Lord Vitiate runs the gauntlet.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Powerful enough to be regarded as a threat to the interests of the Empire. The information at least confirms that these victims weren't mooks but rather powerful individuals.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He dodged automated firepower unleashed by a speeder during its flight with his physical abilities and brought it down with a single attack in response.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Scourge could also effortlessly switch between lightsaber dueling forms

and even physically outpace a lightsaber swing itself:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
His opponent tried to turn and pivot to keep Scourge in front of him, but the furious burst of action was too fast for his lightsaber to track. He was late bringing his blade up to protect his head, once again exposing himself to a lethal strike.[/I] (SWTOR: Revan)

Scourge's martial talents were amazing:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
SCOURGE WAS AN EXPERT SWORDSMAN; at the Academy even the instructors had been reluctant to face him in the training ring. When the dark side flowed through him, his blade was more than a weapon. It became an extension of his will.

The blue highlighted part is very important; on the basis of this talent, Bane was able to hang with with relatively much superior duelist, Kas'im, in a duel.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Thanks for sharing. I didn't notice any signs of Jedi getting tired in this clash.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This suggests that he laughs when he knows that he has advantage. My extrapolation from this is that Opress wasn't capable of pushing Sidious to his limits with his martial skills so Sidious laughing at him in response shouldn't come as a surprise. In contrast Yoda managed to push Sidious to his limits with his martial skills and Sidious couldn't afford to laugh during such moments. However, Sidious's laughing behavior doesn't suggests that he would be toying with his opponents during such moments. He wasn't toying with Yoda when he was laughing at him; he was rather throwing senate pods towards Yoda during this moment.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Accolades such as these offer an ambiguous picture.

Usma was not fodder for Sith Lord Praven who in turn was not fodder for HoT who in turn is not fodder for nobody in the entire Galactic history. Get the picture now?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I will consult the author in this regard and let you know.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku managed to duel Yoda longer then that. Does this means that he was Yoda's equal? Actions speak for themselves.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As per novel. In the movie, the shatterpoint is an opening in Sidious's defenses which Mace exploited. This contradiction is the issue in this case but I would stick with G-Canon depiction of this duel.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
His showings in the anime type CW source which you love to cite.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nowhere it is implied that he needs to prepare himself beforehand to break an opponent.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Light of blade, right? Your description makes no sense at all.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No one has been able to blitz Vitiate. Individuals better then Anakin couldn't either. Your assumption is baseless and pathetic. Drop it already. Anakin is outgunned badly.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Alright, but for all we know, they could've been Quinlan Vos-level.

Also, it is asinine to assume that all of the victims of Emperor's Wrath would be Vos's level.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Cite the source.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He outpaced Xedrix. How fast is Xedrix?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Bane's duel with Kas'im is a bad example. He was winning until Kas'im switched styles.

Kas'im lunged in again, and the room was filled with the hiss and hum of lightsabers striking each other half a dozen times in the space of two heartbeats. Bane would have been carved to ribbons had he tried to react to each move individually. Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand. He gave himself over to the dark side completely, without reservation. His weapon became an extension of the Force, and he responded to the Twilek's unstoppable attack with an impenetrable defense. (Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)

Bane demonstrated this talent to survive and take charge:

When the dark side flowed through him, his blade was more than a weapon. It became an extension of his will. (SWTOR: Revan)

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Common sense.

If the Jedi were facing a challenging force then your assumption would have some merit but it doesn't fits well in this case.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious definitely ''toyed'' with Yoda when he threw Senate Pods at him.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is a bad A>B>C argument. Maul isn't fodder for Dooku who isn't fodder for Sidious, but Maul is clearly fodder for Sidious...

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Until you've proven otherwise, it stands.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
In contrast, Dooku was forced on the defensive, indicating inferiority.

Prove it.

There's no contradiction..?

😬

Anakin was the shatterpoint in the novel. In contrast, an opening in Sidious's defenses was the shatterpoint in the movie. Contradiction is clearly evident.

In addition, Dooku cannot outduel Sidious in any setting and is rather outclassed by the latter. By virtue of this evidence, Mace is superior to Dooku. The duel which you cited proves nothing since it didn't last long and Dooku chose to flee; what it indicates is that Dooku is not fodder for Mace. The quote which you cited represents an assumption; nothing concrete. I rest my case.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Revan and Scourge comes to mind.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Light of the blade, yes.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove HoT is faster than Anakin.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vos doesn't strikes me as "powerful" material.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
SWTOR: Revan

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
They were Xedrix's apprentices. No idea how fast they were but outpacing a "lightsaber strike itself" is pretty damn amazing feat.

