I'd been perusing through interviews of Matt Stover about the ROTS novel. People should read one of the better ones, which details how ruthlessly Lucas was in ensuring the validity of the novel. Barring truly irreconcilable differences (of which there are few), the book is as authoritative as it gets.
Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not saying that Dooku didn't want the droids to interfere. I'm saying that the novel's description of said interference doesn't mesh with what we see in the film. The novel states that Dooku TOLD the droids to attack-- we never saw or heard such an order given. The novel states that the droids opened fire on Anakin before Kenobi flayed them-- we never saw or heard any of this alleged blaster fire. Those two instances are, very clearly, non-canon, as they are in direct conflict with the film.Now, I'm also not saying that the duo(primarily Anakin) weren't giving Dooku hell-- they obviously were(he kept separating them for a reason, after all.) However, this tactic isn't uncommon when Sith face multiple foes-- Palpatine repeatedly separated Maul and Savage as well.
ermm
Then what's your point? KT's argument (that Dooku was not stomping anyone [which he wasn't]) does not hinge on the novel's strict interpretation of events. Just as your many arguments about Palpatine, Mace, Vaapad, and shatterpoint don't hinge on the novel's depiction of the fight, which differs radically from what we see in the film.
As Stover explains, the book was exhaustively, ruthlessly, thoroughly examined and corrected by Lucas to be a reconcilable supplement to the movie. The overall thrust of the book's interpretation of the fight is thus: Anakin and Obi-Wan, with improved skills and working in collusion, are far too much for Dooku to even hope to defeat unaided. He separates them out of necessity. He might not have shouted for the guards, he might have ordered them before he crossed the threshold to open fire when it appeared as though he were losing.
But the fact remains that KT's point is absolutely valid: a guy kicking ass and taking names doesn't need backup. Dooku did. And that is why the guards took their shots as Dooku was driven back.
And comparing Dooku's brawl with Sidious's and the Zabraks is disingenuous. Sidious could have ended that fight whenever he pleased, their combined efforts be damned: We saw him pin the brothers effortlessly and simultaneously. Dooku, on the other hand, has been consistently winded bringing down Anakin alone. He was on borrowed time fighting the two together, it's inarguable.
Originally posted by The_TempestThe 'point' is simply that this portion of the novel is primarily non-canon, as it wildly contradicts what we saw in the film:
ermmThen what's your point? KT's argument (that Dooku was not stomping anyone [which he wasn't]) does not hinge on the novel's strict interpretation of events. Just as your many arguments about Palpatine, Mace, Vaapad, and shatterpoint don't hinge on the novel's depiction of the fight, which differs radically from what we see in the film.
As Stover explains, the book was exhaustively, ruthlessly, thoroughly examined and corrected by Lucas to be a reconcilable supplement to the movie. The overall thrust of the book's interpretation of the fight is thus: Anakin and Obi-Wan, with improved skills and working in collusion, are far too much for Dooku to even hope to defeat unaided. He separates them out of necessity. He might not have shouted for the guards, he might have ordered them before he crossed the threshold to open fire when it appeared as though he were losing.
But the fact remains that KT's point is absolutely valid: a guy kicking ass and taking names doesn't need backup. Dooku did. And that is why the guards took their shots as Dooku was driven back.
"That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat. "Guards!" he said to the pair of super battle droids that still stood at attention to either side of the entrance. "Open fire!" Instantly the two droids sprang forward and lifted their hands. Energy hammered out from the heavy blasters built into their arms; Skywalker whirled and his blade batted every blast back at the droids, whose mirror-polished carapace armor deflected the bolts again. Galvened particle beams screeched through the room in blinding ricochets. Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku[...]" - RotS
Here's the entire battle scene from the film itself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmIkpRkgaZk
1.) In the film, Dooku went up the stairs first. He did not scurry up them "behind Skywalker", as the novel states.
2.) In the film, Dooku did not "shoot up the stairs like a torpedo", as the novel states. To the contrary, he and Anakin battled one another whilst walking up the stairs.
3.) In the film, Dooku never shouted: "Guards, open fire!"
4.) In the film, the droids did not open fire on Anakin prior to firing on Kenobi.
Did Dooku want the droids to run a little interference? Sure. Was he as desperate as the novel makes him sound? Obviously not. Even after Kenobi flayed the droids and [re]entered the fray atop the platform, Dooku took him out of the battle for good after swatting Anakin aside with a casual donkey-kick.
Originally posted by The_TempestPalpatine could have absolutely ended the Brothers with the force on a whim. However, he opted to engage them primarily in lightsaber combat-- and whilst battling them in this manner, he opted to keep them separate. Same coin, Dooku opted to separate Anakin and Kenobi. It is a very smart tactic to use if you're battling multiple opponents with a high-level of skill.
