Originally posted by Galan007
Feat-wise, RotS Anakin/Kenobi>Maul/Savage>>Fisto/Kolar/Tiin. This is unarguable, imo. If you have a problem accepting the Brothers' ranking, then all you need to do is look at how they compared to Palpatine, in relation to how Fisto/Kolar/Tiin compared to Palpatine.
Dave Filoni even flat out confirmed that just Opress's performance against Palpatine was better than Fisto/Kolar/Tiin.
Originally posted by Galan007
Feat-wise, RotS Anakin/Kenobi>Maul/Savage>>Fisto/Kolar/Tiin. This is unarguable, imo. If you have a problem accepting the Brothers' ranking, then all you need to do is look at how they compared to Palpatine, in relation to how Fisto/Kolar/Tiin compared to Palpatine.
Palpatine was actually trying to kill all three the masters (unlike he was trying to do to Maul), and there was nothing to suggest that he was toying with the jedi masters and enjoying himself as he was during his fight with Savage and Maul (as Filoni comfirms). Hell, even you suggested that his demeanor with Maul and Savage was different than with the three masters who accompanied Windu. To quote you:
Originally posted by Galan007
He really said that? What a tard. Meh, I guess in terms of how long they lasted, Savage did do better.However, the argument can be made that Palpatine's demeanor during those two fights was completely different. Against Savage and Maul, Palpatine appeared to be toying with them-- he was literally chuckling the entire time. Against the Jedi team, however, Palpatine was deadly serious and immediately went for killing strikes. Had Palps possessed the latter demeanor against the brothers, they(Savage for sure) likely would have met just as swift(if not swifter) of an end.
Is there a reason why your has stance changed? Or are you just desperate to win the debate?
Originally posted by Galan007
Hell, Fisto contending with Grievous is likely the best single feat anyone on the 3-Jedi-team has-- yet he was still bested by Asajj. That said, Anakin/Kenobi(& Maul/Savage)>> a team of 3 'sub-Asajj-level' Jedi.
Outduelling Grievous suggests that Fisto is at least on par with Kenobi, considering that Kenobi has consistently struggled with Grievous all throughout the clone wars, and has nearly lost a fight with the cyborg had it not been for his advantage of TK. And as far as Kit being bested by Ventress, so has Kenobi (twice already, as far as I can recall), and was humiliated by her a far worse than Fisto was.
Originally posted by Galan007
And he likely didn't opt to separate Fisto/Kolar/Tiin because, well, they weren't even a remote threat to him--
And Kenobi is? lol
Originally posted by Galan007
And while the same can be said about Maul/Savage, at least they put up a decent fight, and weren't flayed within a matter of seconds.
They lasted longer because Palpatine was toying with them and enjoying himself while doing so (according to Filoni). Furthermore, Palpatine wasn't even trying to kill Maul at all.
Originally posted by Galan007
Of course Palps didn't feel the need to separate them. Like I said above, Fisto was the biggest 'threat' on the team based on feats, yet his best 'feats' are contending with Grievous, and getting beaten by Asajj-- laughably insignificant in comparison to Palps. /shrug
All three of the masters were considered some of the orders greatest, one of them being at least on par with Kenobi. And Kolar has a pretty good feat of outright owning Quinlin Vos in a pure saber match.
Again: if Palpatine didn't need to separate the three masters from Windu, I don't see why you think he would opt to separate Kenobi from Anakin, unless you're suggesting that Kenobi poses a greater threat than all three sabermasters combined, in which case I don't see any reason to continue this with you, as that notion would be completely ridiculous, considering that Kenobi consistently struggled against the likes of Grievous (whom Kit casually beat in a saber duel), struggled against Vizsla, and as been humiliated by Ventress at least twice (one of the times being when he had aid from Skywalker).
I don't see any reason why Palpatine would choose to separate Kenobi from Anakin when he can just cut him down mid-duel, unless he's trying to needlessly prolong the fight. So again: unless Palpatine would toy with Anakin and Obi Wan, trying not to kill one of them, then I don't see how what he did to Maul and Savage has any bearing on what he would do to Anakin and Obi Wan.
