ROTS Mace Windu Vs AOTC/ROTS Count Dooku

Originally posted by Galan007
😂 After all this time you fellas [still] aren't comprehending a word I've typed *sighs*. As I've said multiple times now: cutting off more appendages equates to Kenobi fairing much better against Grievous than Fisto did.

The problem is that that wasn't all you said:

Galan007, pg.27
b.) Fisto most certainly did NOT 'outduel' Griveous-- chopping off an appendage=/=outdueling. Imo, they seemed relatively equal until some outside interference entered the fray... Kenobi, on the other hand, casually tooled Grievous in sabers. So based on their respective battles with Grievous, RotS Kenobi>Fisto. Not arguable.

Galan007, pg.27
Kenobi, on the other hand, casually tooled Grievous in sabers.

Galan007, pg.27
casually tooled

The question I posed to you is... how did he casually tool him? Ares834 answered on your behalf: by cutting off two limbs. Which is what I alluded to earlier: you're moving the goalpost in a direction that favors Obi-Wan.

Galan007
Again: he[Kenobi] was able to cause MORE damage, in LESS time, and with HALF the weaponry. This is an overtly simple concept to grasp. Why do you persist in making things more difficult then need be?

The context of this has been addressed. I accept the facts of the duel, but that includes its full context.

Ninja'd. Way to take much of the wind out of my sails, Galan. :/

And no, I do contest very strongly the idea that Obi-Wan did much better.

Lulz.

We make beautiful symmetry, you and I.

You swooped my bug. 🙁

prove it.

Idk, but I'm still a bit confused.

I don't understand how Galan007 claims that Kenobi did much better than Kit just because he chopped off an extra arm, when his original claim was that chopping off arms =/= outduelling (which seems to suggest that chopping of appendages isn't a big deal), and that Obi Wan did much better because he gained more ground against Grievous than Fisto did. But when the proof was in the putting, and he was shown that Kit actually gained more ground than Kenobi did, it seems as if he doesn't consider gaining ground as being an indication of one doing better.

Maybe it is my reading comprehension. 🙄

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Maybe it is my reading comprehension. 🙄

Once more: Kenobi did better than Fisto because he managed to cause MORE damage, in LESS time, and with HALF the weaponry. It's that simple. 🙂

But you originally claimed that Kenobi did better because he supposedly gained more ground than Fisto. You're now claiming Kenobi did better because he removed more appendages only after you were proven wrong about him gaining more ground than Fisto.

I wasn't referring to gaining ground in the most literal sense that you are referring to, friend. Frankly, I could care less who moves where during a battle-- as that is entirely dependent on the style of combat said character uses.

In this case my definition of "gaining more ground" = causing MORE damage, in LESS time, and with HALF the weaponry.

It's that simple. 🙂

Oh ok.

This thread...

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Meanwhile, Barris is the very definition of a no-name padawan.

IIRC she was Knighted in the CW Mini.

Originally posted by Galan007

Why are we making excuses for Kit in order to place him higher on the totem pole than his feats warrant? No other character is allowed such a privilege.

I'm guessing because it makes Sidious that much more impressive.

To be fair to Fisto, he's in a need of feats so there's no reason for taking away his best one, which is dealing with Grievous.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
IIRC she was Knighted in the CW Mini.

Pretty sure she's still a padawan under Luminara here.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm guessing because it makes Sidious that much more impressive.

That's terribly conspiratorial, don't you think?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He never shouted for their help! Watch the movie.. And they were hardly even a distraction to Obi-Wan.

If your talking about him shouting for the droids then no that's not canon as it's not in the movie. And we see/hear the whole fight.

If your claiming he made a hand gesture (which we don't see either) then that's possible. But what's your point? They were hardly even a distraction to Kenobi, and Dooku went on to almost defeat both Kenobi and Skywalker together.

Incorrect as there is no conflict. It's only labeled non canon if there is a direct conflict. No such conflict exists here. As you and Galan both agree.. the brought the droids to run interference. Thus when they do EXACTLY what he brought them for.. him shouting for them suddenly becomes non canon? That has got to be one of the most illogical things I've heard on this site in some time. A conflict would be NO droids in the movie... dooku saying he wasn't goign to use droids.. dooku saying droids would do no good. NONE of that happened. This is bordering on idiocy at this point... You both agree he wanted the droids to interfere... that means him calling for them.. is NO conflict what-so-ever.. in fact it falls directly in line with what we see in the movie.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I have most certainly not insulted you?

I am most certainly not grasping at straws?

I am most certainly being snide? But that owes more to the and?s and okay?s instead of either conceding that point or agreeing to disagree? You started it, my son? Unfortunately, in addition to being the best looking and best endowed, I'm also the snidest person here?

I would say simplistic? Kit started out with the same amount of weapons Obi-Wan did and did a better job at keeping him on the defensive? Grievous felt comfortable enough to take on Obi-Wan alone but clearly did not feel likewise about Kit? Obi-Wan used his Force push despite the fact that Grievous only had two lightsabers left, whereas Kit used his Force push as a taunt and allowed Grievous to return to his feet?

