ROTS Mace Windu Vs AOTC/ROTS Count Dooku

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
If he didn't need them then why did he bring them to run interference? The novel makes it clear he was on the defensive and it was not going well for him. He was going to get overwhelmed in the sabers fight. So you're saying this is also non canon?

Watch the film. The droids didn't do anything at all. Kenobi flayed them in rapid succession while jogging up the stairs. When he tried reentering the battle, Dooku casually tooled he and Anakin simultaneously. Based on that, Dooku obviously didn't 'need' the droids-- he simply used them because, well, they were there. Nothing more.

Still waiting for evidence that Dooku's "trouncing" was effortless when both the script and book say otherwise.

Originally posted by Galan007
No one is saying that Dooku didn't want the droids to run a little interference-- they obviously entered the fray for a reason. However, that entire portion of the battle is a contradictory mess when compared to the film. There are inconsistencies left and right.

That said, some people are claiming that Dooku 'needed' the droids to intervene when they did, because he was desperate-- because he would have been overwhelmed by the duo had they not stalled Kenobi(even though Kenobi was not actively fighting when the droids were summoned, and even though the droids didn't stall him at all.) Clearly this couldn't be further from the truth, given the effortless manner in which Dooku simultaneously tooled Kenobi and Anakin atop the platform... Kenobi runs up the stairs after flaying the droids. Dooku force-chokes him, and donkey-kicks Anakin with sufficient force to incapacitate him for a good 10 seconds. Dooku hurls Kenobi across the room and drops a platform on him, which KO's him for the remainder of the fight.

Point: at that juncture of the battle, Dooku clearly held decisive control, and didn't really 'need' the droids for anything. He only lost said control when Anakin tapped his Christ Power.

Well, no, I'm not saying the droids provided much help. Hell, Kenobi cut them down in seconds, so, no, the droids didn't make a difference at all really. I agree with you there. The point I'm trying to make, is that Dooku was trying to keep Obi Wan away from the fight, and using the droids was just one tactic in doing so.

Originally posted by Galan007
I am certainly not comparing Dooku to Palpatine on any level. Rather, I'm comparing the method in which they fought multiple opponents in lightsaber combat. Palpatine opted to keep the Brothers separate during most of the battle so that he could engage them individually. Same coin, Dooku opted to keep Anakin and Kenobi separate during most of the battle so he could engage them individually.

What do you mean Palpatine separated the brothers during most of the battle? Are you referring to the constant physical attacks he was landed on them? If so, that hardly took any of them out of the fight (until his flip-kick put Savage on his ass). And nothing suggests that Palpatine needed to separate them, or that he even felt them as any kind of threat in pure sabers, otherwise he would have used the force a lot more than what he did, or just ended the fight completely with the force. The only time he used the force mid-duel, was when Maul came flying at him, right when he [Palpatine] was barely recovering from his little fancy flip with his lightsabers deactivated. Other than that, Palpatine was basically tooling them in pure sabers. Furthermore, if Palpatine wanted to, I believe he could have killed Savage in no time with his blade alone, considering that he blitzed through three "celebrated swordmasters" in seconds.

Dooku, on the otherhand, was using his command of the force to take Obi Wan completely out of the fight. Both times Kenobi entered the fight, it wasn't long until Dooku dispatched him with the force, and the novel suggests that this was because Dooku felt threatened in fighting both of them together. And I'm not seeing how the novel contradicts the movie as far as that is concerned.

Originally posted by Galan007
Can't blame Dooku for wanting to fight the duo singularly, though. After all, RotS Kenobi/Anakin>>Savage/Maul.

ROTS Kenobi/Anakin > Savage and Maul? I'd agree.

Kenobi and Anakin >> Savage and Maul? Doubt it. But that's a different argument that I don't really feel like debating about at the moment.

Originally posted by Galan007
If Palpatine were engaged in strict lightsaber combat with RotS Kenobi/Anakin, he would unquestionably separate them just as Dooku did.

