Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes it does.
No, it doesn't?
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No source implies the gap between MagnaGuards is to the degree that 3 could defeat one swordbeing and yet dozens cannot defeat another.
Except the one I provided you that declares three of them were beyond Obi-Wan's ability to handle alone.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Shaak Ti's feat wasn't exaggerated.
It was depicted in the same microseries that portrays Mace as capable of manhandling countless droids... whereas Dooku can't take 30 pirates in the new series. STFU and quit moving the goalpost to satisfy your Dooku wankery.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Aside from your one quoted do you have proof that there is such a gap?
Nope. Thank God I don't need one.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I've never seen evidence aside from that single quote that 3 MagnaGuards could defeat Kenobi.
Me either.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Elite or no, Kenobi fended off Savage and Maul, to suggest he'd have trouble with any 3 droids is absurd.
Yeah, so is thinking that he'd have trouble with Grievous alone, but lo and behold, he was running from Grievous later on in season 5.
Of course, maybe it's fending off Maul and Savage that's the absurd, inconsistent feat... maybe. mmm
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Dooku is well aware of Mace's caliber. The point is that he had the chance to gore Mace the moment the MagnaGuards detained him. He elected to flee in the interest of time not the interest of he might die if he continued.
Yeah, because there's no chance Dooku would die taking on Mace Windu in a fight. 😂
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I'm implying jack shit.
Cool story, bro.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
From the start I've stated Mace and Dooku are equals, but if one has the SLIGHT advantage it's the Count. Reading comprehension ftw.
Then you should probably have just ended it there.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It does matter because Mace NEVER was able to best Dooku in sparring, where as Dooku was able to best him
I challenge you to find me a single source that says Mace never bested Dooku in sparring.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
If you got Mace Windu's erect BAMF engraved penis out of your mouth for five seconds you'd realize this.
Given that Dooku's liverspotted dick has all but dissolved betwixt your lips, you probably shouldn't be giving anyone advice in this regard.
LOL THEYRE EQUALS BUT DOOKU RUNNIN FROM MACE DONT MEAN SHIT DOOKU BEAT MACE AT SOME POINT OR ANOTHER IN THE PAST AND THERES NO WAI MACE HAS IMPROVED SINCE THEN BECAUSE ONLY GRIEVOUS AND OBI-WAN CAN IMPROVE BECAUSE IT SUITS MY ARGUMENTS MAGNAGUARDS ARE PUSSIES UNTIL THEY HOLD MACE THEN THEYRE AWESOME DOOKU WOULD CURBSTOMP HIM LOLOLOLOL
^ Your argument in a nutshell.
The single logical interpretation is that the Count and Mace are without question peers in combat. There would be no comfortable victory, no curbstomp, no decisive advantage on either side. Mace is presented in less source material, but when he does, he displays prowess on par with Dooku (even in the Force). At [at least] one point in their past, Dooku defeated Mace in combat, which isn't surprising given a ~30 year age disparity between them. We know Dooku is at least proficient in multiple forms as the Temple's battlemaster and his claims in Labyrinth of Evil; we know, per Fight Saber, Mace is a master of multiple forms in order to wield Juyo/Vaapad. Mace appears to have an advantage in raw physicality, but this may very well not be the case as Dooku is shown to be quite the bruiser and unarmed combatant ("Dooku Captured"😉. Dooku has a clear advantage in combat experience and refinement, if not broad technical technique. And though he's likely to tire before Mace, he's more than capable of replenishing himself at the drop of a dime.
It's pretty clear each has his advantage/s. In terms of natural ability, I would probably give Dooku the nod in an exceptionally grueling battle. But once Vaapad enters the equation? The balance shifts to Mace.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No you have to prove they fought with training sabers which are designated for Padawans.What sort of bullshit red herring is this? What does my participation in sports have to do with lightsaber battles with individuals with ftl precog, hypersonic speed and reactions. Sparring for Jedi IS NOT the same as sparring between athletes.
Doesn't say sparring, it says
I don't have to. He invented Vaapad decades prior. Why would his mastery suddenly jump on his 60th birthday?
Post a quote that says Mace's mastery increased in between AOTC and ROTS.
It used to be hypothesized he invented Vaapad in between TPM and AOTC and mastered it during the Clone Wars.This has been knocked down given that PADAWAN Kenobi wanted to study Vaapad. So Vaapad was already a know and well recognized form well by the time of TPM. Giving Mace over 10 year to master it...
It's YOUR claim that they sparred with real sabers.. PROVE IT. I don't need to prove a negative i.e. that they didn't. Further, you're claiming they weren't sparring but "battling" So you're trying to increase the credibility of the fight and make it something MORE than sparring. Even the quote you use... about Yoda nad Dooku being the only ones able to overcome him in battle proves very little. No you expect me to believe Yoda and Mace fought a fight with REAL SABERS and went ALL OUT to beat one another. That is the most idiotic thing I've heard of. IF they went all out it would be WITHOUT lightsabers. Thatis just plain common sense. Do you know the accident that could happen IF they were going all out and using sabers.. People could lose limbs. Stop being stupid and trying to pawn these sparring matches off as real life fight.. THEY AREN'T.
