Originally posted by JakeTheBank
What?So, basically, you think Thor can't harm Doomsday based on Doomsday rolling through the JLA + Superman (even though individual members of that roster including Superman himself had plenty of feats to suggest they could harm some incredibly powerful beings) and at the same time dismiss the many times Thor's harmed people way outside his tier? How does that even begin to make sense? And how does that equate to me saying "Doomsday's feat doesn't count"?
Four decades? Try within the past few years, bro. barker
Now you're just being ridiculous here. 100s of appearances across 40+ titles? Really? No one's saying that, so please, keep your hyperbolic projected arguments out of this thread. If you read Thor's ongoings (from JMS up to Aaron) in addition to his role in the Avengers franchise and events since his return from death, you'd easily see the feats he's displayed routinely to suggest him hurting Doomsday and surviving the encounter as well. Ignoring it and instead looking at the seldom times he's been KO'd or looked less than spectacular and trying to argue that those comics hold more weight than his own titles is painfully transparent, self serving, and lowballing alike.
Thor can totally beat Doomsday without BFR.
You are doing nothing but repeating yourself here. Sure Thor has some good showings but his bad showings outweigh them. JMS' thor had odinpower and Aaron had freaking Rachel summers totally no selling thor's double hand mjolnir attack. Thor isn't surviving DOS doomsday let alone winning.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
He made the harness for Superman and even stated that "we've" got to pull the planet back into place. It makes zero sense for Hal to not contribute anything to that effort especially when we have dialogue telling us it was a joint effort. Sure, I can buy Superman doing most of the work, but to try and quantify how much work or state Superman did all of it doesn't make sense.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Sure I would. Doomsday rolling through JLA isn't jobbing on their part. It was set as a standard level for a character making his debut. Sure they have and they haven't hurt lesser beings than those. On average Thor's power output would be easily tanked by doomsday. Sure Thor has hurt people outside his tier but superman has made a career out of those showings. Doomsday would tank thor's hits like he did to superman.You are doing nothing but repeating yourself here. Sure Thor has some good showings but his bad showings outweigh them. JMS' thor had odinpower and Aaron had freaking Rachel summers totally no selling thor's double hand mjolnir attack. Thor isn't surviving DOS doomsday let alone winning.
Thor's "average" power output is enough to hurt Doomsday. His no holding back power output is definitely enough to hurt Doomsday. Considering all the people whom Thor's consistently been able to hurt, there's no reason to think that Thor can't hope to hurt Doomsday at all. Sure, Doomsday would shrug off Thor's love taps, but as the fight progressed, Thor's more powerful attacks would effect him.
What? "Some" good showings? Reread his on-goings and the Thor centric events and minis he's been in since he came back. JMS Thor had Odinforce for the majority of his run, yes; I used it as a reference point to start counting "current" Thor. And in AvX, Thor shattered P-5 Emma's physical form and clipped the PF's wings. That's without considering the various feats people like Gieron, Fraction, Bendis, and others have had Thor do since he returned to comics. Not sure how anyone who actually has read Thor books for the past several years can seriously argue that they somehow have less weight concerning his showings in random books and ignore Thor's good showings in the same breath.
Thor's survived worst than DoS Doomsday. More than once.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Thor's "average" power output is enough to hurt Doomsday. His no holding back power output is definitely enough to hurt Doomsday. Considering all the people whom Thor's consistently been able to hurt, there's no reason to think that Thor can't hope to hurt Doomsday at all. Sure, Doomsday would shrug off Thor's love taps, but as the fight progressed, Thor's more powerful attacks would effect him.What? "Some" good showings? Reread his on-goings and the Thor centric events and minis he's been in since he came back. JMS Thor had Odinforce for the majority of his run, yes; I used it as a reference point to start counting "current" Thor. And in AvX, Thor shattered P-5 Emma's physical form and clipped the PF's wings. That's without considering the various feats people like Gieron, Fraction, Bendis, and others have had Thor do since he returned to comics. Not sure how anyone who actually has read Thor books for the past several years can seriously argue that they somehow have less weight concerning his showings in random books and ignore Thor's good showings in the same breath.
Thor's survived worst than DoS Doomsday. More than once.
That's like one good showing in which he destroyed Emma's diamond body and then got ****ing destroyed in h2h. Naked form PF doesn't has any durability feat to its credit. Xorn tore it apart and shiar have made it their *****. Considering how much he was nerfed, ****ing rulk performed better against both Emma and Cyclops. You don't get it, having a few good feats in your own comic is no big deal. Its how you perform compared to other characters which matters.
Thor has been in mortal danger more times by being way below DOS Doomsday than vice versa. Remember Durok?