Originally posted by Galan007
You, sir, are the root of these 'wrongful assumptions'. If you stop assuming, I can stop correcting. 😉
Is this one of those "NO U" moments?
This will be my final post on the subject. Frankly, our argument has become annoyingly circular...
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66My position was that Palpatine may have been holding back against the Brothers because he was lol'ing throughout the entire battle. However, someone pointed out that he was also lol'ing during his battle with Yoda-- so clearly his laughter isn't the best way to judge how much effort he is putting fourth in a given battle... Unless you are of the opinion that he was also toying with Yoda..?
Is there a reason why your has stance changed? Or are you just desperate to win the debate?
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66a.) Fisto was using Jar'Kai against GG, which gave him a decent advantage. He was not using it against Palps.
Outduelling Grievous suggests that Fisto is at least on par with Kenobi, considering that Kenobi has consistently struggled with Grievous all throughout the clone wars, and has nearly lost a fight with the cyborg had it not been for his advantage of TK. And as far as Kit being bested by Ventress, so has Kenobi (twice already, as far as I can recall), and was humiliated by her a far worse than Fisto was.
b.) Fisto most certainly did NOT 'outduel' Griveous-- chopping off an appendage=/=outdueling. Imo, they seemed relatively equal until some outside interference entered the fray... Kenobi, on the other hand, casually tooled Grievous in sabers. So based on their respective battles with Grievous, RotS Kenobi>Fisto. Not arguable.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66A better swordsman than anyone on the 3-Jedi team based on feats? Abso-friggin-lutely.
And Kenobi is? lol
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66See above. Either way, Palpatine was definitely/obviously trying to kill Savage, yet he still lasted much longer than the 3-Jedi team. He lasted much longer than all of that team put together, actually.
They lasted longer because Palpatine was toying with them and enjoying himself while doing so (according to Filoni). Furthermore, Palpatine wasn't even trying to kill Maul at all.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66They have done nothing that puts them on par with RotS Kenobi as swordsmen. Nothing/nada/zilch/zero.
All three of the masters were considered some of the orders greatest, one of them being at least on par with Kenobi. And Kolar has a pretty good feat of outright owning Quinlin Vos in a pure saber match.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66Lets try this again...
Again: if Palpatine didn't need to separate the three masters from Windu, I don't see why you think he would opt to separate Kenobi from Anakin, unless you're suggesting that Kenobi poses a greater threat than all three sabermasters combined, in which case I don't see any reason to continue this with you, as that notion would be completely ridiculous, considering that Kenobi consistently struggled against the likes of Grievous (whom Kit casually beat in a saber duel), struggled against Vizsla, and as been humiliated by Ventress at least twice (one of the times being when he had aid from Skywalker).I don't see any reason why Palpatine would choose to separate Kenobi from Anakin when he can just cut him down mid-duel, unless he's trying to needlessly prolong the fight. So again: unless Palpatine would toy with Anakin and Obi Wan, trying not to kill one of them, then I don't see how what he did to Maul and Savage has any bearing on what he would do to Anakin and Obi Wan.
Anakin/Kenobi>Maul/Savage. You've already agreed with this. That said, if Palpatine opted to separate the latter team, he would LOGICALLY opt to separate the former team as well. You're making this harder than it needs to be.
Originally posted by Galan007
I've not argued otherwise. All I am saying is that when Dooku had the droids attack Kenobi, he [Dooku] was obviously not as 'desperate' as some have claimed, given how casually he tooled the duo immediately after Kenobi slew the droids and reentered the battle(ie. force-choke+donkey-kick.)Once more: Dooku did not use the droids out of desperation. He used them because they were there. Nothing more.
Neither of you are understanding my point, apparently. Again: I am simply saying that the method in which Palpatine battled Maul/Savage(ie. separating them) is the same method that Dooku used against Anakin/Kenobi.
