ROTS Mace Windu Vs AOTC/ROTS Count Dooku

jawdrop

Here are the important levels of canon, in order from highest to lowest:

G-canon
T-canon
C-canon
N-canon

The movies is G-canon.
The novel is C-canon.

If not contradicted by a G-canon source (or a T-canon source), the C-canon source is indeed canon.

If it is contradicted by a G-canon source (or a T-canon source), the C-canon source is non-canon.

Same goes for other parts of the novels. Dooku throwing tables at Anakin is non-canon. Anakin watching Mace and Sidious fight is non-canon. The dialogue in most of the fights are non-canon.

In novel droids play important part. Dooku was able to kick Kenobi because of them:

Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi's chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs.

In film droids at best slow down Kenobi for couple of seconds, which doesn't really matter at all.

Good point. 👆

Originally posted by Galan007
No, that is an example of a contradiction. A conflict is merely when a part of the novel doesn't mesh properly with what we see on film-- in which case the film's depiction/portrayal supersedes the novel's.

That said, the novel states Dooku shouted to the droids: "Guards, open fire!" However, he didn't make that exclamation in the film, therefore it's non-canon. Simple.

Ummm no the examples I gave would not only CONFLICT with what the movie should but could also be called a contradiction. let's not act like they wouldn't be conflicts big G.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ummm no the examples I gave would not only CONFLICT with what the movie should but could also be called a contradiction. let's not act like they wouldn't be conflicts big G.

For GOD's Sake KT, Dooku NEVER shouts for the droids.

In fact as Arhael pointed out the whole scene involving the droids in the novel is completely different to the movie.

Why does it seem as if most everyone here is arguing just for the sake of it. KT isn't arguing that Dooku shouting for the guards is canon; he's saying that Dooku clearly wanted them to interfere, which most everyone seems to agree with. So I don't get what all the arguing is about?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
KT isn't arguing that Dooku shouting for the guards is canon;

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Whether you think he needed them or made that big of a difference is irrelevant to the issue at hand. The issue at hand is that it's canon that he called them. He wanted them to interfere and that is exactly what they did. I know you think very highly of dooku, and that's fine, but he felt he needed them/wanted them... so that counts for more than your opinion on whether he idd.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You guys understand what a conflict is right? I mean really this is getting close to beyond stilly at this point. A conflict is something going directly against the movie and how lucas wanted things. There is NOTHING like that. A conflict WOULD be... Dooku saying he's not going to use any guards.. dooku saying he doesn't need the guards... dooku saying he doesn't want them interfering ... THOSE are what would make it a conflict an non canon. Here... you guys ADMIT dooku WANTED TO GUARDS to intervene... That IS EXACTLY why he brought them there. So how the **** is him calling for them to do EXACTLY what you say he wanted non canon? Jesus H. Christ... You guys are better than this. There are LITERALLY countless things characters say in the novel that is never spoken in the movie. That doesn't make it non canon. The point of the novel is to expand on details not seen in the movies. NOT to write a whole bunch of useless stuff in it they know people will view as non canon but go **** it... even with lucas correcting we still know it's non canon and we'll put it in. NO.. Lucas and other SPECIALLY put stuff in there for a reason.. not just for the **** of it so KMC could have all this stuff to label non canon. There is no conflict AT ALL here. By your standards of throwing out stuff.. we'd literally throw out a hundred pages of material that is never uttered in the movie.

Admittedly, his writing is very hard to understand, and he doesn't even seem to try to make it understandable. But it seems to me that he is only suggesting that the guards were there to intervene, and that the novel does not exactly contradict the movie as far as that is concerned. The only contradiction is how it happened, not why it happened. Dooku was shown to call on the help from magnaguards with hand gestures in TCW, if I recall correctly, so I don't see why he couldn't have done the same with the droids. Droids do not have wills of their own, and they didn't intervene until after Dooku retreated up the stairs, after he had just separated Kenobi from the fight, and I doubt the droids took it upon themselves to stroll down the stairs and open fire on Kenobi, unless Dooku somehow commanded their assistance.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Why does it seem as if most everyone here is arguing just for the sake of it. KT isn't arguing that Dooku shouting for the guards is canon; he's saying that Dooku clearly wanted them to interfere, which most everyone seems to agree with. So I don't get what all the arguing is about?