And comparing Dooku's brawl with Sidious's and the Zabraks is disingenuous. Sidious could have ended that fight whenever he pleased, their combined efforts be damned: We saw him pin the brothers effortlessly and simultaneously. Dooku, on the other hand, has been consistently winded bringing down Anakin alone. He was on borrowed time fighting the two together, it's inarguable.
So again, is it your stance that we threw out all portions of the novel where it expands upon ideas and thoughts that weren't expressed verballly? is that yoru stance?
However my friend you have contradicted yourself... in the movie we don't see Palps move as fast as the novel describes hiim doing to slay the three jedi masters. In fact, the whole fight between Mace and Sis after that isn't at the speed the novel describes.. So according to you.. we should thrwo that out because the movie didn't visualize it that way? Same with Kenobi chasing after Maul and Jinn... The novel desribes him using his force speed to catch up to them.. in the movie we see him running like a normal human. This isn't a contradiction... the movie just doens't in pretty much all situations show fights as fast as they could be shown. Doesn't mean it's a contradiction.
As you admit, dooku needed the droids and wanted the droids to interfere... so how then his him calling up what you say was his intention a contradiction? That makes no senes. You agree he wanted them to interfere.. brought them there to interfere... yet don't like that he called for the interference..ummm okay....
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So again, is it your stance that we threw out all portions of the novel where it expands upon ideas and thoughts that weren't expressed verballly? is that yoru stance?However my friend you have contradicted yourself... in the movie we don't see Palps move as fast as the novel describes hiim doing to slay the three jedi masters. In fact, the whole fight between Mace and Sis after that isn't at the speed the novel describes.. So according to you.. we should thrwo that out because the movie didn't visualize it that way? Same with Kenobi chasing after Maul and Jinn... The novel desribes him using his force speed to catch up to them.. in the movie we see him running like a normal human. This isn't a contradiction... the movie just doens't in pretty much all situations show fights as fast as they could be shown. Doesn't mean it's a contradiction.
As you admit, dooku needed the droids and wanted the droids to interfere... so how then his him calling up what you say was his intention a contradiction? That makes no senes. You agree he wanted them to interfere.. brought them there to interfere... yet don't like that he called for the interference..ummm okay....
What is this? Jedi have FTL reflexes and supersonic-hypersonic+ movement speeds, if they did this on screen you wouldn't see anything.
Originally posted by Galan007
Palpatine could have absolutely ended the Brothers with the force on a whim. However, he opted to engage them primarily in lightsaber combat-- and whilst battling them in this manner, he opted to keep them separate. Same coin, Dooku opted to separate Anakin and Kenobi. It is a very smart tactic to use if you're battling multiple opponents with a high-level of skill.
Dooku opted to separate them because he didn't want them separating his head from his body. He never, ever, ever would have had a chance of winning had he continued to engage them together. Even apart we see what happens to him.
Originally posted by Ascendancy
Dooku opted to separate them because he didn't want them separating his head from his body. He never, ever, ever would have had a chance of winning had he continued to engage them together. Even apart we see what happens to him.
Originally posted by Ascendancy
He never, ever, ever would have had a chance of winning had he continued to engage them together.
How can you say that when he did almost defeat them together? If not for wasting time throwing a platform on Kenobi, and not for Anakin going into a super Jedi mode, the 2 of them were pretty finished.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So again, is it your stance that we threw out all portions of the novel where it expands upon ideas and thoughts that weren't expressed verballly? is that yoru stance?
There was nothing to expand on apart from their thoughts. Fact is in the HIGHEST FORM OF CANON (like you always like to shout) Dooku never shouted to his guards for help.
Dooku humiliated both these great heroes of the Clone Wars simultaneously.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
However my friend you have contradicted yourself... in the movie we don't see Palps move as fast as the novel describes hiim doing to slay the three jedi masters. In fact, the whole fight between Mace and Sis after that isn't at the speed the novel describes.. So according to you.. we should thrwo that out because the movie didn't visualize it that way? Same with Kenobi chasing after Maul and Jinn... The novel desribes him using his force speed to catch up to them.. in the movie we see him running like a normal human. This isn't a contradiction... the movie just doens't in pretty much all situations show fights as fast as they could be shown. Doesn't mean it's a contradiction.
It's been established many times that the speed we see them fighting is not their actual speed. Otherwise Mace and Palps are slow pokes.
The contradiction in the novel is that Mace sliced Palps Lightsaber. Didn't happen in TEH HIGHEST FORM OF CANON.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiMy stance is that portions of the novel that overtly contradict what happens in the film are non-canon. Simple.
