ROTS Obi Wan Kenobi Vs Mace Windu

Started by Merlyn6 pages

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In that case how do we know Dooku > Kenobi with the Force? Let's face it Kenobi never countered Dooku's TK attacks with the Force.
Has Kenobi ever tried to use the force against Dooku? Either way, that's not the point he's making. The film itself already provided us with a scene where Anakin and Obi-Wan use their TK against one another at the same time, and it was identical. No advantage was shown, and they both experienced an equal amount of recoil from the attempt.

I'm sure Anakin had more raw energy reserves then Obi-Wan, but in that scene their TK definitely appeared equal.

Dooku has far better force feats than Kenobi though.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Dooku has far better force feats than Kenobi though.

So does Skywalker.

^ Again: Anakin has better force-feats, Vader does not. 🙂

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Again: Anakin has better force-feats, Vader does not. 🙂

Temple Statue remember?

Where does gameplay rank in canonicity? Compared to the novel for example?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Temple Statue remember?
Has Kenobi ever tried, and failed, to lift something of that size? I do not recall any such instances. That being said, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

For example, we've never seen Cin Drallig use the force to lift something of comparable size to that statue. However, that didn't stop him from soaking Vader's TK attack, before using his own TK to throw him out of a window:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfW4vK-Fu1A
(3:15)

Same coin, while Kenobi has apparently never had the need to lift an object of that size, it didn't stop him from matching Vader's TK when they fought:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DDSDPZN8zk

Originally posted by Galan007
Has Kenobi ever tried, and failed, to lift something of that size? I do not recall any such instances. That being said, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

For example, we've never seen Cin Drallig use the force to lift something of comparable size to that statue. However, that didn't stop him from soaking Vader's TK attack, before using his own TK to throw him out of a window:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfW4vK-Fu1A
(3:15)

Same coin, while Kenobi has apparently never had the need to lift an object of that size, it didn't stop him from matching Vader's TK when they fought:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DDSDPZN8zk

Yeah the idea that lack of feats don't necessarily mean a person can't do those feats is fine.

But then by that logic Dooku's superior feats would also be moot. As we've never seen Kenobi attempt to lift Multiple Stone Pillars, or attempt to Force Choke Dooku e.t.c.

I personally think Kenobi's really not got an excuse for a lack of feats given the amount of exposure he's had.

Whilst Cin Drallig has hardly been seen at all in Canon so we would have only a very small idea of what he's capable of.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah the idea that lack of feats don't necessarily mean a person can't do those feats is fine.

But then by that logic Dooku's superior feats would also be moot. As we've never seen Kenobi attempt to lift Multiple Stone Pillars, or attempt to Force Choke Dooku e.t.c.

The part you're apparently not understanding is that Kenobi has done absolutely nothing which suggests that he is remotely comparable to Dooku with the force. Conversely, Kenobi has preformed a feat which heavily suggests that he was on par with Vader in the force.

See the difference?

I will just remind people.. Anakin's ACTIONS and WORDS were not one of somebody conflicted or upset or remorseful.. Those emotions being dominate would look like

1. Anakin admitting he messed up.. especially with his love there. Even if not admitting he messed up.. Showign SOME sign of being sad.. head down.. sad.. expressing regret.. SOMETHING.. He did NON of that.

2. He wouldn't have choked and almost killed the love of his life if his dominate emotions were sadness, regret, guilt etc etc. Instead that is EXACTLY what he did.. further proving those were the furthest thing from his mind

3. He wouldn't have attacked his former master and father figure with such agression and anger with NO sign of regret or remorse or guilt if those were dominate emotions

Instead of showing these emotions he was supposedly overwhelmed by... he showed the exact opposite... "My empire" "If you're not with me you're against me" "You under estimate my power" "I'm sick of your lectures" No indication of anything other than a lust for power and anger.. like literally NOTHING besides those things when Kenobi showed up. It's beyond clear that whatever guilt he was feeling.. was pretty much all gone by the time Kenobi showed up and he had accepted who he had become.

Originally posted by Galan007
The part you're apparently not understanding is that Kenobi has done absolutely nothing which suggests that he is remotely comparable to Dooku with the force. Conversely, Kenobi has preformed a feat which heavily suggests that he was on par with Vader in the force.