I think you two are getting defensive because you think I'm comparing Dooku to Palpatine from a power/skill standpoint. I am most certainly not. I am merely comparing their respective battle tactics.
Well Kinda big buddy... you have also been arguing against the canonicty of Dooku calling on the droids... Which most seem to view as canon.
Originally posted by Galan007
My position was that Palpatine may have been holding back against the Brothers because he was lol'ing throughout the entire battle. However, someone pointed out that he was also lol'ing during his battle with Yoda-- so clearly his laughter isn't the best way to judge how much effort he is putting fourth in a given battle... Unless you are of the opinion that he was also toying with Yoda..?
Except that Sidious was not lol'ing throughout his entire duel with Yoda. From the time their blades met, he laughed twice, that I remember. The first time was during the beginning of their duel, but as they were deep into their saber duel, his laughter quickly turned to visible signs of struggle, frustration and worry. The second time he laughed was during the senate pod sequence, in which Sidious had the clear advantage over Yoda. Other than that, Sidious showed more signs or struggle against Yoda than anything else. And I also do no recall Lucas saying Sidious was kicking Yoda's butt, and enjoying himself while doing so.
During his fight with Maul and Savage, Sidious was all smiles and grins, he seemed very relaxed, and on top of that, we have Filoni outright stating that Sidious was enjoying himself during that battle, which would only make sense that Sidious would want to prolong his enjoyment. Hell, even during his one-on-one duel with Savage, Sidious had his sabers deactivated for some time, and was pulling unnecessary stunts with his back turned to Savage, which further suggests that that fight was only prolonged because Sidious wanted it that way.
Originally posted by Galan007
a.) Fisto was using Jar'Kai against GG, which gave him a decent advantage.
Fisto was not using JarKai during the beginning, and was still able to quickly disarm Grievous of one saber, which suggests that Kit really did not need two sabers in order to best Grievous. And if it was so easy to just take a saber from Grievous, then why hasn't Kenobi done it during his many struggles against the cyborg?
Originally posted by Galan007
He was not using it against Palps.
No, but it was Fisto+Tiin+Kolar.
Fisto+Tiin+Kolar >>> Fisto with two sabers.
Originally posted by Galan007
Fisto most certainly did NOT 'outduel' Griveous-- chopping off an appendage=/=outdueling. Imo, they seemed relatively equal until some outside interference entered the fray...
He chopped off one of Grievous's arms and then proceeded to force him on the defensive throughout most of the duel, causing Grievous to rely on help. Also Fisto's attitute in that duel, IMO, suggested that he was even toying with Grievous (after flooring Grievous with a force push, he stands over him smiling, allowing Grievous to get back on his feet).
Originally posted by Galan007
Kenobi, on the other hand, casually tooled Grievous in sabers.
Kenobi handily defeated Grievous, but there was nothing casual about it, as the novel states that Grievous's speed was overwhelming Kenobi's defense.
Originally posted by Galan007
So based on their respective battles with Grievous, RotS Kenobi>Fisto. Not arguable.
No, based on their respective battles against Grievous, ROTS Kenobi most certainly did not do much better than Fisto, despite having far more experience with an opponent like Grievous, something most jedi did not have.
And by your logic, ROTS Kenobi did not outduel Grievous either, since you're claiming that chopping off an appendage =/= outduelling, unless you're suggesting that one has to chop off at least two appendages for it to be considered outduelling. Because if I remember correctly, Kenobi only chopped off two appendages, and ended their duel with a force push, which disarmed Grievous of the rest of his sabers.
Originally posted by Galan007
A better swordsman than anyone on the 3-Jedi team based on feats? Abso-friggin-lutely.
He's not much better than Fisto based on their performances against Grievous. And he is most certainly not better than all three of jedi masters put together.
Yes, Kenobi has more feats than any of them, but he also has more feats than Yoda. Having more feats does not make one better than another.