How so?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Kas'im lunged in again, and the room was filled with the hiss and hum of lightsabers striking each other half a dozen times in the space of two heartbeats. Bane would have been carved to ribbons had he tried to react to each move individually. Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand. He gave himself over to the dark side completely, without reservation. His weapon became an extension of the Force, and he responded to the Twilek's unstoppable attack with an impenetrable defense. (Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)

For that matter, according to a sourcebook, Maul served Sidious as an extension of Sidious' will...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Jedi can/do use the Force to augment their physical abilities. Those opponents didn't tire out Obi-Wan and Fisto or the fight with them didn't last long enough to tire them out otherwise the author would have given some hint.

If the Jedi were facing a challenging force then your assumption would have some merit but it doesn't fits well in this case.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I disagree! Sidious was trying to kill Yoda. Once again! His laughing behavior doesn't suggests that he is toying with his opponent(s) during such moments.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Maul wasn't fodder for Sidious; he didn't get blitzed by Sidious.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Plagueis is outclassed by several other Sith Lords, feats wise.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anakin was the shatterpoint in the novel. In contrast, an opening in Sidious's defenses was the shatterpoint in the movie. Contradiction is clearly evident.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate broke Revan with a fraction of his power. In addition, he didn't had to prepare himself to subdue Scourge mentally. You have no argument.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And it cannot cover his entire body.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
HoT is not yet featured in novels so I cannot offer any statement. However, HoT have actually blitzed skilled opponents. In comparison, Anakin haven't. By virtue of this evidence, HoT is
faster then Anakin. I rest my case.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Neither does whoever Scourge slew for me.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Quote?

He was still pondering this new information when he heard a speeder approaching through the storm. The sound was innocuous, but it instantly put his senses on high alert. His heart began beating rapidly and his breathing quickened. A rush of adrenaline caused his cheek tendrils to twitch and his muscles to tense.

He drew his lightsaber and glanced up at the sky. At his feet, Sechel cried out and covered his face, assuming the lightsaber was meant for him. Scourge ignored him.

In the darkness of the storm, he could just make out the speeder's silhouette heading straight for them. He reached out with the Force, probing the vehicle and its passengers. He felt a bolt of anger rip through him as his suspicions were confirmed: Whoever was in the speeder was coming to kill him.

All of this, from Scourge's first awareness of the speeder to confirmation of its hostile intent, took less than two seconds. Time enough for the speeder to close the distance and come bearing down on him. Scourge leapt to the side as a barrage of blasterfire was unleashed from the vehicle. He hit the ground in a roll that brought him to his feet just in time to spring clear of a second series of bolts. Moving with the blinding speed of the Force, he raced across the courtyard, bolts ricocheting off the ground just behind him every step of the way. He dived behind the cover of the Emperor's statue, his mind assessing the situation. The speeder had to be equipped with an autotargeting blaster cannon; there was no other way the shots could have tracked him so closely on his desperate run for cover. Even a Sith Lord couldn't evade that kind of firepower forever. He had to disable the vehicle.

The speeder was heading away from him, circling around for another strafing run. Before it could complete its turn, Scourge stepped out from behind the statue and launched his lightsaber across the courtyard. The crimson blade went spiraling through the night, tracing a wide, looping arc. It clipped the back end of the speeder, sending up a shower of spark and flame, and continued on its trajectory to return to Scourge's outstretched hand.

Source: SWTOR: Revan

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's amazing if the ones wielding the saber were fast.

How so?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Training session.

That is actual fight between Bane and Kas'im in the Rakatan Temple on Lehon. You are so much clueless.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
For that matter, according to a sourcebook, Maul served Sidious as an extension of Sidious' will...

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Oh come on. It was clearly quite circumstancial that she had time to observe whatever forms Kit and Kenobi were using.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It does. Compare his fight with the brothers to the one with Yoda and the one with the Council.

By fodder, I personally assume an individual not capable of dueling someone. For example: Fisto, Tinn and Kolar were fodder for Sidious.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He wasn't fodder? He and his brother got completely ragdolled.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Such as?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
There's no contradiction. Mace angled the battle out to the window because he knew that Sidious would fall there, due to shatterpoint.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I hold Drew's opinion in higher regard than yours.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
According to whom?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
😂

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Canonical quote confirms that many among his victims were "powerful."

