Lord Vitiate runs the gauntlet. · Star Wars Versus Forum

Intrepid37 Restricted

Originally posted by Nephthys
Unfortunately for you it is. But its more that its uncomparable to other speed feats. Is being 'impossibly fast' as fast as outrunning auto cannons? Who the **** knows, its obviously hyperbolic and ambiguous. Completely unusable in a debate.

Fortunately, if we assume that the autocannon shoots bullets the same speed as blasterbolts (which is a fair assumption), you can dodge them by being able to react instantaneous/in a blur.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, you can say it. Thats not the same thing as arguing.

By your logic, we must disregard every speed feat and assume everyone is equally fast. Moving your blade so fast it looks like lightning is [clearly] better than

Originally posted by Nephthys
Prove it.

Moving your blade so fast it looks like lightning is [clearly] better than moving in a blur. To quote yourself:

Originally posted by Nephthys
Being a 'blur' isn't going to impress anyone here.

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, SWTCE explicitly makes this clear.

Originally posted by ares834
Where?

You'd think beating her would make Meetra more powerful. Plus it was on Malachor V, an extremely potent darkside nexus. Shit don't make no sense!

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Here is an example of an individual twirling his blade with such a speed that he seems to be covered in his blade's light:

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Fortunately, if we assume that the autocannon shoots bullets the same speed as blasterbolts (which is a fair assumption), you can dodge them by being able to react instantaneous/in a blur.

Why would we assume that? The autocannons in question are mechanical and thus likely to be quite a bit faster than a normal human firing a blaster rifle. This is further supported by it being able to track and fire at a Sith Lord in motion, while itself attached to a speeder moving at extremely high speeds. Scourge himself notes that the cannons being autonomous are the only reason they could have been that accurate, indicating superhuman capability.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
By your logic, we must disregard every speed feat and assume everyone is equally fast. Moving your blade so fast it looks like lightning is [clearly] better than
Moving your blade so fast it looks like lightning is [clearly] better than moving in a blur. To quote yourself:

Why would I do that? Many speed feats are perfectly quantifiable or capable of being logically analysed. I only suggest we disregard subjective and hyperbolic descriptions of speed.

Not at all. That isn't proof at all, merely subjective assumptions. And incorrect ones at that. Its an extremely common bit of hyperbole to liken something to lightning. Perfectly human beings are described as moving 'fast as lightning' all the damn time in fiction. It proves nothing.

Intrepid37 Restricted

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I know this but his Force abilities were not sufficient against Sidious; he was utterly outclassed. Once again, you are treading in ambiguous territory. Terms such as "one of the strongest" do not prove much; for example: Tinn was "one of the strongest" Jedi in his time but he was still "no match" for lets say Yoda. Power level varies too much in Star Wars mythos. Authors introduce these colorful and impressive statements to make storylines interesting.

This is amusing. Being ''one of the strongest'' doesn't prove much, but the Jedi and Sith slain by Scourge being ''powerful'' does? ''Republic forces'' does? Moving with ''supernatural speed'' does?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Seriously? I understand that some authors delve a lot in to these aspects and talents of a Force-user but not every author does so. Multiple authors are contributing to the Star Wars lore and their writing styles are different from each other.

'Course they do. An example could easily be made that Karpyshan does exactly that, but you simply cannot ignore the feats of said characters. Otherwise, we must only make threads in which both combatants have been written about by the same author.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Once again you cannot make a point by simply relying upon "speed feats" to establish supposed superiority of a Force-user. Your focus should be on the holistic picture of characters in question.

Wait, you want to compare Scourge to Plagueis on other aspects?

You're welcome, but Plagueis wins in everything.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am no longer going to play this game with you anymore.

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, and this can make it possible for a martial opponent to duel with relatively more martial opponent in single combat provided that the lesser martial opponent has decent Force-Mastery.

Point is, everyone uses the force to guide their weapon. Pretty sure this is confirmed in Kenobi's fight against Grievous in RotS.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Fisto being a master of Form I will not necessarily make him adequate enough to compete with opponents who have mastered other forms of lightsaber combat.