Furthermore, even the quote you posted doesn't mean Mace hasn't beaten Dooku MORE than he was beaten. It simple sayis they overcame him... Nothing about HE NEVER BEAT THEM. I could say Matt Hughes was one of the very few to beat GSP (fact) yet that don't tell the whole story of GSP beating hughes twice after that. Get it? Even the quote you used isn't very convincing at all.
It's clear you have never participated in any sport at a high level if you can't distinguish a sparring match between friends testing ones abilities and a life and death fight between enemies. Just the fact, that you see you difference between the two tells me you haven't.
Because mastery jumps like this ALL the time. Jedi and Sith continue to grow more powerful as they are peaking... then, like all other athletes start to go down. For example, Kenobi was using Ataru all the way up to Clone wars.. He beat Maul using Ataru and lost to Dooku using it. By the time of ROTS.. he had mastered Soresu... Yes things can jump quite a bit ina short time period. This has been shown over and over again. Decades or even a year or two would and have made big differences.
Somebody knowing about a form doesn't mean said from was totally mastered by its inventor. They are not mutually inclusive. Vappad could've been known about as a form and being work on by Mace to continue to master it and tweak it. There is NO mention about him being a master of it.
NOW POST THE PROOF that Mace had mastered Vaapad and Shatterpoint by the time of the duels. Post proof that Mace never beat Dooku? Post the dates of the sparring matches between Yoda, Dooku and Mace. I also want proof they were fighting all out and going all out with sabers? Now get to it or concede.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiNOW POST THE PROOF that Mace had mastered Vaapad and Shatterpoint by the time of the duels.
He had Shatterpoint as a child. So that would definitely be there to a high degree in the contests in question.
And is there any reason to believe Mace hadn't mastered Vapaad at the time? It's not like he was a Padawan, he was a Senior Council Member/Head of the whole frigging Council.
And if Obi-Wan was seeking permission to be trained in it chances are it was already well developed.
Heck the fact that the quote states that ONLY Dooku and Yoda had ever defeated him shows it's clearly talking about a well established Mace.
Well established and mastered at the level he had by ROTS AREN'T MUTUALLY INCLUSIVE buddy. They can be world's apart. As I mention.. Just look at Kenobi.. He got pwned by Dooku in AOTC using Ataru.. BY ROTS he was THE master of Soresu. A few years can and have made all the difference in the world.
Further, as I pointed out.. that quote NEVER says Mace never beat Dooku... Just as in the example I posted... I'll give another... It could be said that the Raging Bull was one of only a few fighters to EVER beat Sugar Ray in his prime. While true, that doesn't talk about the 5 losses Jake got at the hands of Sugar.. See how that works. That quote doesn't nor is there ANY quote that says Mace never beat Dooku.
Plus, regardless it's SPARRING... not applicable to life and death. Mace more certainly grew in power from the sparring matches to ROTS... and Dooku was much older and more experienced than Mace at the time of said sparring. That is all that is needed to put that quote in it's proper perspective.... i.e. it was a simple quote used to build up Dooku and make him badass. This is done all the time. Dooku is badass, but let's nol make more out of this quote than need be.
Agreed. It only adds to the numerous sources explaining/showing that there is at least parity between the 2.
Where are all the sources/proofs of Mace being superior?
It all seems to come down to Vapaad being seen as a guaranteed win against Dark Siders.
As for sparring meaning nothing. Well it clearly does give an indication of combat prowess since it was ONLY Dooku and Yoda who were capable of beating Mace.
As for Mace substantially improving over the years. Well the evidence suggests it was actually Dooku who grew more powerful as a Sith.
DP do you think sparring is the same as a life and death fight? Simple question.. Answer it bud
Furthermore, did you see my boxing analogy.. Jake Lamotta could say he was only one of few to overcome Sugar Ray in his prime.. While true.. does that sentence mention the 5 losses get got from Sugar? That line means next to nothing. Not only was it sparring it was a prime dooku with more experience and knowledge fighting a green Mace compared to ROTS. How on earth people view that line as anything substantial is beyond me.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Agreed. It only adds to the numerous sources explaining/showing that there is at least parity between the 2.Where are all the sources/proofs of Mace being superior?
It all seems to come down to Vapaad being seen as a guaranteed win against Dark Siders.
To me, it was a case of he was winning against Palpatine (not won, but was doing more of the pressing forward), while Yoda had Dooku on the defense.
The so-called "ABC" syllogism doesn't always work with respect to fights because battles can end very differently depending on circumstance, environment, motivation, etc.
Simply put, Mace dropping Sidious doesn't necessarily mean he'd do it to Dooku nor does it mean he'd be able to do it to Sidious again. Ironically, the same paradigm applies to Dooku beating Mace in the past. Just because he's done it at least once doesn't mean he'd do it consistently.
