ROTS Obi Wan Kenobi Vs Mace Windu

Started by Galan0076 pages
Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by axel_jovan
This.

Also "option a" makes some sense. After all Anakin turned into a psycho wanting to murder his beloved wife, hardly the best mental state for him to take advantage of his prodigious dueling skills.

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Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I pretty much agree with those being the logical conclusions and I would a D) Kenobi knew Anakin that well and exploited his mentality and being one of, if not the most cunning masters made up any marginal gap in skill. I personally believe Kenobi did increase his skill and kinda think a little of each could be true of your conclusion.. Who knows I guess.
Tbh, I think Gillard simply jumped the gun when he ranked Anakin and Kenobi. Had he given it some thought, he surely would have realized that, given their battle on Mustafar, Anakin/Vader was not an "enormously" better duelist than Kenobi, and would have re-ranked them accordingly.

My opinion: At the beginning of the film, Anakin was easily a level 9 swordsman on par with Yoda and Palpatine(quite possibly superior to either of them, given how effortlessly he slew Dooku.) By the end of the film, however, the extreme/nigh-debilitating emotions he was experiencing from all the evil things he'd done caught up with him, and hindered his skills as a whole.

KuRuPT Thanosi Senior Member

Originally posted by Galan007
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Tbh, I think Gillard simply jumped the gun when he ranked Anakin and Kenobi. Had he given it some thought, he surely would have realized that, given their battle on Mustafar, Anakin/Vader was not an "enormously" better duelist than Kenobi, and would have re-ranked them accordingly.

My opinion: At the beginning of the film, Anakin was easily a level 9 swordsman on par with Yoda and Palpatine(quite possibly superior to either of them, given how effortlessly he slew Dooku.) By the end of the film, however, the extreme/nigh-debilitating emotions he was experiencing from all the evil things he'd done caught up with him, and hindered his skills as a whole.

I agree with your first sentence but would only add that no matter how you view his rankings the difference between a 8 and 9 can NEVER be enormous unless you're using some ass backwards rating system. Inheriently 8 and 9 aren't far apart.

We've gone over this part before and I would just add that Dooku was no longer in his prime by this point. He had expended vital energy via narration fighting both Kenobi and Anakin. Thus he didn't have much reserves by this point. Anakin style is tailor-made to overwhelm Dooku's. Lastly, I believe the novel or I've seen someplace it mentioned that Dooku underestimated Anakin. I think those are also factors on why he was able to win and win easy. Just my thoughts though.

DARTH POWER Senior Member

Originally posted by Galan007
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Tbh, I think Gillard simply jumped the gun when he ranked Anakin and Kenobi. Had he given it some thought, he surely would have realized that, given their battle on Mustafar, Anakin/Vader was not an "enormously" better duelist than Kenobi, and would have re-ranked them accordingly.

Or he was just exaggerating when he said "enormous." But you can't say he didn't give the fight much thought. He choreographed the whole thing.

Also Gillard says in the Making of ROTS that he calls the Anakin vs Obi-Wan fight "toe to toe," because "they can't get past each other's defenses."

So even though he says Skywalker is the more powerful swordsman, he does recognize there's still a level of parity when Skywalker and Kenobi face each other.

DARTH POWER Senior Member
Originally posted by Galan007

Know what's funny about that? Anakin and Kenobi's force powers were identical on Mustafar:

They staelmated a force push. I don't know if that alone means their force powers are identical.

Skywalker's always shown greater power int he force. From tanking Count Dooku's force attacks in TCW whilst Kenobi gets embarrasingly owned by Dooku's force attack in ROTS.

Then there's Force Choking Ventress in "The Wrong Jedi", just plain out Force owning her in the comic book "Clone Wars Volume 6 Dreadnaughts of Rendilli ". And finally levitating that huge Temple statue (after he turned to the Dark Side). Kenobi's never shown that kind of Force TK power.

So I'm not going to ignore all that, and assume their force powers to be equal because they force repulsed each other once.

Arhael Devoid of reality

Know what's funny about that? Anakin and Kenobi's force powers were identical on Mustafar:

That doesn't make their Force powers identical. If not Force explosion, Anakin would overpower him.

DARTH POWER Senior Member

^ I agree. Same thing happened to Luminara and Ventress when they force pushed each other but I doubt their Force Powers are also exactly the same.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I agree with your first sentence but would only add that no matter how you view his rankings the difference between a 8 and 9 can NEVER be enormous unless you're using some ass backwards rating system. Inheriently 8 and 9 aren't far apart.
I'm just telling you what Gillard said. Per him, the difference between a level 8 and 9 is "enormous."