This is true but not certain: otherwise, must we assume that every Makashi-user loses against every Djem So-user, and so on.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Your definition of fodder is skewed.

The quotes from Maul's journal show he is fodder.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I know it. This is irrelevant.

Not really.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And you know this how? Should I take your word for it? I have just established in this thread that HoT is better then Plagueis. You are obviously ignoring everything that does not fits in your worldwiew.

Simple: we compare them.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Point is that he can defeat Plagueis. Simple.

Prove it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Bullshit. Show me proof.

He taught the Sith who conquered the galaxy everything he knew and more.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not going to bother wasting time with you anymore by re-quoting information again and again.

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes.

By ''virtually'' do you mean ''almost''?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Feat explained here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=338155&pagenumber=7#post14342184

How did he do it?

Either way, that's pretty damn good.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Doesn't rules out his powers.

If it's non-canon, it does.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Good for him.
Jedi Master Orgus Din collapsed a large cave with just one hand. And he is outclassed by many in his era.

Quote/link?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is from novelization. Seriously, my entire argument just flew over your head. You have started to sound like a lost cause here.

facepalm

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revelations offered in SWTORE represent 3rd party views of events and I will stick by them.

I'll stick with mine.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have understood it; you haven't. You are lost in hyperbolic and colorful descriptions.

And you can't depict different kinds of hyperbolic decriptions.

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Intrepid37
How did he do it?
Either way, that's pretty damn good.

Clearly he just rugby-tackled it out of the sky.

Intrepid37 Restricted

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why would we assume that? The autocannons in question are mechanical and thus likely to be quite a bit faster than a normal human firing a blaster rifle. This is further supported by it being able to track and fire at a Sith Lord in motion, while itself attached to a speeder moving at extremely high speeds. Scourge himself notes that the cannons being autonomous are the only reason they could have been that accurate, indicating superhuman capability.

And I am speculating?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why would I do that? Many speed feats are perfectly quantifiable or capable of being logically analysed. I only suggest we disregard subjective and hyperbolic descriptions of speed.

What descriptions of speed are not hyperbolic?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not at all. That isn't proof at all, merely subjective assumptions. And incorrect ones at that. Its an extremely common bit of hyperbole to liken something to lightning. Perfectly human beings are described as moving 'fast as lightning' all the damn time in fiction. It proves nothing.

Admittedly, I have read far from every Star Wars novelization there is, but I know only of Anakin and Plagueis who have done so. In contrast, Qui-Gon, Tiin, Anakin, Maul, Sidious, Plagueis, Kenobi, Dooku, Yoda, Fisto, Ventress, Malgus, Revan, Scourge have all moved in blurs.

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Originally posted by Nephthys
You'd think beating her would make Meetra more powerful. Plus it was on Malachor V, an extremely potent darkside nexus. Shit don't make no sense!

Here;

Although Traya was more powerful, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat. (SWTCE, Page 148)

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Intrepid37
And I am speculating?

How is it speculation to argue that a cannon designed to track and shoot at vehicles moving hundreds of kilometers per hour is fast than a normal ****ing human. The fact is that theres actual evidence and logical basis for an argument over how fast it is shows its superior to your subjective descriptions.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What descriptions of speed are not hyperbolic?

Lots. Ones that have a basis in fact. Things like Bane appearing to wield a dozen blades at once. Or Raskta Lsu seeming to be in multiple places at once. Or Grievous moving fast enough to appear to teleport. That kind of thing.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Admittedly, I have read far from every Star Wars novelization there is, but I know only of Anakin and Plagueis who have done so. In contrast, Qui-Gon, Tiin, Anakin, Maul, Sidious, Plagueis, Kenobi, Dooku, Yoda, Fisto, Ventress, Malgus, Revan, Scourge have all moved in blurs.

Um, ok? Could you elaborate on your point here?

Intrepid37 Restricted

Originally posted by Nephthys
How is it speculation to argue that a cannon designed to track and shoot at vehicles moving hundreds of kilometers per hour is fast than a normal ****ing human. The fact is that theres actual evidence and logical basis for an argument over how fast it is shows its superior to your subjective descriptions.

