Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It's NOT A REAL SABER... Thus it's NOT the SAME THING. What is so hard to understand about this. A life and death battle with REAL sabers looks A LOT different and feels different. Not sure what isn't computing here. Stop trying to say Dooku is superior to Windu based on sparring matched before Mace was in his prime like in ROTS.
Prove that they weren't using real ligthsabers.
They aren't Padawans, I have no reason to believe they wouldn't use the same thing.
Originally posted by Galan007
Palpatine has been aware of Vaapad since Shatterpoint, at the very least:
"Vaapad?" Palpatine repeated, eventually. Perhaps he'd grown tired of waiting for someone to explain. "Isn't that some kind of animal?""A predator of Sarapin," Yoda supplied gravely. "Also the nickname it is, given by students, for the seventh form of lightsaber combat."
"Hmp. I've always heard there are only six."
"Six there were, for generations of Jedi. The seventh... is not well known. A powerful form it is. Deadliest of all... But dangerous it is-to its master, as well as its opponent. Few have studied. One student alone to mastery has risen."
"But if she's the only master-and this style is so deadly-what makes you think-"
"She's not the only master, sir." Mace lifted his head to meet Palpatine's frown. "She is my only student to become a master."
"Your only student..." Palpatine echoed.
"I didn't study Vaapad." Mace let his hands fall to his sides. "I created it."
Palpatine's brows drew together thoughtfully. "Yes, I seem to recall now: a reference in your report on the treason of Master Sora Bulq. Didn't you train him as well? Didn't he also claim to be a master of this Vaapad of yours?"
"Sora Bulq was not my student." "And he did not master Vaapad," Mace said grimly. "Vaapad mastered him."
"Ah-ah, I see..."
---
So not only did Palpatine know of Vaapad, but he knew that Mace both created, and was the master of, said form.
Vaapad doesn't channel 'force powers', it channels an opponents inner darkness/the dark side-- and Dooku has that en gros. Yoda's comment during AotC was certainly indicative of such: "Powerful you have become my old Padawan... The dark side I sense in you."
I can also post some quotes from DR if need be. /shrug
Knowing of it isn't the same thing as seeing it applied first hand in battle.
Also inner darkness or not. Palpatine has WAY more of it than Dooku does. That's my point, Palpatine is the embodiment of the Dark Side, he has been called the Dark Side itself considering his death alone could tip the force back into balance. Him and Plagueis tipped the Dark Side into galactic dominance. With Plagueis dead he became it's sole embodiment.
So of course the amp Mace got from that will be far greater than the one he gets from Dooku. However Dooku is a swordsman almost as proficient as the Dark Lord.
The idea that if Mace gets the same boost he gets from Sidious he'll win is correct, but there's no way in hell he'll get that same boost.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Prove that they weren't using real ligthsabers.They aren't Padawans, I have no reason to believe they wouldn't use the same thing.
PROVE THEY DO.. THIS IS YOUR ARGUMENT TO PROVE NOT MINE. Conventional logic would dictate they don't use real lightsabers in sparring. That is common sense. However, even if they WERE real.. It's NOT a LIFE AND DEATH FIGHT with both giving their all. That alone discounts it as being anything other than a little cookie for Dooku in his prime against Mace before his prime. Plus, as stated above.. it wasn't Mace's prime... You admit Mace grew in power... So it's irrelevant to current mace. So as you can see regardlesss of whether it was a real saber or not,, it's still discounted. Now PROVE it was a REAL SABER.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Knowing of it isn't the same thing as seeing it applied first hand in battle.Also inner darkness or not. Palpatine has WAY more of it than Dooku does. That's my point, Palpatine is the embodiment of the Dark Side, he has been called the Dark Side itself considering his death alone could tip the force back into balance. Him and Plagueis tipped the Dark Side into galactic dominance. With Plagueis dead he became it's sole embodiment.
So of course the amp Mace got from that will be far greater than the one he gets from Dooku. However Dooku is a swordsman almost as proficient as the Dark Lord.
The idea that if Mace gets the same boost he gets from Sidious he'll win is correct, but there's no way in hell he'll get that same boost.
Why do you think it will matter if it's the same boost.. that is't the point he was making and we have been making. Vaapad will allow him to match and or exceed Dooku just like it did with Sids. So once vaapad allow Mace to match (which he already was) or exceed that is all that is required plus a hint of shatterpoint and Dooku dies. What isn't computing here?
Okay so let's say Dooku = Windu.. I don't have much of an issue with that.. NEVER have. I think they are very close in pure sabers combat. My problem is people use sparring matches to make it like Dooku is Mace's superior. That is totally wrong and not close to accurate. Plus, Mace back then wasn't in his prime.. he grew in power.. while Dooku WAS in his prime.. which further invalidates the sparring matches. Anyways, let's say they are equal.. cool.. then the difference will be vaapad and shatterpoint.. What is tough about this?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
PROVE THEY DO.. THIS IS YOUR ARGUMENT TO PROVE NOT MINE. Conventional logic would dictate they don't use real lightsabers in sparring. That is common sense. However, even if they WERE real.. It's NOT a LIFE AND DEATH FIGHT with both giving their all. That alone discounts it as being anything other than a little cookie for Dooku in his prime against Mace past his prime. Plus, as stated above.. it wasn't Mace's prime... You admit Mace grew in power... So it's irrelevant to current mace. So as you can see regardlesss of whether it was a real saber or not,, it's still discounted. Now PROVE it was a REAL SABER.