Originally posted by Galan007
See above. Either way, Palpatine was definitely/obviously trying to kill Savage, yet he still lasted much longer than the 3-Jedi team. He lasted much longer than all of that team put together, actually.
Yeah, he definitely wanted to kill Savage, but he was clearly in no hurry to do it, because he was enjoying himself.
Originally posted by Galan007
They have done nothing that puts them on par with RotS Kenobi as swordsmen. Nothing/nada/zilch/zero.
Fisto's performance against Grievous suggests that he is on par with ROTS Kenobi. He is certainly not much below Obi Wan.
Kolar stomped Quinlan, but I'm not sure how good Quinlan is, TBH, so I don't no where that feat would put Kolar. But I do know that him, along with the other two who were with Windu, was considered some of the orders greatest.
Originally posted by Galan007
Lets try this again...
Yes, for the last time.
If Sidious can kill three sabermasters without having to separate them from Windu, then I'm not seeing why you assume he would opt to separate Obi Wan from Anakin, unless you are suggesting that Kenobi poses a greater threat than all three sabermasters put together, which would be a rather ridiculous claim.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66My opinion has been given. Don't care if you agree, tbh. Clearly laughter alone isn't a proper way to gauge how much effort Palps is putting into a battle.
Except that Sidious was not lol'ing throughout his entire duel with Yoda. From the time their blades met, he laughed twice, that I remember. The first time was during the beginning of their duel, but as they were deep into their saber duel, his laughter quickly turned to visible signs of struggle, frustration and worry. The second time he laughed was during the senate pod sequence, in which Sidious had the clear advantage over Yoda. Other than that, Sidious showed more signs or struggle against Yoda than anything else. And I also do no recall Lucas saying Sidious was kicking Yoda's butt, and enjoying himself while doing so.During his fight with Maul and Savage, Sidious was all smiles and grins, he seemed very relaxed, and on top of that, we have Filoni outright stating that Sidious was enjoying himself during that battle, which would only make sense that Sidious would want to prolong his enjoyment. Hell, even during his one-on-one duel with Savage, Sidious had his sabers deactivated for some time, and was pulling unnecessary stunts with his back turned to Savage, which further suggests that that fight was only prolonged because Sidious wanted it that way.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66Fisto disarmed GG with one saber. Then, even when he began utilizing Jar'Kai, could only stalemate GG in a strict duel-- he gained no clear advantage:
Fisto was not using JarKai during the beginning, and was still able to quickly disarm Grievous of one saber, which suggests that Kit really did not need two sabers in order to best Grievous. And if it was so easy to just take a saber from Grievous, then why hasn't Kenobi done it during his many struggles against the cyborg?
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66You're missing the point entirely.
Fisto+Tiin+Kolar >>> Fisto with two sabers.
Feat-wise, Anakin/Kenobi>Maul/Savage>Fisto/Tiin/Kolar. If you disagree, I encourage you to post evidence(not your opinion) to the contrary. If you still refrain from doing so in your subsequent post, I'll take it as your concession that no such evidence exists. Simple. 🙂
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66Fisto disarmed GG, and only managed to stalemate him in sabers with Jai'Kai. Ergo, Kenobi did much better against GG, ergo RotS Kenobi>Fisto.
Kenobi handily defeated Grievous, but there was nothing casual about it, as the novel states that Grievous's speed was overwhelming Kenobi's defense.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66Never said he was, bud. I said he's better than any one of them-- which he IS.
And he is most certainly not better than all three of jedi masters put together.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66The hell? Yoda's feats >>> Kenobi's. That's why Yoda>>>Kenobi. Lmao. srsly
Yes, Kenobi has more feats than any of them, but he also has more feats than Yoda. Having more feats does not make one better than another.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66iyo.
Yeah, he definitely wanted to kill Savage, but he was clearly in no hurry to do it, because he was enjoying himself.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66You.Just.Don't.Get.It. none
Yes, for the last time.If Sidious can kill three sabermasters without having to separate them from Windu, then I'm not seeing why you assume he would opt to separate Obi Wan from Anakin, unless you are suggesting that Kenobi poses a greater threat than all three sabermasters put together, which would be a rather ridiculous claim.