Unfortunately for the Count, Vaapad is an equalizer here and it will be present for Mace to use against him. And while it alone wasn't enough to allow Mace to beat Sidious, Dooku is no Sidious. 😬
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The so-called "ABC" syllogism doesn't always work with respect to fights because battles can end very differently depending on circumstance, environment, motivation, etc.
Yea, it doesn't... but do we have anything else to indicate otherwise?
There are cases where someone performs better against some types of foes but worse against others (Fisto vs Grievous going much better for Kit than Fisto vs Ventress. Or Kenobi, Anakin, and Dooku), but we don't have enough indication to see if that's the case here.
Those two fights made Mace look the more impressive.
Well, that and the matter that Dooku lost to Anakin's power, and Mace is also a very physically powerful duelist.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
DP do you think sparring is the same as a life and death fight? Simple question.. Answer it bud
No. But combat prowess is obviously used in sparring, so it does give us an indication.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Furthermore, did you see my boxing analogy.. Jake Lamotta could say he was only one of few to overcome Sugar Ray in his prime.. While true.. does that sentence mention the 5 losses get got from Sugar?
I never said Mace never beat Dooku. It'd be a reasonable assumption that he did even though there's no evidence of that.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That line means next to nothing. Not only was it sparring it was a prime dooku with more experience and knowledge fighting a green Mace compared to ROTS. How on earth people view that line as anything substantial is beyond me.
It wasn't prime Dooku. Sith Dooku was Prime Dooku. And where's your proof that Mace was so much worse then than he was in ROTS?
Fact is they've fought twice during the Clone Wars period. And Mace did not show superiority either time.
They're seem to be on par. But I'd personally give Mace the edge in Sabers and Dooku the edge in the Force.
Originally posted by The_TempestLike you said: Vaapad alone didn't give Mace an edge against Palpatine-- it merely equalized their respective powers. Mace being able to sense shatterpoints is what ultimately allowed him to press advantage and "overpower" Palps. Put them on a ground-level wide open street without any of those same situational/locational shatterpoints available for Mace to readily exploit, and the battle could well end differently. Although there is no real proof to support this opinion, it is certainly a logical one.
The so-called "ABC" syllogism doesn't always work with respect to fights because battles can end very differently depending on circumstance, environment, motivation, etc.Simply put, Mace dropping Sidious doesn't necessarily mean he'd do it to Dooku nor does it mean he'd be able to do it to Sidious again. Ironically, the same paradigm applies to Dooku beating Mace in the past. Just because he's done it at least once doesn't mean he'd do it consistently.
Unfortunately for the Count, Vaapad is an equalizer here and it will be present for Mace to use against him. And while it alone wasn't enough to allow Mace to beat Sidious, Dooku is no Sidious. 😬
At any rate, I don't see why people are still talking about Dooku out-sparring Mace back when he was a Jedi, and the full effects of Vaapad were not applicable..? That 'evidence' is utterly inconsequential to the fight at hand. Here, Mace will be facing Dooku as a Sith lord, and Vaapad's superconducting loop will be in full effect.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No. But combat prowess is obviously used in sparring, so it does give us an indication.I never said Mace never beat Dooku. It'd be a reasonable assumption that he did even though there's no evidence of that.
It wasn't prime Dooku. Sith Dooku was Prime Dooku. And where's your proof that Mace was so much worse then than he was in ROTS?
Fact is they've fought twice during the Clone Wars period. And Mace did not show superiority either time.
They're seem to be on par. But I'd personally give Mace the edge in Sabers and Dooku the edge in the Force.
1. I agree we're on the same page.
2. I agree we're on the same page
3. We disagree and agree here. Firstly, you stated earlier you believe Mace grew in power and mastery by the time of ROTS. A logical deduction since we see evidence for this with countless people growing in power in a shorter period of time. Are you now stating you don't believe he grew in power or mastery?
Next, I disagree that Sith Dooku was Prime just beause he was a sith. I do agree he grew in power in SOME areas.. but as we know... going to the DS also makes one weaker in other areas. Yoda casually dealing with Dooku lighting proves that any advantages a DS gains in power.. a jedi can have an answer to that as well as not having their mind clouded by anger.. fear...lust for power etc etc. Mentality is just a big a weapon as a saber. Anyways, not only that.. but you must rember Dooku was OLDER than Kenobi was during ANH. That Kenobi on panel is stated to be weaker and his appearance backed up said claim. So, while dooku gained power in some areas... he physical body was no longer prime. That much should be obvious.
4. I agree Mace has an edge in Sabers and I believe they are equal in the force. Maybe.. just maybe a slight edge to Dooku in the force.. but not nearly enough to give him the victory.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
4. I agree Mace has an edge in Sabers and I believe they are equal in the force. Maybe.. just maybe a slight edge to Dooku in the force.. but not nearly enough to give him the victory.
I agree the all-out fight is more likely to be decided in a Saber contest than a Force contest.
And Mace probably has the edge there in pure Sabers.
But then Dooku tends to do well in All-Out's as he's very good at combining the 2 - Saber Prowess with simultaneous Force attacks.
So it's too close to call Imo.