You weren't supposed to prove the bullets move faster than a human, rather faster than a blasterbolt.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lots. Ones that have a basis in fact. Things like Bane appearing to wield a dozen blades at once. Or Raskta Lsu seeming to be in multiple places at once. Or Grievous moving fast enough to appear to teleport. That kind of thing.

I highlighted the important words for you.

Originally posted by Nephthys
****ing human.

Hostility?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Um, ok? Could you elaborate on your point here?

Everyone has the blur statement. Very few has the statement of looking like light, suggesting it's more impressive.

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is amusing. Being ''one of the strongest'' doesn't prove much, but the Jedi and Sith slain by Scourge being ''powerful'' does? ''Republic forces'' does? Moving with ''supernatural speed'' does?

Intellectual debate is not your cup of tea, it seems. My point is that "one of the strongest" accolade does gives the impression to the reader that the affiliated individual is skilled, powerful, and vice versa, but it doesn't makes it clear that where exactly the affiliated individual stands in the big picture in the context of skill and power. Tinn vs Sidious and Tinn vs Yoda analogies are in front of you to figure this out.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
'Course they do. An example could easily be made that Karpyshan does exactly that, but you simply cannot ignore the feats of said characters. Otherwise, we must only make threads in which both combatants have been written about by the same author.

Unfortunately SWTOR: Revan is a poorly written novel in comparison to other works of Mr. Drew. I don't know why this happened; maybe it was rushed due to dead-line related issue or something?

I am not ignoring feats of any character but I prefer to stick with the holistic picture of the characters in debates. Different characters have been explored in different fashion in the mythos and direct comparisons are sometimes not possible therefore holistic picture makes things clearer. Feats are just part of the equation or component of the holistic picture of a character.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Wait, you want to compare Scourge to Plagueis on other aspects?
You're welcome, but Plagueis wins in everything.

You are mistaken. You have yet to prove that Plagueis is better then Scourge in martial aspects. In addition, Scourge's kill record is far more impressive then that of Plagueis; it would be foolish to ignore this accomplishment.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Concession accepted.

Nope! I am not willing to waste more time with you for petty arguments. You don't have a job or something?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Point is, everyone uses the force to guide their weapon. Pretty sure this is confirmed in Kenobi's fight against Grievous in RotS.

Not everyone! Only exceptionally skilled ones. Obi-Wan is very skilled duelist as well.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is true but not certain: otherwise, must we assume that every Makashi-user loses against every Djem So-user, and so on.

You have rehashed my point.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The quotes from Maul's journal show he is fodder.

That was a training session? I am talking about CW Maul.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not really.

You think that I haven't watched the duel? I am not saying that Maul is a match for Sidious. My point is that Maul is not fodder for Sidious; he certainly performed much better then Tinn, Fisto, and Kolar.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove it.

I have already provided lot of information about him. Recheck this entire thread for it.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He taught the Sith who conquered the galaxy everything he knew and more.

Genius, did Sidious and Plagueis actually destroyed a Republic army themselves?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Concession accepted.

See above.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
By ''virtually'' do you mean ''almost''?

You can say that.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
How did he do it?
Either way, that's pretty damn good.

Power in the Force. Yes.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
If it's non-canon, it does.

SWTOR lore is under process of canonization; this process takes time. Meanwhile, in-game feats of characters cannot be ignored and ruled out.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Quote/link?

Information already provided in this thread. Seriously, what is wrong with you?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
facepalm

You deserve facepalm.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I'll stick with mine.

Translation: I, Interpdi37, am too stubborn to accept official information that contradicts with my worldview.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
And you can't depict different kinds of hyperbolic decriptions.

My grasp of these things is better then yours.

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Everyone has the blur statement. Very few has the statement of looking like light, suggesting it's more impressive.

It is just a new way to describe blur. Blade movements in blur motion look like casting a light:

The author described a special effect in that novel. Nothing unique.