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Here;

He was still pondering this new information when he heard a speeder approaching through the storm. The sound was innocuous, but it instantly put his senses on high alert. His heart began beating rapidly and his breathing quickened. A rush of adrenaline caused his cheek tendrils to twitch and his muscles to tense.

He drew his lightsaber and glanced up at the sky. At his feet, Sechel cried out and covered his face, assuming the lightsaber was meant for him. Scourge ignored him.

In the darkness of the storm, he could just make out the speeder's silhouette heading straight for them. He reached out with the Force, probing the vehicle and its passengers. He felt a bolt of anger rip through him as his suspicions were confirmed: Whoever was in the speeder was coming to kill him.

All of this, from Scourge's first awareness of the speeder to confirmation of its hostile intent, took less than two seconds. Time enough for the speeder to close the distance and come bearing down on him. Scourge leapt to the side as a barrage of blasterfire was unleashed from the vehicle. He hit the ground in a roll that brought him to his feet just in time to spring clear of a second series of bolts. Moving with the blinding speed of the Force, he raced across the courtyard, bolts ricocheting off the ground just behind him every step of the way. He dived behind the cover of the Emperor's statue, his mind assessing the situation. The speeder had to be equipped with an autotargeting blaster cannon; there was no other way the shots could have tracked him so closely on his desperate run for cover. Even a Sith Lord couldn't evade that kind of firepower forever. He had to disable the vehicle.

The speeder was heading away from him, circling around for another strafing run. Before it could complete its turn, Scourge stepped out from behind the statue and launched his lightsaber across the courtyard. The crimson blade went spiraling through the night, tracing a wide, looping arc. It clipped the back end of the speeder, sending up a shower of spark and flame, and continued on its trajectory to return to Scourge's outstretched hand.

Source: SWTOR: Revan

See where this is going?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Ever seen the speed with which a trained Sith can swing a lightsaber in visual? Physically outmaneuvering that kind of blow is damn impressive.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What?

That is actual fight between Bane and Kas'im in the Rakatan Temple on Lehon. You are so much clueless.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Fail.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If Fisto was so damn good as the hype he received, he should still have found a way to undermine or overcome Ventress but he failed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
To be honest, Fisto doesn't impresses me.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Of-course, Maul is not on the level of Mace and Yoda. However, he didn't go down so easily like his brother; he put up some fight.

By fodder, I personally assume an individual not capable of dueling someone. For example: Fisto, Tinn and Kolar were fodder for Sidious.

A flick of his robe, and he is gone.

Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

He did not take it well. He raised a hand, and the dark side grabbed me by the throat and lifted me high. My breath was squeezed out of me slowly. Too slowly. I had time to feel every stretched-out moment of panic as I struggled to force even the tiniest trickle of air into my lungs.

When I was close to passing out, I was dropped to the floor in a heap. My Master walked away. He did not address me or call for me for some time. The removal of his favor was worse than the punishment.

-Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

[i]Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
See above.

- Sidious
- Vitiate
- Nihilus
- Traya
- Decimus
- Nox
- Marr
- Hord
- Jadus

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Contradiction is that novel suggests that Anakin was watching the duel and Mace used him as a shatterpoint source.

Those are canonical revelations; not my opinion. Fail. [/B][/QUOTE]
None of these ''revelations'' prove Vitiate can use his mind-domination abilities without the aid of preparation.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Is his lightsaber as long as he is himself?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Concession accepted.

The HoT blitzed two Sith Assassin's on Corellia, fully leaping over them and cutting them down before they really had time to react (and they knew he was there). These weren't fodder Sith either, they'd just defeated Jedi Master Kiwiks.

The HoT then repeats this later on on the same planet, cutting down two Sith Warriors with a single slash each. Both had their lightsabers drawn, in front of them and were moving to attack the HoT. He appears to have simply moved faster then they could defend against.

YouTube video

9.00 and 18.45

Thanks for that. Still don't see him close to Anakin:

He practically encases himself in green light:

"I'm a slow learner," Anakin replied coolly, and he came on then, so suddenly, so powerfully, his green blade whirling with such speed that he seemed almost encased in green light.

He moves his blade in a blur:

Anakin was off and running, off and leaping, his blade spinning left and right in a blur, every stab taking a Tusken down, writhing to the ground, every slash putting a piece of a Tusken on the ground.