Not anymore than he needed to separate Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto from Windu.

Kolar+Tiin+Fisto >>> Obi Wan

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And nothing suggests that Palpatine needed to separate them, or that he even felt them as any kind of threat in pure sabers, otherwise he would have used the force a lot more than what he did, or just ended the fight completely with the force.

And yeah, I know he could have tooled the Brothers with the force(I've said as much several times now.) A force battle, however, isn't what I've been talking about.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dooku, on the otherhand, was using his command of the force to take Obi Wan completely out of the fight. Both times Kenobi entered the fight, it wasn't long until Dooku dispatched him with the force, and the novel suggests that this was because Dooku felt threatened in fighting both of them together. And I'm not seeing how the novel contradicts the movie as far as that is concerned.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
ROTS Kenobi/Anakin > Savage and Maul? I'd agree.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not anymore than he needed to separate Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto from Windu.

Kolar+Tiin+Fisto >>> Obi Wan

That said, Palpatine opting not to separate the latter, has no bearing whatsoever on what he'd opt for with the former. Again: If Palpatine chose to separate Maul and Savage in a saber match, logic dictates that he would choose to separate Anakin and Kenobi in a saber match as well-- they are, afterall, a significantly better team.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Still waiting for evidence that Dooku's "trouncing" was effortless when both the script and book say otherwise.

Galan, respectfully, I think you're going out of your way to see conflict where there is none. No one is arguing that the novel's choreography is reflected in the film; what is being argued is that the atmosphere of the fight as depicted in the novel is reflected in the script (Dooku tiring, being driven back, i.e. not in control at all) and in the movie. The only thing you've proven is that the fight mechanics differ... but that was never in question. By your line of thinking here, pretty much every point you've ever raised about Mace vs. Sidious could be thrown out when you draw from the book. I think you agree that it would be silly to do so.

Recent canon shows Anakin giving Dooku all kinds of hell alone. The script and book indicate Dooku was losing the duel which is why he separated the two.

SIDIOUS_66's point regarding your comparison between the Sidious/Zabraks duel and this one is that Sidious was in truly effortless control the entire time... Dooku, on the other hand, was not and wasn't stomping anyone.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The script and book indicate Dooku was losing the duel which is why he separated the two.

Once more: Dooku did not use the droids out of desperation. He used them because they were there. Nothing more.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
SIDIOUS_66's point regarding your comparison between the Sidious/Zabraks duel and this one is that Sidious was in truly effortless control the entire time... Dooku, on the other hand, was not and wasn't stomping anyone.

I think you two are getting defensive because you think I'm comparing Dooku to Palpatine from a power/skill standpoint. I am most certainly not. I am merely comparing their respective battle tactics.

Dooku "tooling" them or "effortlessly trouncing" them suggests you do disagree with the notion that he was losing the fight.

Not being defensive, I know you recognize Dooku's inferiority to Sidious in all ways (something that continues to torment DOUBLE PENETRATED at night).

His point, like mine, is that Dooku separated his opponents out of necessity whereas Sidious did not.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Dooku "tooling" them or "effortlessly trouncing" them suggests you do disagree with the notion that he was losing the fight.

My posts on the matter should have made that clear.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not being defensive, I know you recognize Dooku's inferiority to Sidious in all ways (something that continues to torment DOUBLE PENETRATED at night).

Originally posted by The_Tempest
His point, like mine, is that Dooku separated his opponents out of necessity whereas Sidious did not.

Palps obviously didn't 'need' to separate the Bros, but he still did-- and if he was willing to separate Maul/Savage, he'd logically separate Anakin/Kenobi as well, given that they are a much more potent team-up. Again: not necessarily because he'd 'need' to, but because it would be the most logical/tactical decision to make.

Misunderstood you then, Galan. DP, you're still drunk on whatever kool-aid they sell round your way.

I'm not sure what the issue is here. Are people denying Dooku could have defeated them both?

I don't see the point in denying that after the choke/kick combo.