Intrepid37 Restricted

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Intellectual debate is not your cup of tea, it seems. My point is that "one of the strongest" accolade does gives the impression to the reader that the affiliated individual is a skilled and powerful but it doesn't makes it clear that where exactly the affiliated individual stands in the big picture. Tinn vs Sidious and Tinn vs Yoda analogies are in front of you to figure this out.

I agree, but you use the same kind of argument yourself.

For the matter, though, Tiin flung a Battledroid four kilometers: in contrast, Mace flung it three kilometers.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not ignoring feats of any character but I prefer to stick with the holistic picture of the characters in debates. Different characters have been explored in different fashion in the mythos and direct comparisons are sometimes not possible therefore holistic picture makes things clearer. Feats are just part of the equation or component of the holistic picture of a character.

I agree, but atleast Plagueis hasn't been explored in a unrealistic medium and the feats should be compared.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are mistaken. You have yet to prove that Plagueis is better then Scourge in martial aspects.

Scourge might be better at kicking and jumping around.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In addition, Scourge's kill record is far more impressive then that of Plagueis; it would be foolish to ignore this accomplishment.

As would it be foolish to ignore Plagueis showings of strength, speed, skill and power, all categories in which Plagueis vastly exceeds scourge.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Not everyone! Only exceptionally skilled ones. Obi-Wan is very skilled duelist as well.

Not more skilled than whoever we compared Scourge to (who was it?)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You just rehashing my point.

No, I'm telling you it's dumb.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You think that I haven't watched the duel? I am not saying that Maul is a match for Sidious. My point is that Maul is not fodder for Sidious; he certainly performed much better then Tinn, Fisto, and Kolar.

Onlt individuals who can compete with Sidious in atleast one aspect is not fodder. Maul can't compete in any aspect.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have already provided lot of information about him. Recheck this entire threat and then let me know your decision.

You have provided info on Nihilus?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Genius, did Sidious and Plagueis actually destroyed a Republic army themselves?

Sidious destroyed the Jedi Order.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You can say that.

Cool, for as is Maul.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
SWTOR lore is under process of canonization. The process takes time. Meanwhile, in-game feats of characters cannot be ignored and ruled out.

Game-mechanics are non-canon.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Information already provided in this thread. Seriously, what is wrong with you?

That was like three weeks ago.

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I agree, but you use the same kind of argument yourself.

I put things in their context.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
For the matter, though, Tiin flung a Battledroid four kilometers: in contrast, Mace flung it three kilometers.

This is black and white comparison; how much power Mace put in to this feat?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I agree, but atleast Plagueis hasn't been explored in a unrealistic medium and the feats should be compared.

Good.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Scourge might be better at kicking and jumping around.

He have taken on multiple impressive duelists simultaneously and won.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
As would it be foolish to ignore Plagueis showings of strength, speed, skill and power, all categories in which Plagueis vastly exceeds scourge.

Strength: Plagueis
Speed: Scourge (Prime)
Skill: Scourge (Prime)
Power: Raw power may go in favor of Plagueis; Scourge, in his prime incarnation, is (alchemy-oriented) immortal so it is not clear how he can be stopped.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not more skilled than whoever we compared Scourge to (who was it?)

???

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No, I'm telling you it's dumb.

Nope!

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Onlt individuals who can compete with Sidious in atleast one aspect is not fodder. Maul can't compete in any aspect.

You interpret fodder in different manner. Maybe I should choose a new word? I guess "mooks" will do.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You have provided info on Nihilus?

What information do you need about him?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious destroyed the Jedi Order.

Order 66; Republic forces did the job for him.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Cool, for as is Maul.

Which is another example that why words alone may not do justice. Nox will shit on Maul. Just one spirit possessed by Nox is capable of destroying (very) "powerful" opponents; Nox have several under his belt.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Game-mechanics are non-canon.

That feat is cut-scene based. Nice try.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That was like three weeks ago.

Whatever! Look at it.

Intrepid37 Restricted

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is black and white comparison; how much power Mace put in to this feat?