Originally posted by abhilegend
No, he wouldn't. Superman has hurt people way above his tier and he didn't hurt doomsday combined with JLA. Its called the law of averages. Unless you think on average Thor packs more power than Superman+JLA.That's like one good showing in which he destroyed Emma's diamond body and then got ****ing destroyed in h2h. Naked form PF doesn't has any durability feat to its credit. Xorn tore it apart and shiar have made it their *****. Considering how much he was nerfed, ****ing rulk performed better against both Emma and Cyclops. You don't get it, having a few good feats in your own comic is no big deal. Its how you perform compared to other characters which matters.
Thor has been in mortal danger more times by being way below DOS Doomsday than vice versa. Remember Durok?
Superman not hurting Doomsday with the JLA and then turning around and hurting Doomsday once he went into "srs bizness" mode means what? It certainly doesn't mean you can take Thor and force him into whatever preconceived "average" depiction you feel like and dismiss the numerous times he's gone all out which more than support him hurting Doomsday.
He was decimated due to Emma regenerating. And even so, that's just AvX alone. Not Fear Itself or Siege or the countless other beings whom Thor has rocked over the handful of recent years.
And what's this? Thor's own comic doesn't matter or count as much as Thor outside of his book due to how he's compared with other characters? This makes no sense. An ongoing series centered around a specific character clearly and very obviously holds more weight than a book NOT dedicated to their development as a character and various centric plots and story lines. That much is made abundantly clear when team books and crossover events often don't reference the goings on in said characters ongoing or even have the time to develop said character nearly to the degree or depth that an ongoing would. That's like saying Spider-Man as he appeared in the Avengers titles is more accurate and paints a better picture of the character than how he was portrayed in Amazing Spider-Man. Makes no sense at all. Guest roles and appearances outside of their ongoing certainly count for characters, but they don't overrule them in terms of significance. That's why single characters have ongoings to begin with, especially someone like Thor who was introduced as a solo character before he was an Avenger. facepalm
The same guy who Thor obliterated without Mjolnir? What the hell about him? You seem to think that Thor will just stay in what you feel is his "average" mindset/depiction and won't be willing to go to the lengths needed to beat Doomsday.
Originally posted by carver9
Don't get why ABHI even brought up the JLA roster when Superman soloed Doomsday and killed him.
Wha? You cant possibly be remotely serious about this statement (as anyone who actually read DOS knows that clearly wasnt so).
DOS Doomsday is too much for just any single Herald level foe, he was a match for Superman + JLA + Supergirl (Matrix) + LexCorp weaponry. I dont see Thor or Hulk even being that.
Originally posted by ODG
Doomsday basically went the way of Abomination. The basic concept underlying him just continually eroded over the years (with one or two exceptions) until it pretty much hit bottom. That's really all there is to it.Meanwhile, Thor fought off WWH amped with a Mjolnir knockoff while double-teamed by another entity that had curbstomped Rulk almost effortlessly (Angrir). All while fighting like Superman. The method of battle here doesn't seem all that relevant in the face of that.
oh, i'm not arguing what happened to the character later on. it hurt me inside a little. 🙁
i know what you're saying about thor, but you could probably say the same or similar things about that era's superman or guy gardner i think. i think we're just looking at it differently. i've said this before--i personally have a hard time divorcing dd from his intended characterization. thor could bfr and win, no doubt. if i sub in thor in that book, i just see a similar result if he fought like he traditionally might. throughout the book dd was getting stronger and faster. as a plot device, i can pretty easily see him adapting to whatever thor would throw at him. likewise hulk. he could just keep amping his strength and healing, and then there is his speed.
Originally posted by -Pr-
You guys really don't like what they did with Doomsday? Or are we talking about that last, horrible arc he was in?
well, after hp we had that disaster called rex. i also didn't like what they did with him in the imperiex arc very much, though getting ashed by imperiex isn't exactly a low showing i know....
i liked the idea of dd in the gog wars arc a lot, but we never really saw his capabilities. the brainiac stuff didn't work for me either.
you never really gave your input though. you think thor or hulk would fare better than supes did in that last battle?
Originally posted by leonidas
well, after hp we had that disaster called rex. i also didn't like what they did with him in the imperiex arc very much, though getting ashed by imperiex isn't exactly a low showing i know....i liked the idea of dd in the gog wars arc a lot, but we never really saw his capabilities. the brainiac stuff didn't work for me either.
you never really gave your input though. you think thor or hulk would fare better than supes did in that last battle?
depends. are we talking about a forum battle, or how it would go if doomsday was introduced in to a comic with the same intent as he was in dc?
Originally posted by -Pr-
depends. are we talking about a forum battle, or how it would go if doomsday was introduced in to a comic with the same intent as he was in dc?
lol, that's the same thing i always have trouble with. i don't think it was made very clear, so i do think there are 2 legit ways to view this topic.
Originally posted by leonidas
lol, that's the same thing i always have trouble with. i don't think it was made very clear, so i do think there are 2 legit ways to view this topic.
lol ah.
Well obviously if it was a comic, someone gonna die. And even if it's Doomsday, he's going to take a few with him.