If your arguing he would have lost a strict Saber duel, then I agree, and never denied that.

As for the comparison to how difficult it was for Dooku compared to how easy it was for Sidious against Maul and Savage it's pointless because:

1. Dooku was taking on more powerful opponents.
2. We know Sidious is more powerful than Dooku anyway.

Doesn't change the fact that it was a damn impressive feat clearly putting Dooku > 8, (if that's the rating we are giving Kenobi and Skywalker at that point in the film).

Anakin seems to restrain himself a lot while fighting alongside Obi-Wan. In fact I don't remember any fight alongisde Kenobi where his performances are better than fighting alone.

Skywalker should be a clear 9, and imo, an 8 alongside Kenobi.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Anakin seems to restrain himself a lot while fighting alongside Obi-Wan. In fact I don't remember any fight alongisde Kenobi where his performances are better than fighting alone.

Skywalker should be a clear 9, and imo, an 8 alongside Kenobi.

That said, in order for Dooku to contend with 2 'near-9-duelists', he would logically have to be a solid low-level 9, imo.

Originally posted by Galan007
I think Kenobi is at the high-end of a level 8 (between 8.8-8.9.) I also believe that's where Anakin started. After tapping his Christ Power in the final moments of the battle, however, Anakin shot up to the high-end of a level 9, imo.

That said, in order for Dooku to contend with 2 'near-9-duelists', he would logically have to be a solid low-level 9, imo.

Considering Kenobi, I believe that the only thing stopping him from becoming level 9 duelist is his relatively weak connection to the Force when compared to the likes of Dooku, Sidious or Yoda.

If he had Force power comparable to Dooku, "the master of Soresu" would most certainly be a 9.

Originally posted by Galan007
I think Kenobi is at the high-end of a level 8 (between 8.8-8.9.) I also believe that's where Anakin started. After tapping his Christ Power in the final moments of the battle, however, Anakin shot up to the high-end of a level 9, imo.

That said, in order for Dooku to contend with 2 'near-9-duelists', he would logically have to be a solid low-level 9, imo.

Originally posted by Galan007
You're putting words in my mouth. I never said Palpatine 'needed' to separate the Brothers. I said he 'opted' to separate the Brothers-- and if he 'opted' to separate them, logic dictates that he would 'opt' to separate RotS Anakin/Kenobi as well(if he were to engage them in strict lightsaber combat, that is.) Why? Because RotS Anakin/Kenobi present a much bigger threat than Maul/Savage.

Originally posted by Galan007
You're putting words in my mouth yet again. Dooku clearly wanted to keep Kenobi and Anakin separate for a reason-- I've never questioned the fact that they were definitely a threat to him as a team. All I'm saying is that Dooku obviously wasn't as powerless as some have claimed when he summoned the droids, given how effortlessly he tooled the duo atop the platform immediately afterward

You're accusing me of something I haven't done. At no time in this debate have I put words in your mouth.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
His point, like mine, is that Dooku separated his opponents out of necessity whereas Sidious did not.

^This is basically what I was getting at, which is why I didn't understand why you would compare Palpatine separating the brothers to Dooku separating Anakin and Kenobi, unless you were suggesting that Dooku did not need to.

Originally posted by Galan007
And yeah, I know he could have tooled the Brothers with the force(I've said as much several times now.) A force battle, however, isn't what I've been talking about.

I know, I've read your thoughts on that fight. I was just using Palpatine's neglected use of the force to back up my point: Palpatine obviously did not feel as if he needed to separate them.

Originally posted by Galan007
Feat-wise, RotS Kenobi+Anakin>>>Kolar+Tiin+Fisto. Unarguable.

They have more feats, yeah. However Quantity is not always > quality.

However, I do agree that Anakin and Kenobi make a greater team than the three masters. Their combined feats suggest it, IMO. But that's beside the point, unless they have Windu alongside them.

Point is: if Palpatine didn't need to separate the three masters from Windu in order to kill all of them, then I'm not seeing why he would choose to separate Obi Wan from Anakin.