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
We've gone over this part before and I would just add that Dooku was no longer in his prime by this point. He had expended vital energy via narration fighting both Kenobi and Anakin. Thus he didn't have much reserves by this point. Anakin style is tailor-made to overwhelm Dooku's. Lastly, I believe the novel or I've seen someplace it mentioned that Dooku underestimated Anakin. I think those are also factors on why he was able to win and win easy. Just my thoughts though.
I've debunked this myth a few times. Dooku didn't start to weaken until Anakin tapped his Christ power and began attacking him with "the unstoppable power of a meteor strike." Each time Kenobi entered the fray, he was handled by Dooku effortlessly--- ie. he didn't help Anakin defeat Dooku whatsoever.

I can post the entire battle, if need be. 🙂

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Or he was just exaggerating when he said "enormous." But you can't say he didn't give the fight much thought. He choreographed the whole thing.
I never said Gillard didn't give the fight much thought. I said he didn't give the levels concept much thought. Again: he placed Vader as a level 9 and Kenobi as a level 8, and then went on to say there is an "enormous" difference between a level 8 and 9. Clearly there was not an "enormous" difference between Vader and Kenobi. That's all I'm saying.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
They staelmated a force push. I don't know if that alone means their force powers are identical.
It means their raw TK was relatively equal. If Vader's TK would have been that much greater, Kenobi would have been flung across the room with little effort-- but that wasn't the case at all.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Skywalker's always shown greater power int he force.
Anakin has shown greater force power. Vader has not.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
From tanking Count Dooku's force attacks in TCW whilst Kenobi gets embarrasingly owned by Dooku's force attack in ROTS.
That was Anakin, not Vader.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And finally levitating that huge Temple statue (after he turned to the Dark Side). Kenobi's never shown that kind of Force TK power.
Anakin could also use force lightning in the game, iirc. Maybe that isn't the most accurate source to go by. 🙂

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So I'm not going to ignore all that, and assume their force powers to be equal because they force repulsed each other once.
You don't need to ignore anything. You need to realize that Anakin and Vader are, essentially, two different characters. One was a calm/cool/collected force-god. The other was a mindphucked trainwreck, riddled with doubt/conflict/remorse/guilt.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by Arhael
That doesn't make their Force powers identical. If not Force explosion, Anakin would overpower him.
Based on what, exactly, could Vader have overpowered Kenobi with his alleged superior TK..?

Arhael Devoid of reality

Originally posted by Galan007
Based on what, exactly, could Vader have overpowered Kenobi with his alleged superior TK..?

Based on being far more powerful.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

As Anakin, sure. As Vader, no way in hell. It's clear his emotions hindered him greatly on Mustafar--- hence the one TK attack he used being equal to Kenobi's.

Arhael Devoid of reality

Originally posted by Galan007
As Anakin, sure. As Vader, no way in hell. It's clear his emotions hindered him greatly on Mustafar.

No, his emotions empowered him greatly. Level 9 combat prowess and intensive training by actors to be able to demonstrate such performance, remember?

Being more powerful doesn't mean that character can simply overpower others. Skill is much more important factor. Dooku had skill to stomp Kenobi, Anakin didn't, simple as that.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by Arhael
No, his emotions empowered him greatly. Level 9 combat prowess and intensive training by actors to be able to demonstrate such performance, remember?
You and I have already gone rounds over the levels nonsense. Still not buying the notion that Anakin was an "enormously" better duelist--- nor will I buy-off on your opinion that Anakin wasn't being hindered by the guilt, remorse, doubt, and conflict that Lucas explicitly stated he was feeling. Never will.

...But that's neither here nor there.

Originally posted by Arhael
Being more powerful doesn't mean that character can simply overpower others. Skill is much more important factor. Dooku had skill to stomp Kenobi, Anakin didn't, simple as that.
So Anakin was potentially more powerful with the force, but never reached that potential by the time of their duel on Mustafar--- hence his TK attack being equal to Kenobi's...?

Sure, I can buy that. All I'm saying is that his force power certainly didn't come off as more powerful then.

Arhael Devoid of reality

Originally posted by Galan007
You and I have already gone rounds over the levels nonsense. Still not buying the notion that Anakin was an "enormously" better duelist--- nor will I buy-off on your opinion that Anakin wasn't being hindered by the guilt, remorse, doubt, and conflict that Lucas explicitly stated he was feeling. Never will.

...But that's neither here nor there.


Levels is not nonsense, it is evaluation of combat prowess. Nowhere it says that Anakin is enormously better duelist. It says that the difference is enormous. And this difference is clearly seen between how Anakin fights against Dooku and later against Kenobi. Anakin, when fighting Dooku was slow and clumsy. Against Kenobi he fought literally twice faster and technical level was far more advanced. Just re-watch fight scenes and look at how slow Anakin and Dooku are comparing to Vader and Kenobi.