He moves in a blur:

Right behind her came Anakin, his lightsaber a blur of motion, turning laser shots back at the battle droids. He leapt into the cart and Padme kicked the orray away.

Anakin's blade is described as blue lightning:

-And in the space where Kenobi's chest had been was now only the blue lightning of Skywalker's blade driving straight for Dooku's heart.

The quote below implies Anakin was faster than Dooku (and he leaves a haze of afterimages at the same time):

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze...

Dooku has some nice speed feats himself.

He's able to react before the pieces of the droids hit the floor:

Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half...

He moves impossibly fast:

But Dooku retracted impossibly fast, and Anakin's down-cutting green blade hit nothing but air.

-Attack of the Clones

He is faster than Kenobi:

The two droids fired at Obi-Wan, but he batted their fired energy bolts back at them and cut them down as he moved fast for Dooku. Unfortunately, Dooku moved faster, extending his left hand toward Obi-Wan as he used the Force to lift the Jedi off his feet while at the same time constricting his throat.

Kenobi is quite fast himself. He moves as a torpedo:

...and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker...

Kenobi moves in a blur:

And in that instant, Obi-Wan disappeared in a blur, headed for Cohls pod.

He moves in a blur again:

In a blur of motion, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan hurried to Tiin's aid, spinning and leaping in the face of the onslaught.

He moves his blade so fast it creates a barrier/shield:

Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Tiin, and Ki-Adi-Mundi surged from the pyramid entrance, engaging the terrorists that had driven them back. A quarter of the way across the immense plaza, the Jedi spread out in a wedge formation, their constantly moving blades fending off blaster bolts loosed from ahead and to either side. Behind the energy barrier fashioned by the lightsabers, Yaddle, Depa, Vergere, and two of the judicials raced out to divert fire from the rear.

He moves in a blur again:

In a blur of motion, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan bolted to the end of the flat roof, wound between several domes, and covered a length of sheer ledge without a moment's hesitation.

Anakin is the fastest Jedi of his generation, perhaps any:

This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

This alone puts him above all Jedi bar Yoda in terms of speed.

He's faster than Mace who is so fast that he appeared to wield dozens of lightsabers:

Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

Mace is faster than Kar Vastor (who is blindingly fast) and moves invisibly fast:

But where Vastor's speed was blinding, Mace's was invisible. Not one of those slaps connected.

Despite Vastor being blindingly fast, Mace hits him six times before he can blink/focus his eyes:

Before Vastor could even focus his eyes, Mace had hit him six times: two thundering hooks to his short ribs, a knee slamming hard into the same thigh he'd hit before, an elbow snapping up to the point of his chin, and two devastating palm strikes to either hinge of his jaw.

An ordinary man would have been unconscious. Vastor seemed to be getting stronger.

Vastor fired another of those blinding slaps. This time, instead of ducking, Mace countered with a whirring hook that met the lor peleKs swinging arm directly on the nerve that ran up the inside of the biceps. Vastor threw the other even harder-which only made the inside of that arm connect that much harder with Mace's coun-terhook.

Vastor's mighty arms spasmed and dropped limply to his sides. "This is called Vaapad, Kar." A fierce light burned in Mace's eyes. "How many arms do you see?"

Then he hit Vastor twice in the nose before the lor pelek could even blink.

Anakin is also faster than Kit Fisto. Fisto has moved his body in three directions at once:

From the corner of his eye he saw that Kit had made his way almost to Ventress, and what he saw as the Nautolan increased his efforts almost broke Obi-Wan's concentration. His companion was a living, martial hurricane, his body moving in two and three
directions at once, joints flexing, unlimited by human vertebral restraints.

Fisto moves in a blur of light/impossibly fast:

"Your pleasure," Kit hissed, and went at her. He was like fire, Ventress like smoke. The dance had substance but not form, a blur of light that seemed impossibly fast, unbelievably deadly. The two leapt and swerved, collided and bounced away. Single against double light-blades. Hands, knees, feet, all in a mind-numbing blur.

The speed of Fisto's blade is described as a blazing cyclone of light:

To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Let's be honest: being ''powerful'' isn't as good as being one of the Order's finest swordsmen.

Kolar, Tinn, and Fisto didn't lack in martial aspects of combat; they lacked in command of the Force aspect and this is why they got their @sses handed to them by Sidious in such a brilliant manner. In contrast to the 3 aforementioned Jedi, Mace was much more well-versed in the Jedi arts and his performance proved this.