So again, is it your stance that we threw out all portions of the novel where it expands upon ideas and thoughts that weren't expressed verballly? is that yoru stance?
I pointed out 4(FOUR) novel/film inconsistencies from that single portion of the battle in my previous post. That's a lot.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
What is this? Jedi have FTL reflexes and supersonic-hypersonic+ movement speeds, if they did this on screen you wouldn't see anything.
Thanks for agreeing with my point... That doesn't mean the novel description is non canon just because ti doesn't show them moving at said speeds
Yes the Dooku vs Anakin and Kenobi battle actually has the most inconsistencies in the whole novel.
And considering we see/hear the whole fight, there's just no way to meld all those inconsistencies. They are basically different fights.
Conclusion- Go by what we saw/heard on screen. The novel (in this case) can only expand on things we don't see/hear, like the replenshing of Force reserves. Or Dooku realizing he's completely outmatched once Anakin goes into uber mode and Anakin's perfect clarity of mind.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERExactly.
Yes the Dooku vs Anakin and Kenobi battle actually has the most inconsistencies in the whole novel.And considering we see/hear the whole fight, there's just no way to meld all those inconsistencies. They are basically different fights.
Conclusion- Go by what we saw/heard on screen. The novel (in this case) can only expand on things we don't see/hear, like the replenshing of Force reserves. Or Dooku realizing he's completely outmatched once Anakin goes into uber mode and Anakin's perfect clarity of mind.
If I remember correctly, in one of his fights with Anakin in TWC, Dooku used a hand gesture and the magnaguards intervened right after. I don't why he couldn't have done the same to the battle droids. They were there with Dooku from the time he walked in to confront Anakin and Kenobi, but did not interfere until Dooku started to retreat up the stairs and forced pushed Kenobi down them, and I seriously doubt the droids just suddenly took it upon themselves to stroll down the stairs and open fire on Kenobi, unless Dooku somehow commanded them to do so. The novel makes it clear that Dooku used his command of the force and relied on the droids in order to keep Obi Wan away because he felt Kenobi posed a threat while fighting alongside Anakin. And that's exactly what we see in the movie: we see Dooku use TK on Obi Wan to keep him away, and we see battle droids interfering. The only contradiction, in my opinion, are the details on how it happened, not why it happened.
As for Sidious fight with Maul and Savage, he used the force offensively only once in mid-duel (other than pulling them off the balcony as he was falling, which I'm sure most would agree that it wasn't to separate them), and if he wanted to he, could have, at any time, easily overpowered them similtaneously with the force, but he instead decided to continue to engage them in sabers, which suggests that he didn't find them a threat in a pure saber battle. On the otherhand, nothing suggests that Dooku could have easily overpowered both Anakin and Kenobi with the force at the same time the way Sidious can with the brothers, but he was capable of easily dismissing Kenobi with the force, and that's exactly what he kept doing, and the novel suggest that this was because Kenobi posed a threat to him while fighting alongside Anakin.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERSo then Dooku saying that is perfectly valid... We didn't see him or hear him say that.. and you just said the novel can fill i nthose blanks.. It's really silly point you guys are trying to argue.. THINK ABOUT IT...
Yes the Dooku vs Anakin and Kenobi battle actually has the most inconsistencies in the whole novel.And considering we see/hear the whole fight, there's just no way to meld all those inconsistencies. They are basically different fights.
Conclusion- Go by what we saw/heard on screen. The novel (in this case) can only expand on things we don't see/hear, like the replenshing of Force reserves. Or Dooku realizing he's completely outmatched once Anakin goes into uber mode and Anakin's perfect clarity of mind.
Oohhh I agree Dooku had the guards there to intervene in the fight.. that is why he had him there.. he wanted them to.. YET.. you have an issue with him calling them in.. WTF.. I mean really WTF... That makes ZERO logical sense. He wanted them to interfere by your own admission.. yet he can't call for them to do that... Jesus H. Christ. Desperate reaching going on here.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If I remember correctly, in one of his fights with Anakin in TWC, Dooku used a hand gesture and the magnaguards intervened right after. I don't why he couldn't have done the same to the battle droids. They were there with Dooku from the time he walked in to confront Anakin and Kenobi, but did not interfere until Dooku started to retreat up the stairs and forced pushed Kenobi down them, and I seriously doubt the droids just suddenly took it upon themselves to stroll down the stairs and open fire on Kenobi, unless Dooku somehow commanded them to do so. The novel makes it clear that Dooku used his command of the force and relied on the droids in order to keep Obi Wan away because he felt Kenobi posed a threat while fighting alongside Anakin. And that's exactly what we see in the movie: we see Dooku use TK on Obi Wan to keep him away, and we see battle droids interfering. The only contradiction, in my opinion, are the details on how it happened, not why it happened.As for Sidious fight with Maul and Savage, he used the force offensively only once in mid-duel (other than pulling them off the balcony as he was falling, which I'm sure most would agree that it wasn't to separate them), and if he wanted to he, could have, at any time, easily overpowered them similtaneously with the force, but he instead decided to continue to engage them in sabers, which suggests that he didn't find them a threat in a pure saber battle. On the otherhand, nothing suggests that Dooku could have easily overpowered both Anakin and Kenobi with the force at the same time the way Sidious can with the brothers, but he was capable of easily dismissing Kenobi with the force, and that's exactly what he kept doing, and the novel suggest that this was because Kenobi posed a threat to him while fighting alongside Anakin.