See the difference?

I understand that. I just think it was a one-off. End of the day if Kenobi was equally as powerful in Force Power, then why was he being "Forced Backwards" like the script says?

That seems to me to suggest Skywalker was more powerful. That and when you read the novel it's clear Skywalker was more powerful.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I understand that. I just think it was a one-off. End of the day if Kenobi was equally as powerful in Force Power, then why was he being "Forced Backwards" like the script says?
Kenobi was 'forced back' because he uses a very passive form of combat, while Anakin uses a very aggressive form of combat. Furthermore, that statement was made before Kenobi stopped holding back. I'd also like to add that the ability to force an opponent back in a saber match doesn't mean much in the way of superiority-- Palpatine, for example, was able to "force the mighty Windu back" during the initial phase of their duel, yet was still "overpowered" by Mace in the end. /shrug

Regardless, it still doesn't change what we saw happen on screen-- the TK attacks of Vader and Kenobi were equal.

Originally posted by Galan007
If there was an "enormous" difference between them, Anakin would have made short work of Kenobi, regardless of the amount of ground present. I don't think you fully understand what the word "enormous" truly means.

enor·mous
marked by extraordinarily great size, number, or degree; especially : exceeding usual bounds or accepted notions.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/enormous


Anakin would make short work out of him, if Kenobi fought offensively like Opress against Sidious.

By fighting defensively you can stalemate any opponent regardless of his superiority over you. Because if you constantly move away, opponent will simply unable to attack you effectively.

Regardless, your interpretation of word "enormous" does not nulify the fact that Anakin was given level 9 prowess for this specific fight. We can ignore this word, if you want, it remains the fact that Anakin's performance was "up there with Sidious", when fighting Kenobi.

In any case, if you want to elevate Kenobi to level 9, I am fine with it too, after all he outskilled brothers.


No, they'll still fight. They just won't be able to fight as well as they could without said emotions hindering them.

Doubt/conflict/remorse/guilt continuously gnaw away at force users-- not unlike a cancer. This has always been the case throughout any SW media.


It's a matter of what character thinks during the fight. He had remorse of his actions, yet, it wasn't what he was thinking about during the fight. Hatred for Kenobi was all he had on his mind. That's for you to prove, if Anakin had any sence of guilt/conflict/remorse/guilt during the fight or that his performance was hampered in any way.

So far the only thing novel suggests is that his strength was such that he nearly broke Kenobi's wrists and anger and fury are the only emotions that are mentioned.

Everything implies that Anakin had huge power boost:
Anakin forced him back and back, slamming his blade down with strength that seemed to flow from the volcano overhead. He spun and whirled and sliced razor-sharp shards of steel from the wall and shot them at Obi-Wan with the full heat of his fury.

You act like Anakin wasn't 'tremendously empowered' before he became Vader:

"The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike."

"Now, as for Skywalker- Which was as far as Dooku got, because by the time his attention returned to the younger Jedi, his vision was rather completely obstructed by the sole of a boot approaching his face with something resembling terminal velocity."

"There was a thermonuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training."


No, I don't act like he wasn't empowered before becoming Vader, otherwise he wouldn't beat Dooku on two occasions.
Example you provided shows that Anakin was empowered by rage but he still was restraining himself, trying to control his emotions. Darkside Anakin does not try to control his rage, he dropped his restraints entirely, taking full advantage of his fury.

Yet another example that doesn't prove your point. We already knew Anakin/Vader could force push. That quote, however, says nothing of Vader's ability to outdo Kenobi in a force vs. force scenario. Hell, if Vader weren't attempting to defend, Kenobi could bash him against a wall with the force as well.

Ok, then Dooku Force handling Kenobi can also be dismissed, since Kenobi did not attempt to resist. And indeed, that's what Dooku does, he catches opponents offguard, when they are least likely to resist. Imho Dooku wouldn't be able to overpower Kenobi in direct contest.

My point is that, if both characters have equal Force mastery, neither will be able to overpower another even, if power difference is huge.