No that's pretty much bullshit you made up.
Even as far back in canon as KOTOR I Juhani thought she killed her master because they were sparring WITH REAL SABERS. Every canon source has stated training sabers were only utilized by Padawans and Initiates. So no the burden of proof falls on you as to why two Jedi Masters would use training sabers. The lightsaber and the being are one, making Jedi Masters use a training saber would detract from the performance. So unless you mean to tell me that all Jedi have two sabers, one training and one real, then you are full of it.
Once again, both Mace and Dooku grew in power since Dooku left the order. Let me say that again. Mace Windu grew in power because of an increased mastery of Vaapad, Dooku gained master of the Dark Side...wait...actually does anyone have a source for Mace growing in power aside from nominally over the course of the war?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Okay so let's say Dooku = Windu.. I don't have much of an issue with that.. NEVER have. I think they are very close in pure sabers combat. My problem is people use sparring matches to make it like Dooku is Mace's superior. That is totally wrong and not close to accurate. Plus, Mace back then wasn't in his prime.. he grew in power.. while Dooku WAS in his prime.. which further invalidates the sparring matches. Anyways, let's say they are equal.. cool.. then the difference will be vaapad and shatterpoint.. What is tough about this?
The point is that Dooku was never once defeated by Mace...Mace was. Also source for Mace growing in power pl0x. Because I've scanned the ROTS novel and found nothing suggesting it. I may have missed something though.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Okay so let's say Dooku = Windu.. I don't have much of an issue with that.. NEVER have. I think they are very close in pure sabers combat. My problem is people use sparring matches to make it like Dooku is Mace's superior. That is totally wrong and not close to accurate. Plus, Mace back then wasn't in his prime.. he grew in power.. while Dooku WAS in his prime.. which further invalidates the sparring matches. Anyways, let's say they are equal.. cool.. then the difference will be vaapad and shatterpoint.. What is tough about this?
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No that's pretty much bullshit you made up.
Even as far back in canon as KOTOR I Juhani thought she killed her master because they were sparring WITH REAL SABERS. Every canon source has stated training sabers were only utilized by Padawans and Initiates. So no the burden of proof falls on you as to why two Jedi Masters would use training sabers. The lightsaber and the being are one, making Jedi Masters use a training saber would detract from the performance. So unless you mean to tell me that all Jedi have two sabers, one training and one real, then you are full of it.Once again, both Mace and Dooku grew in power since Dooku left the order. Let me say that again. Mace Windu grew in power because of an increased mastery of Vaapad, Dooku gained master of the Dark Side...wait...actually does anyone have a source for Mace growing in power aside from nominally over the course of the war?
WRong again.. it's YOU that has to prove they were fighting with real sabers NOT ME. it's not my argument to prove. Further it doesn't matter if it was a real one or not...
1. You admit dooku was older than Mace correct? Thus Dooku would be more experienced and thus more powerful correct? Thus the sparring is invalid to current Mace.
2. Sparring isn't a LIFE OR DEATH SITUATION. WTF is so hard to understand about this? Have you ever played a sport in your entire life? I mean honestly have you? If you did, you would understand the different between Practice and sparring. They are WORLD's appart.
3. not only are they worlds apart in how one might try or fight.. and not only is practice not a real life fight.. but the distance further grows between sparring and a fight.. when it's a life or death fight. That makes people fight a tad bit better and try that much harder. Are you really this dense that you can't comprehend that one might try harder in a fight for their life then they would sparring with a friend?
4. There is ZERO evidence that Mace had mastered Vaapad and Shatterpoint to the levels he had by ROTS.. If you have proof POST THE PROOF HE HAD. Further, he couldn't even use vaapad to its fullest potentional because he wouldn't be feeding on anybody DS inside of him or his opponents. More invalidating of a sparring match.
Lastly, please give me the time period in which they sparred.. I want a date.. Because from what I'm gathering this took place before the PM... Which would mean Mace would've grew in power by the time of ROTS.. Not only grown in power but mastered Vaapad and shatterpoint that much better.
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
That every time they fought they were equal. And obviously Mace used Shatterpoint/Vaapad in those fights.
really.. you have proof he mastered Vaapad and S.P. to the levels he had by ROTS.. I ask Yoda the same thing.. POST THIS PROOF. Further, he wouldn't be able to use vaapad the same way he would in a fight against a DS Dooku (you know the one in this fight) So no, not only is there no proof he had mastered them as well at that point, they also wouldn't be utilized as well. Try again.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The point is that Dooku was never once defeated by Mace...Mace was. Also source for Mace growing in power pl0x. Because I've scanned the ROTS novel and found nothing suggesting it. I may have missed something though.
In his fight with Palpatine it talks about how he once feared the dark but he got over that after the events of shatterpoint. It implies he's a more competent combatant now.
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Mace had mastered Vaapad/Shatterpoint as of ''Shatterpoint'' (the novel) Every encounter between Mace/Dooku (which have them equal) are after ''Shatterpoint.''
Really? You don't say? Please list the dates of these sparring matches please then... Which again, it doesn't matter since it was sparring and you can't use vaapad the same in sparring as you would in a real fight.. but none the less.. I want the dates please.