Exactly... it's not non canon him caling on the droids.. that is just plain silly. He wants them there to intervene.. he wants them there to seperate them.. yet when the novel says he calls upon them... NO NO NO non canon we didn't hear him say that... :facepalm: Let's just throw out ALL portions of the novel that are directly spoken in the movie.. that is what you're suggesting here. The novel was meticulously gone over by Lucas to throw out any inconsistencies... That wasn't thrown out.. just like many parts weren't thrown out that were an expansion on thoughts not spoken or ideas not spoken... Those are canon... Just because they weren't said in the movie doesn't make them non canon.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66No one is saying that Dooku didn't want the droids to run a little interference-- they obviously entered the fray for a reason. However, that entire portion of the battle is a contradictory mess when compared to the film. There are inconsistencies left and right.
If I remember correctly, in one of his fights with Anakin in TWC, Dooku used a hand gesture and the magnaguards intervened right after. I don't why he couldn't have done the same to the battle droids. They were there with Dooku from the time he walked in to confront Anakin and Kenobi, but did not interfere until Dooku started to retreat up the stairs and forced pushed Kenobi down them, and I seriously doubt the droids just suddenly took it upon themselves to stroll down the stairs and open fire on Kenobi, unless Dooku somehow commanded them to do so. The novel makes it clear that Dooku used his command of the force and relied on the droids in order to keep Obi Wan away because he felt Kenobi posed a threat while fighting alongside Anakin. And that's exactly what we see in the movie: we see Dooku use TK on Obi Wan to keep him away, and we see battle droids interfering. The only contradiction, in my opinion, are the details on how it happened, not why it happened.
That said, some people are claiming that Dooku 'needed' the droids to intervene when they did, because he was desperate-- because he would have been overwhelmed by the duo had they not stalled Kenobi(even though Kenobi was not actively fighting when the droids were summoned, and even though the droids didn't stall him at all.) Clearly this couldn't be further from the truth, given the effortless manner in which Dooku simultaneously tooled Kenobi and Anakin atop the platform... Kenobi runs up the stairs after flaying the droids. Dooku force-chokes him, and donkey-kicks Anakin with sufficient force to incapacitate him for a good 10 seconds. Dooku hurls Kenobi across the room and drops a platform on him, which KO's him for the remainder of the fight.
Point: at that juncture of the battle, Dooku clearly held decisive control, and didn't really 'need' the droids for anything. He only lost said control when Anakin tapped his Christ Power.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66I am certainly not comparing Dooku to Palpatine on any level. Rather, I'm comparing the method in which they fought multiple opponents in lightsaber combat. Palpatine opted to keep the Brothers separate during most of the battle so that he could engage them individually. Same coin, Dooku opted to keep Anakin and Kenobi separate during most of the battle so he could engage them individually. Can't blame Dooku for wanting to fight the duo singularly, though. After all, RotS Kenobi/Anakin>>Savage/Maul. If Palpatine were engaged in strict lightsaber combat with RotS Kenobi/Anakin, he would unquestionably separate them just as Dooku did.
As for Sidious fight with Maul and Savage, he used the force offensively only once in mid-duel (other than pulling them off the balcony as he was falling, which I'm sure most would agree that it wasn't to separate them), and if he wanted to he, could have, at any time, easily overpowered them similtaneously with the force, but he instead decided to continue to engage them in sabers, which suggests that he didn't find them a threat in a pure saber battle. On the otherhand, nothing suggests that Dooku could have easily overpowered both Anakin and Kenobi with the force at the same time the way Sidious can with the brothers, but he was capable of easily dismissing Kenobi with the force, and that's exactly what he kept doing, and the novel suggest that this was because Kenobi posed a threat to him while fighting alongside Anakin.