As example look at fights of Luke and Abeloth. Luke was stalemating her in strength and that's when he stated that she was multiple times more powerful than him. With TK and lightning she couldn't defeat him either. But in every fight Luke was getting exhausted.

Example: Cin Drallig soaked one of Anakin's TK attacks, and proceeded to forcibly throw him out of a window:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfW4vK-Fu1A
(3:15)
^^That's the kind of evidence you need to provide if you want me to believe that Vader's TK was ">>>" Kenobi's.

Imho Cin Drallig demonstrated rare ability of absorbing TK, which was demonstrated only by Corran Horn and Kota, which means that Cin Dralig simply used Anakin's power against him. Or maybe he simply blocked and counter attacked, you can't be sure, when it comes to visual feats.

And I don't get you. Cin Drallig's feat of Force pushing Anakin qualifies but Anakin pushing Kenobi against a wall doesn't? What's the difference?

Good counter.

That scene explicitly shows us that, when Vader/Kenobi launch TK attacks simultaneously, they are equal. If Anakin's force power was intended to be superior, he would have gained some sort of ground during that scene-- but that wasn't the case. Ergo: Vader=Kenobi.


Ones again. They got split by explosion. Otherwise Anakin would keep drawing heavier on the Force, while Kenobi would reach his limit at some point.

As example Marek was reaching into the Force deeper and deeper to the point that he managed to move star destroyer. And despite that he couldn't simply overpower other characters and had to engage them in saber combat.

Same for Luke. Despite his superiority, he couldn't simply overpower other equally skilled opponents like Lumiya and had to engage them in saber combat.

With responses a week apart, don't expect me to keep much interest in this(tbh, I'd completely forgotten about it.) 👇

Originally posted by Arhael
if you want to elevate Kenobi to level 9, I am fine with it too, after all he outskilled brothers.
That'd certainly make a LOT more sense than assuming an "enormous" difference existed between them on Mustafar.

Originally posted by Arhael
It's a matter of what character thinks during the fight. He had remorse of his actions, yet, it wasn't what he was thinking about during the fight. Hatred for Kenobi was all he had on his mind. That's for you to prove, if Anakin had any sence of guilt/conflict/remorse/guilt [b]during the fight or that his performance was hampered in any way.[/B]
Lucas himself stated that Anakin was feeling extremely guilty/remorseful/conflicted/doubtful/etc. not long before he and Kenobi fought. So the burden of proof falls entirely on you to prove those emotions simply... Went away during their battle on Mustafar.

Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that the predominate emotion during said battle was anger. That, however, doesn't change the fact that the other emotions were still present within Anakin on some level-- and those emotions do nothing but hinder a force-user.

Originally posted by Arhael
Everything implies that Anakin had huge power boost:
Anakin forced him back and back, slamming his blade down with [b]strength that seemed to flow from the volcano overhead
. He spun and whirled and sliced razor-sharp shards of steel from the wall and shot them at Obi-Wan with the full heat of his fury.[/B]
A huge power boost? Lol, give me a break. Several of the quotes made during Anakin's fight with Dooku are much, MUCH better than being compared to a volcano. none

Originally posted by Arhael
No, I don't act like he wasn't empowered before becoming Vader, otherwise he wouldn't beat Dooku on two occasions.
Example you provided shows that Anakin was empowered by rage but he still was restraining himself, trying to control his emotions. Darkside Anakin does not try to control his rage, he dropped his restraints entirely, taking full advantage of his fury.
Yes, and per Lucas he was also feeling guilty/remorseful/conflicted/doubtful/etc.

Emotions like those don't just go away. Heck, Vader felt those emotions until the day he died.

Originally posted by Arhael
Ok, then Dooku Force handling Kenobi can also be dismissed, since Kenobi did not attempt to resist. And indeed, that's what Dooku does, he catches opponents offguard, when they are least likely to resist. Imho Dooku wouldn't be able to overpower Kenobi in direct contest.
Don't act stupid for the sake of acting stupid.

Dooku has demonstrated FAR more power/control/mastery over the force than Kenobi has. Pre-suit Vader hasn't. HUGE difference.