So Anakin was potentially more powerful with the force, but never reached that potential by the time of their duel on Mustafar--- hence his TK attack being equal to Kenobi's...?

Sure, I can buy that. All I'm saying is that his force power certainly didn't come off as more powerful then.


Look. Greater power allows Force users to reach deeper concentration. As example Dorsk 81 by tapping into reserves of other Jedi and prolong concentration managed to send 14 star destroyers out of orbit. He couldn't achieve such focus straight away, it took him a long time.
Focus during channeling progressively increases until limit is reached.

At some point Kenobi would reach his limit but Anakin would continue drawing on Force heavier and heavier. Anakin's potential would allow him to reach deeper concentration without getting exhausted.

DARTH POWER Senior Member

Originally posted by Galan007

Anakin could also use force lightning in the game, iirc. Maybe that isn't the most accurate source to go by. 🙂

But wasn't the Force Lightning only shown during gameplay? Gameplay moves/powers are not canon.

Originally posted by Galan007
hence the one TK attack he used being equal to Kenobi's.

Well according to the script it wasn't actually an attack. Kenobi attacked and Skywalker blocked.

According to the novel however Skywalker does force slam Kenobi against the wall at one point.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by Arhael
Levels is not nonsense, it is evaluation of combat prowess.
As the levels concept pertains to Kenobi and Vader, it is absolutely nonsense. There was not an enormous difference between them on Mustafar. Simple.

Originally posted by Arhael
At some point Kenobi would reach his limit but Anakin would continue drawing on Force heavier and heavier. Anakin's potential would allow him to reach deeper concentration without getting exhausted.
Anakin could have, sure. Vader, though? There is no proof of that. He was experiencing so much confliction/guilt/remorse/doubt by that point(per Lucas), that deep concentration was likely beyond him.

Again: Anakin and Vader possessed 2 completely different sets of emotions. All other variables being equal, a calm/cool/collected force user(Anakin)>>a doubtful/guilty/conflicted force user(Vader). All day, every day.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But wasn't the Force Lightning only shown during gameplay? Gameplay moves/powers are not canon.
Don't remember, tbh. Wasn't being serious either way.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well according to the script it wasn't actually an attack. Kenobi attacked and Skywalker blocked.

According to the novel however Skywalker does force slam Kenobi against the wall at one point.

Yoda slammed Palpatine against a wall via TK-- that doesn't mean his powers were superior.

My only point is that the one time Vader and Kenobi launched simultaneous TK assaults, they were equal. No ground was given until they experienced a backlash which threw them both against the walls. Had Anakin's TK been superior -even slightly- he would have been shown to have some sort of advantage.

Could he have tapped into his pool of Christ power and overcame Kenobi? It's possible, I guess. Although considering the emotions Anakin was experiencing during that battle, it's unlikely imo. After all, he was given enough time to tap -at least some of- said power when they were locked in that TK-off, but still failed to gain any ground.

Jedi Mom Restricted

Pre-Suit Vader was obviously below his Jedi-self in swordsmanship, who's to say he wasn't below his Jedi-self in other aspects, such as TK?

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Feats? OT Vader has TK feats vastly beyond those of his PT self.

Arhael Devoid of reality

Originally posted by Galan007
As the levels concept pertains to Kenobi and Vader, it is absolutely nonsense. There was not an enormous difference between them on Mustafar. Simple.

There was. When one mercilessly attacks and another gives ground barely surviving, the difference is rather obvious. If Kenobi attempted to fight offensively, he would lose like Opress to Sidious.

Anakin could have, sure. Vader, though? There is no proof of that. He was experiencing so much confliction/guilt/remorse/doubt by that point(per Lucas), that deep concentration was likely beyond him.

Again: Anakin and Vader possessed 2 completely different sets of emotions. All other variables being equal, a calm/cool/collected force user(Anakin)>>a doubtful/guilty/conflicted force user(Vader). All day, every day.


Anakin's dominant emotion was rage, the emotion that empowers Force users by a lot consistently throughout EU. Better saber showing than against Dooku, also, supports it. During fight Anakin had no doubts, he was attacking non-stop to the point that he didn't care that Kenobi had higher ground.

This farther proves my point:
Anakin roared and flew at him, using both the Force and his body to crash Obi-Wan back into the wall once more. His hands seized Obi-Wan's wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide. "I am so sick of your lectures!"

Dark power bore down with his grip.

Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks.

Oh, he thought. Oh, this is bad.

Hampered performance and impossible strength don't go along well.