If Palpatine separated an inferior team(Maul/Savage), he'd logically separate a team that is superior to the Brothers(Anakin/Kenobi.)
Why are you making this so hard?
You appear to have had a complete 180 about Kit and Obi-Wan recently.
Galan007
My position was that Palpatine may have been holding back against the Brothers because he was lol'ing throughout the entire battle. However, someone pointed out that he was also lol'ing during his battle with Yoda-- so clearly his laughter isn't the best way to judge how much effort he is putting fourth in a given battle... Unless you are of the opinion that he was also toying with Yoda..?
Palpatine most certainly was toying with Yoda... at certain parts of the duel. Namely the beginning, where Yoda is unconscious and helpless and Palpatine refuses to press his advantage. And again when Yoda is struggling to stop and reverse the Senate pod and Palpatine again laughs his ass off rather than respond.
The critical difference between Sidious's fight with Yoda and his fight with the Zabraks is that Yoda was shown to have the upper hand against Sidious at various points whereas the Zabraks never did. Sidious laughed when he had a clear advantage: with Yoda, his advantage was momentary and transient; with the brothers, his advantage was permanent.
Galan007
b.) Fisto most certainly did NOT 'outduel' Griveous-- chopping off an appendage=/=outdueling.
Then how do you determine that ROTS Obi-Wan "outdueled" Grievous?
Originally posted by The_TempestOkay?
Palpatine most certainly was toying with Yoda... at certain parts of the duel. Namely the beginning, where Yoda is unconscious and helpless and Palpatine refuses to press his advantage. And again when Yoda is struggling to stop and reverse the Senate pod and Palpatine again laughs his ass off rather than respond.The critical difference between Sidious's fight with Yoda and his fight with the Zabraks is that Yoda was shown to have the upper hand against Sidious at various points whereas the Zabraks never did. Sidious laughed when he had a clear advantage: with Yoda, his advantage was momentary and transient; with the brothers, his advantage was permanent.
Originally posted by The_TempestI said that Kenobi "did much better against GG [than Fisto]", which is correct.
Then how do you determine that ROTS Obi-Wan "outdueled" Grievous?
Like I said above: after de-handing GG the first time, Fisto only managed to stalemate him throughout the remainder of their battle-- even with Jar'Kai, he gained no sort of advantage in strict saber combat. Kenobi, on the other hand, was shown as having the clear advantage over Grievous during their saber battle(the novel tells us as much)-- ergo my opinion that Kenobi>Fisto. I'm not saying they are worlds apart, mind you, but Kenobi is most definitely superior.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Well Kinda big buddy... you have also been arguing against the canonicty of Dooku calling on the droids...
He never shouted for their help! Watch the movie.. And they were hardly even a distraction to Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Which most seem to view as canon.
If your talking about him shouting for the droids then no that's not canon as it's not in the movie. And we see/hear the whole fight.
If your claiming he made a hand gesture (which we don't see either) then that's possible. But what's your point? They were hardly even a distraction to Kenobi, and Dooku went on to almost defeat both Kenobi and Skywalker together.
Originally posted by Galan007
Okay?
Just pointing out that someone arguing Sidious was toying with Yoda isn't exactly wrong.
Originally posted by Galan007
I said that Kenobi "did much better against GG [than Fisto]", which is correct.Like I said above: after de-handing GG the first time, Fisto only managed to stalemate him throughout the remainder of their battle-- even with Jar'Kai, he gained no sort of advantage in strict saber combat. Kenobi, on the other hand, was shown as having the clear advantage over Grievous during their saber battle(the novel tells us as much)-- ergo my opinion that Kenobi>Fisto. I'm not saying they are worlds apart, mind you, but Kenobi is most definitely superior.
