Originally posted by DTM
Wha? You cant possibly be remotely serious about this statement (as anyone who actually read DOS knows that clearly wasnt so).DOS Doomsday is too much for just any single Herald level foe, he was a match for Superman + JLA + Supergirl (Matrix) + LexCorp weaponry. I dont see Thor or Hulk even being that.
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Originally posted by JakeTheBank
There's no reason Thor - or Hulk - in this battle WON'T go all out and operate above their "average".
my only issue with this is--superman DID go all out. in the context of the story, it's the hardest he ever fought. the same argument can be brought to bear regarding supes--supes has also fought well above his average and beat people he wasn't supposed to many times. and he still died. for my part, i've been assuming thor and hulk would be going all out, (for thor, going all out to me would be lightning and striking, not including a gb or bfr though i get it if anyone says his best would include those things) fighting at their best. i'm just not sure their best is necessarily better than superman's best.
Originally posted by leonidas
my only issue with this is--superman DID go all out. in the context of the story, it's the hardest he ever fought. the same argument can be brought to bear regarding supes--supes has also fought well above his average and beat people he wasn't supposed to many times. and he still died. for my part, i've been assuming thor and hulk would be going all out, (for thor, going all out to me would be lightning and striking, not including a gb or bfr though i get it if anyone says his best would include those things) fighting at their best. i'm just not sure their best is necessarily better than superman's best.
I'm not saying he didn't.
All I'm saying is that given feats from both Hulk and Thor, them going all out fighting to the death certainly enables them to win this match. My only real issue given this thread is the fact that Abhi thinks there's nothing but lowballing going around against Doomsday, but in the same breath, legitimately believes that Thor's appearances in AvX, Avengers Assemble, and his other guest appearances in the past year (of which he believes there's hundreds) somehow outweigh all of Thor's impressive feats within recent years.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I'm not saying he didn't.
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it just sounded a little (unintentionally i'm aware) like you were ascribing an argument that fits BOTH sides equally well. imo to suggest thor or hulk wins, (i'm talking about ONE fight, not a number out of ten) you need to either believe thor/hulk>superman fighting at his best, or you need to believe dd wouldn't be able to adapt to either one of them. i'm just curious about which way you're thinking. or if there's something else you're thinking that i missed.
All I'm saying is that given feats from both Hulk and Thor, them going all out fighting to the death certainly enables them to win this match. My only real issue given this thread is the fact that Abhi thinks there's nothing but lowballing going around against Doomsday, but in the same breath, legitimately believes that Thor's appearances in AvX, Avengers Assemble, and his other guest appearances in the past year (of which he believes there's hundreds) somehow outweigh all of Thor's impressive feats within recent years. [/B]
lol well.....you're surprised?
Originally posted by leonidas
👆it just sounded a little (unintentionally i'm aware) like you were ascribing an argument that fits BOTH sides equally well. imo to suggest thor or hulk wins, (i'm talking about ONE fight, not a number out of ten) you need to either believe thor/hulk>superman fighting at his best, or you need to believe dd wouldn't be able to adapt to either one of them. i'm just curious about which way you're thinking. or if there's something else you're thinking that i missed.
lol well.....you're surprised?
I think that Hulk would likely fare better than Thor simply due to his amping and healing, both of which increase with anger. I could see even Savage Hulk winning after a grueling contest. As far as Thor goes, his main claim to fame and most powerful attacks are from a magical hammer and massive energy output. That's not to say he's more powerful than or better than Superman, just that his method of fighting is different than Kal's. Kal was hurting himself due to relying on his bare hands (his bread and butter as far as attacks go). Thor would have no issues on that front considering his primary offensive capabilities. He also has the means to dictate the flow of the fight by attacking Doomsday from afar if he so chooses or various weather conditions. Even assuming DD begins to adapt and the like, we still have Thor being capable of regularly phasing beings well outside his "tier" when he's confronted against them. To that end, I find it unlikely that, given the thread's scenario, that an all out fighting to the bitter end Thor couldn't slay DoS Doomsday.
Not really, no, unfortunately.
Originally posted by leonidasDo you have a hard time divorcing the concept of Abomination as being definitively Savage Hulk's superior from where he is right now? And it's not like he remained static either, he was upgraded even a few times. Do you think Abomination would beat the crap out of Thor since Thor could never definitively beat Savage Hulk over decades of fights?
oh, i'm not arguing what happened to the character later on. it hurt me inside a little. 🙁i know what you're saying about thor, but you could probably say the same or similar things about that era's superman or guy gardner i think. i think we're just looking at it differently. i've said this before--i personally have a hard time divorcing dd from his intended characterization. thor could bfr and win, no doubt. if i sub in thor in that book, i just see a similar result if he fought like he traditionally might. throughout the book dd was getting stronger and faster. as a plot device, i can pretty easily see him adapting to whatever thor would throw at him. likewise hulk. he could just keep amping his strength and healing, and then there is his speed.