Originally posted by Arhael
Imho Cin Drallig demonstrated rare ability of absorbing TK, which was demonstrated only by Corran Horn and Kota, which means that Cin Dralig simply used Anakin's power against him. Or maybe he simply blocked and counter attacked, you can't be sure, when it comes to visual feats.
Your opinion doesn't matter if it cannot be substantiated.

Originally posted by Arhael
And I don't get you. Cin Drallig's feat of Force pushing Anakin qualifies but Anakin pushing Kenobi against a wall doesn't? What's the difference?
The difference is that before Cin force-pushed Anakin out of the window, he negated/caught/overpowered Anakin's TK attack. Had Anakin no-sold one of Kenobi's TK attacks, it'd be comparable to what Cin did.

But as it stands, the one time we saw Vader and Kenobi use simultaneous TK assaults, they were equal.

Hey Galan, could you give the source/interview/quote where GL says Anakin felt all these emotions? I believe you and agree by the way, just want to be able to prove it.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Hey Galan, could you give the source/interview/quote where GL says Anakin felt all these emotions? I believe you and agree by the way, just want to be able to prove it.
The source is the Director's Commentary portion of the RotS DVD. Here are the statements from Lucas I'm referring to:

*"Anakin knows murdering a bunch of [Younglings] was wrong, but he won't admit it to Padme. He tries rationalizing his decisions in spite of knowing they are wrong."

*"The tear in this scene [when Anakin is alone on Mustafar after murdering the Federation members] shows that Anakin knows what he's doing is wrong, but he has now committed himself to a path he may not agree with."

*"If Anakin had to turn to the dark side all over again, he probably wouldn't have."

*"There is still good in him."

Like I've said before: Anakin felt so badly about the decisions he'd made, that he was literally crying over them. Emotions that strong don't just... Go away over a short period of time. none

Awesome, thanks. 👆

This settles it. I don't see how a fair argument for Pre-Suit Vader>Jedi Anakin can be made now.

Galan buddy.. At least you agree anger was the dominate emotion he was feeling, and he likely wasn't feeling much else besides that.

What he was feeling BEFORE that fight isn't really relevant to what he was feeling. As i said... Just because a guy kills a little innocent kid.. do you think he'll be thinking about that when if a guy attacks him in a alley with a knife or will he he fight to survive and not have that in his mind. Seems obvious he won't be thinking of that much if at all. Further, what if siad guy kills a little kid and then runs into a guy who murdered his mother or who stole his wife and he's coming to kill him. Do you honestly think he'll be thinking of the innocent kid he killed? Come on big buddy. Anakin's emotions before the fight clearly don't indicate how he was feeling at the time. His actions showed the EXACT OPOOSITE of feeling anything bug angry or power hungry...

1. He never admitted to Kenobi or padme he was wrong or made a mistake.
2. Shit, he didn't even show a gesture that he was upset.. not holding down of the head.. no shaking of the head.. NOTHING that indicated he was upset by what he did. If there was a person or time to admit it or show it.. it would be with his love or kenobi... He showed NONE of that.
3. Too make it worse he then tries to kill his love.. yet you're telling me he was feeling guilty or remorseful... Not only would've he have shown something like that.. he certainly wouldn't have tried to kill her if he was feeling the least bit of anything like that.
4. There was mention of Kenobi holding back against anakin yet not ONE mention of Anakin holding back.. NOT ONE.. You would think if he waw feeling anything other than anger.. he would feel upset or hold back from killing his brother father figure.. NO sign of that.

I think it's beyond clear he wasn't feeling much of anything. If he was, it was so slight it was insignifcant to the battle at hand.

Arguing with Arhael is a complete waste of time.

Fighting defensively is just as much of a skill as fighting offensively; they are just two completely different styles of fighting. If someones skill in defense is such that it allows him to stalemate/win an opponent whose skill is in offense, then the gap between them is not enormous. Period.

Gillard ranked them based on their skills in swordsmanship, and Kenobi's skill and style is based on defense, and he was still labeled as a level 8, which is said to be inferior to a level 9 by an enormous difference. Yet there was not an enormous difference between Anakin and Obi Wan.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Arguing with Arhael is a complete waste of time.

😆