The only difference you've established is that Obi-Wan relieved Grievous of two blades instead of one? Which is fine... but that harkens back to your original point, which was that cutting off an appendage doesn't mean one is out-dueling one's opponent?

Originally posted by john allerdyce
Completely agree.

Because Tempest refuses to dislodge his anus from Kit's slimy, fish-flavored phallus?

Galan does he know you're happily married? I mean it's kinda scary how he litterally follows you across all the forums and agrees with you. What's even scarier is his vivid homo fantasy directed at somebody else, but we all know this was actually a freudian slip. Please tell him no homo in the future or this obsession will only continue.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Do you not think your arguments through before you post them, or are you just that desperate to win a debate.

Your original claim was that chopping off appendages =/= outduelling. Then when Temp asked how do you figure that Kenobi outdueled Grievous, if Fisto didn't? your answer was something like: because Kenobi gained more ground, whereas Fisto didn't. Tempest then proved you wrong by posting both fights, which showed that Fisto forced Grievous on the defensive far more than Kenobi did. Now suddenly you switch it up and say that Kenobi outdueled Grievous because he chopped off more appendages (something that you originally claimed didn't equal outduelling someone).

I guess it's down to opinion on who performed better against Grievous. Kit managed to disarm Grievous of one saber, and then proceeded to force him on the defensive the entire time. Kenobi, on the other hand, disarmed Grievous's of two sabers, but was forced on the defensive by the GG (unlike Kit). But for anyone to suggest that Kenobi performed much better than Fisto, especially when Fisto was seemingly toying with Grievous, needs either their eyes checked or head examined.

That said, nothing suggests that Kenobi is above Fisto in swordsmanship, and if he is, it's not by much based on their respective performances against Grievous. So my argument still stands: if Sidious can cut down an Obi Wan level swordmaster along with two other swordmasters without having to separate them from Windu, there is no reason to assume that he would separate Kenobi from Anakin when he is more than capable of cutting him down without having to separate him.

I strongly disagree with any notion that Fisto is on the level of Kenobi.... This goes against numerous canon material that says otherwise. Kenobi has the better feats and would absolutly not have been cut down like Fisto was against Sids. He might not have lasted long.. .but he would've certainly last longer.. and I reckon quite a bit longer.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I strongly disagree with any notion that Fisto is on the level of Kenobi.... This goes against numerous canon material that says otherwise. Kenobi has the better feats and would absolutly not have been cut down like Fisto was against Sids. He might not have lasted long.. .but he would've certainly last longer.. and I reckon quite a bit longer.

What canon material says otherwise? If anything, Kit was actually referred to as one of the orders greatest swordsman, whereas I have yet to see Obi Wan having such an accolade. No, I'm not suggesting Kit is better than Obi Wan based on that quote, but as far as canon material goes, Kit has the better accolades as far as I know, which undermines your notion that canon says otherwise. And what proof do you have that Obi Wan would not have been cut down just as easily? Kenobi has never fought someone on Sidious' level of speed who is out for the kill. Furthermore, Obi Wan has absolutely no feats that suggests he is better than Fisto. Their respective performances against Grievous actually suggest that they are on par with each other. Kenobi has consistently struggled against Grievous up until ROTS. And while he handily defeated Grievous in ROTS, it was not an easy win, as the novel makes it clear that Grievous speed was sufficient to overwhelm his defense, which is why Kenobi was forced on the defensive throughout most of the fight, whereas Fisto was actually the one who had Grievous on the defensive. The only thing Kenobi has on Fisto, is that he managed to cut off two arms, whereas Fisto only cut off one, and I really don't see how that makes such a huge difference, especially when Kit was seemingly toying with Grievous and could have ended the fight a lot sooner had he not been standing over Grievous, allowing him to get back on his feet after he had floored him with a force push.

Obi Wan has far more feats than Fisto, yes, but none of them suggests he is much better that Kit, otherwise his performance against Grievous should have been miles better than Kits performance, which it wasn't no matter how much someone wants to argue that it was.

If you want to say Obi Wan is better than Kit, go ahead, I really don't care. If you want to say Obi Wan may have lasted a bit longer against Sidious than Kit, go ahead, I really don't care. But the fact is, he is not miles ahead of Fisto, and he poses absolutely no threat to Sidious at all in pure blade work. Sidious can slaughter three "celebrated swordsmasters" in mere seconds, and there is no way in hell that Obi Wan is better than all three of them put together, when he is not even much better than Kit alone.

This same debate has been rehashed over and over again, and I really don't feel like arguing about it any further, TBH.

So... you agree Kenobi is better than Fisto

So.. you agree that Kenobi would have lasted longer than Fisto

Thus, there is nothing to debate then. I also believe in the above as I posted. If you don't wish to debate the matter that is fine, and since you agree with me, I don't think it's even needed. If you disagree with the above.. we can discuss it further. BTW.. what I mean by canon material isn't just quotes.. but FEATS and quotes, of which Kenobi has more of and more impressive ones at that.