If you don't, then with regards to Doomsday, you're just holding onto his very first portrayal, which has been utterly diluted by subsequent events to the point of being outdated. Doing so, makes about as much sense as thinking Thor would get his butt whupped to holy hell by Abomination.
Originally posted by -Pr-After Hunter/Prey, you had things like Braniac using drugs to control Doomsday, Doomsday Rex getting no-sold by Superman, Doomsday clones being blown up by batarangs, Doomsday taking years to tunnel through granite, Doomsday getting defeated in 3 panels by two Supermen, Doomsday getting curbstomped by red-shirt Kyrptonians and then... Reign of Doomsdays. It was pretty bad.
You guys really don't like what they did with Doomsday? Or are we talking about that last, horrible arc he was in?
Originally posted by ODG
Do you have a hard time divorcing the concept of Abomination as being definitively Savage Hulk's superior from where he is right now? And it's not like he remained static either, he was upgraded even a few times. Do you think Abomination would beat the crap out of Thor since Thor could never definitively beat Savage Hulk over decades of fights?
different situations imo. there have been many characters who made an initial splash only to come dramatically down to earth afterwards. we could even throw logan into that stew.... dd was a little different. he killed superman. that's different from beating up hulk once 35yrs ago. he was created to be superman's ultimate foe. that's been sullied beyond recognition but doesn't change his intent in that particular arc nor his plot device power set. could thor win? sure. would he? i'm less sure of that.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I'm not saying he didn't.All I'm saying is that given feats from both Hulk and Thor, them going all out fighting to the death certainly enables them to win this match. My only real issue given this thread is the fact that Abhi thinks there's nothing but lowballing going around against Doomsday, but in the same breath, legitimately believes that Thor's appearances in AvX, Avengers Assemble, and his other guest appearances in the past year (of which he believes there's hundreds) somehow outweigh all of Thor's impressive feats within recent years.
I read through your guys' argument a bit. Of course Thor did have a rough year, but his low showings (I would know.) But it's not quite that bad.
-beaten twice by tutinax
-beaten by taurus
-cheap shot by Hulk
-ko'd once and injured once by badoon fodder.
-Rachel Grey if it can be considered one. She was on the ropes, she just blasted him back.
-knocked off panel by PF enhanced Marvell, then beaten in their round 2 also.
and those are the most note worthy ones.
Getting beat by the phoenix 5 isn't a low showing, nor is it a low showing to get beaten by the whole PF. Being put to sleep by Xavier isn't a low showing either.
And that's about it...
I have a hard time understanding how a rough year for Thor invites people to just ignore the other decades of good feats against peers he's got going for him. He's still top dog in Marvel with the Hulk being his closest peer.
Originally posted by JakeTheBankBut going by character Thor would most likely end up in a up close brawl with DD. And by DD being incredibly fast and relentless Thor could most likely be almost koed after a single savage combo by DD. Now out of character Thor could begin the fight staying ranged and not coming close. But again that DD was hella resistant against energy projection and very fast (hard to get a bead on).
I think that Hulk would likely fare better than Thor simply due to his amping and healing, both of which increase with anger. I could see even Savage Hulk winning after a grueling contest. As far as Thor goes, his main claim to fame and most powerful attacks are from a magical hammer and massive energy output. That's not to say he's more powerful than or better than Superman, just that his method of fighting is different than Kal's. Kal was hurting himself due to relying on his bare hands (his bread and butter as far as attacks go). Thor would have no issues on that front considering his primary offensive capabilities. He also has the means to dictate the flow of the fight by attacking Doomsday from afar if he so chooses or various weather conditions. Even assuming DD begins to adapt and the like, we still have Thor being capable of regularly phasing beings well outside his "tier" when he's confronted against them. To that end, I find it unlikely that, given the thread's scenario, that an all out fighting to the bitter end Thor couldn't slay DoS Doomsday.Not really, no, unfortunately.
DD's speed would be the problem that's causing Thor to do anything worthwhile. He would be on Thor like white on rice.
The "true" Doomsday is an absolute HORROR SHOW!
Undiluted and untarnished by the crappy showings that followed, Doomsday simply should not be in any sentence that involves him being easily overcome. Regardless of his opponent.
The only way Supes was able to defeat DD was to basically give up on the entire notion of making it out of the fight alive. "Surviving" was not part of the plan. He knew he had to get in there and what he had to do. He also knew what he was going to receive. It wasn't about a "fight". It was a sacrifice.
Superman had to give up his life to beat Doomsday. And, that is saying a lot. Any character involved in a physical battle with DD, should be in a life or death contest.