They did it besides eachother in the heat of combat. Mace's was more precise, so you could argue their feats were equals, but this proves that, despite his high power, Tiin wasn't a match for Sidious.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He have taken on multiple impressive duelists simultaneously and won.

Who?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Speed: Scourge

lol

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Skill: Scourge

Defeating Venamis is a better feat than killing empowered Imperial Guards.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
???

I remember it now. You said Scourge was able to guide the blade with the force, and then pointed out how Kenobi could it too. Plagueis is more skilled than Kenobi however.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nope!

Yes. Just because Makashi is the ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat doesn't mean a Makashi user is gonna win every duel.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You interpret fodder in different manner. Maybe I should choose a new word? I guess "mooks" will do.

Okay.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What information do you need about him?

You said you provided info on him and wanted me to look at it and then give my decision..?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Order 66; Republic forces did the job for him.

Republic forces which he manipulated throughout the Clone Wars.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Which is another example that why words alone do not matter much.

If so, why was your conclusion that he was ''virtually unstoppable''?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That feat is cut-scene based. Nice try.

Could you post a video?

Whatever! Look at it. [/B][/QUOTE]

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Who?

Empowered Imperial Guard duelists; one was the leader.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
lol

In his natural form; he (physically) outpaced automated canon fire; lightsaber blade strike and vice versa. In his prime form, he is even better.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Defeating Venamis is a better feat than killing empowered Imperial Guards.

And you know this how? A single Imperial Guard is capable of matching a well-trained Jedi in combat. Imperial Guard (leaders) are superb warriors specially.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Yes. Just because Makashi is the ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat doesn't mean a Makashi user is gonna win every duel.

Their are lot of variables involved in martial aspects and relative effectiveness.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You said you provided info on him and wanted me to look at it and then give my decision..?

Nihilus destroyed an entire planet with his powers. Many Jedi died during this attack.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Republic forces which he manipulated throughout the Clone Wars.

Marr and Decimus have destroyed Republic armies with their personal skills and powers.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
If so, why was your conclusion that he was ''virtually unstoppable''?

My poor choice of words; hang me.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Could you post a video?

I don't have access to it. I haven't played Imperial storyline yet. Though I once saw a footage in which Cipher 9 meets Jadus after this feat is performed and appears to be stunned by such demonstration of power. Jadus explains to him that why his ship didn't disintegrate after rocked by powerful explosions; he prevented it from disintegration through his power in the Force.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Whatever! Look at it.

Why must I have to do all the hard work, you lazy @ss? Do it yourself.

Intrepid37 Restricted

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Empowered Imperial Guard duelists; one was the leader.

The Imperial Guard argument is covered below.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In his natural form; he (physically) outpaced automated canon fire; lightsaber blade strike and vice versa. In his prime form, he is even better.

Plagueis outpaced a droid that is able to react instantaneous by a huge margin.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And you know this how? A single Imperial Guard is capable of matching a well-trained Jedi in combat. Imperial Guard (leaders) are superb warriors specially.

Venamis was trained to kill Plagueis, trained in the exact same forms so he could count all Plagueis' moves, yet Plagueis defeated him. That's extremely impressive.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Marr and Decimus have destroyed Republic armies with their personal skills and powers.

That's not the point.

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Plagueis outpaced a droid that is able to react instantaneous by a huge margin.

I understand but the automated canon could have comparable or better tracking system. On top of this, it was mounted on a modified speeder which itself was in motion. It is explicitly stated in the novel that it is impossible to evade its firepower forever.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Venamis was trained to kill Plagueis, trained in the exact same forms so he could count all Plagueis' moves, yet Plagueis defeated him. That's extremely impressive.

Imperial Guard individuals are trained to kill Jedi.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That's not the point.

My point is about combat prowess.

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Speed: Scourge (Prime)

❌

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Originally posted by Nephthys
❌

I am talking about Emperor's Wrath. He is considerably superior to his natural incarnation. So yes.

Scourge, natural incarnation, was able to physically evade firepower of automated canon mounted on a speeder which itself was in motion. He once moved faster then a lightsaber dueling strike aimed for him in a duel. His combat prowess was enhanced by Sith Emperor later on.