In a forum fight, though, I can see Thor beating him. Doomsday was a herald back then even by today's standards, so he's not going down easy. I think Hulk would have a harder time with him due to his obvious limitations, but I still think he'd probably take it.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Superman not hurting Doomsday with the JLA and then turning around and hurting Doomsday once he went into "srs bizness" mode means what? It certainly doesn't mean you can take Thor and force him into whatever preconceived "average" depiction you feel like and dismiss the numerous times he's gone all out which more than support him hurting Doomsday.He was decimated due to Emma regenerating. And even so, that's just AvX alone. Not Fear Itself or Siege or the countless other beings whom Thor has rocked over the handful of recent years.
And what's this? Thor's own comic doesn't matter or count as much as Thor outside of his book due to how he's compared with other characters? This makes no sense. An ongoing series centered around a specific character clearly and very obviously holds more weight than a book NOT dedicated to their development as a character and various centric plots and story lines. That much is made abundantly clear when team books and crossover events often don't reference the goings on in said characters ongoing or even have the time to develop said character nearly to the degree or depth that an ongoing would. That's like saying Spider-Man as he appeared in the Avengers titles is more accurate and paints a better picture of the character than how he was portrayed in Amazing Spider-Man. Makes no sense at all. Guest roles and appearances outside of their ongoing certainly count for characters, but they don't overrule them in terms of significance. That's why single characters have ongoings to begin with, especially someone like Thor who was introduced as a solo character before he was an Avenger. facepalm
The same guy who Thor obliterated without Mjolnir? What the hell about him? You seem to think that Thor will just stay in what you feel is his "average" mindset/depiction and won't be willing to go to the lengths needed to beat Doomsday.
They don't take the precedence but to pretend that 21 issues of fraction thor makes the low showings thor had in almost 100 other issues is laughable. Yes, thor has hurt beings above his tiers but that doesn't raises his average higher against his own peers. He fought evenly with surfer and then caved galactus' head in while Odin's headbutt did nothing to G. That doesn't means that Thor didn't fought surfer evenly. BRB also cracked G's armor and then got owned by surfer. The thing is, a character hurting skyfathers and abstracts is all right but it doesn't denotes their average portrayals. Their performance against their peers denote that.
Remember how he nearly killed thor? That would be the average portrayal of Thor. Thor doesn't goes busting beings above his strength levels on average. He wouldn't go to the length to which you're clinging to, CIS is on. Nothing thor would do on average would be sufficient to stop doomsday.
Originally posted by carver9If you would have read my post on the force it took to achieve the feat then you would know that assuming 50/50 that Superman was applying more than 50 Earth weights of force.
Also, in the scan you presented, Lantern said "we've got to pull".
Not all planet pushing is the same. The faster you push a planet then the more force it takes. F= Mass times Acceleration
Barely moving a planet vs. moving it at great acceleration and the difference is astronomical.
Originally posted by abhilegend
It means that All out superman>superman+JLA. It wasn't for the first time and it wouldn't be the last time it happened.They don't take the precedence but to pretend that 21 issues of fraction thor makes the low showings thor had in almost 100 other issues is laughable. Yes, thor has hurt beings above his tiers but that doesn't raises his average higher against his own peers. He fought evenly with surfer and then caved galactus' head in while Odin's headbutt did nothing to G. That doesn't means that Thor didn't fought surfer evenly. BRB also cracked G's armor and then got owned by surfer. The thing is, a character hurting skyfathers and abstracts is all right but it doesn't denotes their average portrayals. Their performance against their peers denote that.
Remember how he nearly killed thor? That would be the average portrayal of Thor. Thor doesn't goes busting beings above his strength levels on average. He wouldn't go to the length to which you're clinging to, CIS is on. Nothing thor would do on average would be sufficient to stop doomsday.
And what does that have to do with Thor? All out Thor does crazy shit that's beyond his peers and allies alike as well unless you're arguing he won't go that far against Doomsday or even if he does it won't matter, both of which don't make sense.
21 issues? I'm not just talking about "Mighty Thor" by Fraction. I'm talking the issues of Thor - prior to it being re-titled Journey into Mystery - he did prior to that, the issues done by Gillen, the issues JMS did (barring OF Thor of course), all the Thor mini series and one shots, events such as Siege, Chaos War, and Fear Itself, and his showings in the Avengers book in addition to AvX. So, unless you want to prove that there's literally "100s" of low showings that demote Thor somehow and how those showings hold more weight than everything I've listed, your point is invalid.
And when Thor took the kid gloves off, he obliterated him. And Thor won't stop holding back and unleash his higher end attacks and feats because you said so? How does that make sense? No one's saying Thor's going to start acting like Tournament Mode Thor or anything. When the stakes are high, Thor operates on a higher level. Nothing CIS off about it. And per the OP, this is the "final stand" part of DoS in the Marvel Universe. There's no reason Thor - or Hulk - in this battle WON'T go all out and operate above their "average".