Originally posted by Galan007
That said, Palpatine opting not to separate the latter, has no bearing whatsoever on what he'd opt for with the former.

What? You're not even being reasonable really. I can basically say the same about your argument: Palpatine opting to separate the brothers has no bearing whatsoever on what he'd opt for with Anakin and Obi Wan.

Originally posted by Galan007
Again: If Palpatine chose to separate Maul and Savage in a saber match, logic dictates that he would choose to separate Anakin and Kenobi in a saber match as well-- they are, afterall, a significantly better team.

Logic did not dictate that chose to separate the three jedi masters from Windu.

In a vs. forum, I do not go by what a character might choose to do, I go by what the character is capable of doing. So unless I am to assume that Palpatine would toy around with Anakin and Obi Wan (the same way he was toying with the Maul & Savage), and trying not to kill one of them (the same way he wasn't trying to kill Maul), I don't see how Palpatine's fight with Maul and Savage has any bearing on what he would do to Anakin and Kenobi. And if he can kill three jedi master without separating them from Windu, I don't see why he wouldn't just cut down Kenobi mid-duel without opting to separate him from Anakin.

Originally posted by Galan007
I think you two are getting defensive because you think I'm comparing Dooku to Palpatine from a power/skill standpoint.

That's why this debate turned out the way it did. You're allowing your wrongful assumptions to interfere with the debate, and it's causing you to look past the point.

That said, I think I'll just leave this debate alone.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
something that continues to torment DOUBLE PENETRATED at night

lmao

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I personally disagree. After all Anakin has given Dooku extreme troubles so imo he should be a level 9. And Obi-Wan should be more like a 8.5 imo.

I believe he agrees Anakin can randomly go off into a level 9 mode anytime. He's just saying he starts off at a 8. Or started off at 8 in that fight anyway.

The script and the novel actually has him as already getting more powerful at the point where Dooku almost stomps him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
lmao

Yes very funny.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I believe he agrees Anakin can randomly go off into a level 9 mode anytime. He's just saying he starts off at a 8. Or started off at 8 in that fight anyway.

The script and the novel actually has him as already getting more powerful at the point where Dooku stomps him.

Which is why I suggested he isn't as powerful when fighting alongside Kenobi.

But just my opinion.

^ Yeah could be. We're told in the ROTS novel that it's his Jedi Restraint that holds back his power.

Skywalker's likely to be more concious about his Jedi Restraint with Kenobi there right by him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
They have more feats, yeah. However Quantity is not always > quality.

However, I do agree that Anakin and Kenobi make a greater team than the three masters. Their combined feats suggest it, IMO. But that's beside the point, unless they have Windu alongside them.

Point is: if Palpatine didn't need to separate the three masters from Windu in order to kill all of them, then I'm not seeing why he would choose to separate Obi Wan from Anakin.

Hell, Fisto contending with Grievous is likely the best single feat anyone on the 3-Jedi-team has-- yet he was still bested by Asajj. That said, Anakin/Kenobi(& Maul/Savage)>> a team of 3 'sub-Asajj-level' Jedi.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What? You're not even being reasonable really. I can basically say the same about your argument: Palpatine opting to separate the brothers has no bearing whatsoever on what he'd opt for with Anakin and Obi Wan.

Again, if Palps opted to separate Maul/Savage, he'd logically opt to separate RotS Kenobi/Anakin as well, given that they are superior to the Brothers overall. Again: not necessarily because he'd 'have' to, but because it would be the most logical/tactical decision to make.

...And he likely didn't opt to separate Fisto/Kolar/Tiin because, well, they weren't even a remote threat to him-- less than nothing, in fact. And while the same can be said about Maul/Savage, at least they put up a decent fight, and weren't flayed within a matter of seconds.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Logic did not dictate that chose to separate the three jedi masters from Windu.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That's why this debate turned out the way it did. You're allowing your wrongful assumptions to interfere with the debate, and it's causing you to look past the point.