And as Arhael pointed out: the droids interfering is what helped Dooku gain the advantage over Kenobi in the novel-- which is yet another 'novel fact' that hugely contradicts what was shown in the film.

Well, I agree that the droids didn't give Dooku any advantage in the movie. They didn't even seem to make a difference really.

But read my above post: there is no contradiction on why they interfered. That's all I'm saying, and what I thought KT was implying.

That is what I'm saying... How can there be a conflict when none exists? Dooku literally BROUGHT the droids there to intervene and help him out. Everybody agrees with this.. so why would him shouting for them be a conflict? That makes ZERO sense. They intervened just like he intended them to do, so how on God's green earth can there be a conflict there. They didn't just attack on their own.. if that was the case they would've just started attacking from the jump. Instead the waited JUST LIKE IN THE NOVEL... for the time DOOKU WANTED them to intervene and did just that. How the hell is that a conflict with the movie?

On a side ntoe... at no point did I say Dooku needed the droids or that they made a huge difference. But to act like dooku calling for them in a contradiction to the movie is just plain silly. They attacked exactly at the same point in the movie and novel. They did exactly what dooku brought them for. There is zero contradiction or conflict there.

You know, when I joined this Versus forums, I didn't expect to teach some guy about canon.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well, I agree that the droids didn't give Dooku any advantage in the movie. They didn't even seem to make a difference really.

But read my above post: there is no contradiction on why they interfered. That's all I'm saying, and what I thought KT was implying.

And yeah, in the film the droids did absolutely nothing in the way of helping Dooku own Kenobi. Tbh, that portion of the novel in particular is riddled with inconsistencies.

So they were there to because Dooku wanted them to intervene... you even admit now he probably signaled them to intervene in some way... So then.. why is him calling for them a conflict. you just admitted he probably signaled for them in some way. This is getting beyond absurd now.

Because he didn't call for them. He didn't shout anything.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So they were there to because Dooku wanted them to intervene... you even admit now he probably signaled them to intervene in some way...

They did not intervene due to a verbal order shouted to them by Dooku, however.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So then.. why is him calling for them a conflict. you just admitted he probably signaled for them in some way. This is getting beyond absurd now.

The droids attacking isn't the conflict. The reason in which they began their attack is the conflict-- the novel's reason doesn't mesh with what happened in the film, thus it is non-canon by default.

Good lord, KT... This shouldn't be so hard for you to grasp.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Because he didn't call for them. He didn't shout anything.

Why did they attack Kenobi at that instance then? At the same instance the book references where dooku "would've" shouted that. Are you claiming they attacked on their own?

KT, Dooku isn't heard issuing orders to the droids. Galan, Dooku was losing and needed all the help he could get even if the droids didn't amount to more than a momentary distraction. DP, Dooku wasn't stomping shit.

I have spoken.

The script says he and Obi-Wan are both tired as the fight progresses and that Anakin is driving the attack on the Count. To say nothing of the fact that, in recent canon, Dooku has been shown struggling like hell against Anakin alone. The fact that he had a brief advantage in no way means he was stomping them... unless I can argue Sidious totally stomped Yoda because he knocked Yoda out. Or that Opress stomped Dooku and Ventress in "Witches of the Mist"... or Anakin and Obi-Wan.

There's no point in desperately seeking a favorable interpretation for Dooku. He was losing. 😬

That is what they are trying to do Tempest.. for some reason they believe him shouting for the droids paints him in a negative light so they are disputing its canonicity. Which IMO makes ZERO sense. They admit he brought them there to help him and wanted them to intervene when he saw fight... they admit he gave SOME kind of signal for them to intervene... yet go him yelling for them in non canon. That is utterly ridiculous. Why would you fight the canonicity of something you admit dooku wanted and called for.. but was just not seen sayin it in the movie. Why would you argue canonicity about something you admit he brought them there for and attacked when he wanted.