I gather. But you're moving the goalpost here. Kit disarmed Grievous, which doesn't count as "outdueling him"... but then how did Obi-Wan "tool" Grievous?
Originally posted by The_TempestOkay?
Just pointing out that someone arguing Sidious was toying with Yoda isn't exactly wrong.
Originally posted by The_TempestBecause Kit only managed a stalemate after de-handeing GG initially. Conversely, Kenobi gained the advantage initially, and then continued gaining ground until GG retreated. A clear advantage>a stalemate. Ergo, Kenobi>Fisto.
I gather. But you're moving the goalpost here. Kit disarmed Grievous, which doesn't count as "outdueling him"... but then how did Obi-Wan "tool" Grievous?
Originally posted by Galan007
Okay?
You brought it up? And contested it? Sorry for addressing it?
Originally posted by Galan007
Because Kit only managed a stalemate after de-handeing GG initially. Conversely, Kenobi gained the advantage initially, and then continued gaining ground until GG retreated. A clear advantage>a stalemate. Ergo, Kenobi>Fisto.
Kit drove Grievous back the entire time until the MagnaGuards arrived? Conversely, Grievous and Obi-Wan exchanged the offensive more than once? Grievous put Obi-Wan on the defensive in between losing lightsabers? And then won their saber lock until the clones arrived? Then Obi-Wan decided to use the Force? The clear advantage you ascribe to their duel actually doesn't exist if you watch the duel and compare it to Kit's? Grievous only ran when Obi-Wan used the Force? Not to mention told his droids to back off and let him handle Obi-Wan alone? Meanwhile, Grievous summoned support against Kit? If Obi-Wan performed better than Kit (and that's a big 'if'😉, it wasn't by much at all?
Originally posted by The_TempestI didn't bring it up, actually. I never contested it. I merely stated why my opinion had changed. Copy?
You brought it up? And contested it? Sorry for addressing it?
Originally posted by The_TempestKit gained almost no ground in sabers. Kenobi, at very least, gained more ground-- therefore Kenobi>Fisto. It's really as simple as that. 👆
Kit drove Grievous back the entire time until the MagnaGuards arrived? Conversely, Grievous and Obi-Wan exchanged the offensive more than once? Grievous put Obi-Wan on the defensive in between losing lightsabers? And then won their saber lock until the clones arrived? Then Obi-Wan decided to use the Force? The clear advantage you ascribe to their duel actually doesn't exist if you watch the duel and compare it to Kit's? Grievous only ran when Obi-Wan used the Force?
Originally posted by Galan007
Never contested it. I merely stated why my opinion had changed. Copy?
Galan007
someone pointed out that he was also lol'ing during his battle with Yoda-- so clearly his laughter isn't the best way to judge how much effort he is putting fourth in a given battle... Unless you are of the opinion that he was also toying with Yoda..?
I was addressing this? Your post suggested that someone opining that Sidious toying with Yoda would be making an egregious assumption? I merely pointed out that that suggestion is false and that Sidious was very obviously toying with Yoda at critical points in the duel? Copy?
Originally posted by Galan007
Kit gained almost no ground in sabers. Kenobi, at very least, gained more ground-- therefore Kenobi>Fisto. It's really as simple as that. 👆
Kit consistently drove Grievous from :55 to 1:18, with two near hits?
Meanwhile, Grievous was on the offensive from 1:52 to 2:15? He lost it temporarily at 2:18-2:21? After losing his first saber, he regains the offensive from 2:25 to 2:35 and then wins their saberlock, shoving Obi-Wan back, at 2:39? After that, the clones arrive and Obi-Wan "wins" the duel by using the Force?
In what possible way does this demonstrate a clear advantage for Obi-Wan?
Originally posted by ares834
The obvious answer is he cut off two of Grevious's hands.
Originally posted by ares834
And while you are correct that Kenobi was on the defensive at times, one must remember that that is his style.
One does remember. But one should also remember that Obi-Wan doesn't always fight defensively. Otherwise, one must ask why he'd try to go on the offensive at all, ever.