Originally posted by -Pr-I honestly don't know which one would win ...
If I had to pick one, probably Ultraman, unless Bill's magic played a more major part.
Given that Supergirl has BEATEN Ultraman, several times,
but that you believe Ultraman would probably edge Bill out,
do you still believe Bill would beat Kara?
Why or why not?
Magic, tbh.
As far as why Ultraman could beat Bill? Ultraman's highs are high enough that, in a comic, I could easily see him being a match for Bill. I will admit, though, that my knowledge of Bill isn't as deep as say, my knowledge of Thor. And tbh, the more I think about it, the more I think that maybe I don't know who would win between Ultraman and Bill.
Long story short: I think Kara has to be at her best to be able to beat Bill, but I don't think the opposite is true. I'm not saying it'd be easy for Bill to beat her, just easier than it would be for her to beat him.
If that makes sense.
Originally posted by -Pr-my knowledge of Bill isn't as deep as say, my knowledge of Thor.
Long story short: I think Kara has to be at her best to be able to beat Bill, but I don't think the opposite is true. I'm not saying it'd be easy for Bill to beat her, just easier than it would be for her to beat him.
If that makes sense.
You're saying that Bill theoretically has more numerous and less effort-intensive options than Kara, thanks to Stormbreaker, which I agree with.
Truthfully, I am actually disappointed that no one from Beta Ray Bill's side has stepped forward to present what some of those options might be.
At the least it would have been nice if Jake had backed up his claim that Mjolnir and Stormbreaker come with "boomerang" protections for their owners.
That's not something anyone could figure out from a casual reading, after all ...
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