A Jedi becomes powerful when he accomplishes decent command of the Force or high level Force-Mastery.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Alright, so he moved with blinding speed. As did Kar Vastor, and Mace were able to hit him six times before he could focus his eyes: in contrast, Plagueis has better speed feats than Mace.

See where this is going?

Fact is that Scourge moved so fast that the auto-blaster, regardless of being programmed to be a highly accurate and deadly weapon, didn't manage to hit him. So Scourge would have been like a blur to this weapon's tracking system. Now difference is that we do not have much information about this weapon's tracking system but it is supposed to be great because it was mentioned in the novel that a Sith Lord would not have been able to dodge its firepower forever.

In addition, Scourge's skills can be gauged through lot of other information. I am sure that Kar Vastor doesn't matches his resume. Therefore, your point is moot.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Yeah, but if the ones wielding the sabers were slow, it's not really that good.

The acolytes shown in the Hope Cinematic Video were demonstrating impressive bladework as an example; they were twirling the lightsaber very fast.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Why? Ventress is very skilled too. Besides, without the aid of any circumstances, Fisto and Ventress are definitely comparable.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I could post a good showing of his from Labyrinth of Evil, if you want to.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me.

Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead.

I do not flinch.

At last, Lord Sidious deactivates my weapon. He tosses it toward me. The sweat on my palm almost causes me to drop it.

"Do not let me see you relax your guard again, " my Master says. His eyes burn. "You are valuable, yes. But you are not indispensable, Lord Maul. I can do without you."

A flick of his robe, and he is gone.The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me.

Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead.

I do not flinch.

At last, Lord Sidious deactivates my weapon. He tosses it toward me. The sweat on my palm almost causes me to drop it.

"Do not let me see you relax your guard again, " my Master says. His eyes burn. "You are valuable, yes. But you are not indispensable, Lord Maul. I can do without you."

A flick of his robe, and he is gone.

Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

He did not take it well. He raised a hand, and the dark side grabbed me by the throat and lifted me high. My breath was squeezed out of me slowly. Too slowly. I had time to feel every stretched-out moment of panic as I struggled to force even the tiniest trickle of air into my lungs.

When I was close to passing out, I was dropped to the floor in a heap. My Master walked away. He did not address me or call for me for some time. The removal of his favor was worse than the punishment.

-Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

I am talking about actual fight between brothers: Maul and Opress against Sidious in which both parties attempted to kill each other.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious, yes. Combat-wise, Plagueis outstrips everyone else.

- Vitiate have taken on multiple exceptionally powerful opponents simultaneously and defeated them. He have done so several times. His defeat in single combat is circumstantial.

- Nihilus eliminated many powerful Sith Lords on Katarr with his incredible powers. His defeat in single combat is circumstantial.

- Traya easily destroyed 3 famous Jedi Masters with her dark side powers on Dantooine. She has been canonically confirmed to be more powerful then Meetra Surik; it is not clear if her defeat in single combat is circumstantial or not.

- Decimus have played a vital role in destruction of a Republic army.

- Marr single-handedly destroyed a Republic army or possibly armies.

- Nox subdued Thanaton in single combat; a Sith Lord touted to be supremely strong in the dark side of the Force. Nox is like a supernatural being with extraordinary talents; he is virtually unstoppable.

- Hord is arguably the greatest and most famous lightsaber duelist among the Sith in the Star Wars and his power in the Force is such that his greatest known feat outstrips the greatest showing of Yoda with the Force.

- Jadus; while not much is known about his combat prowess but Imperial Intelligence rates him second to none but Sith Emperor in power and depending upon the storyline, he managed to prevent disintegration of his enormous Imperial Cruiser out in the space with his power in the Force when attempts were made to destroy it.

While Plagueis's showings against Maladians are impressive; he doesn't looks big in the big picture.

Your attempts to hype PT era characters are lame. Give up for your own good.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
There's no contradiction... as soon as Anakin lands outside the office, Mace feels a shatterpoint which led to a win.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
None of these ''revelations'' prove Vitiate can use his mind-domination abilities without the aid of preparation.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove the instance in which HoT blitzed his enemy.

Thank you, Neph.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Thanks for that. Still don't see him close to Anakin:

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Thanks for that. Still don't see him close to Anakin:

He practically encases himself in green light:

"I'm a slow learner," Anakin replied coolly, and he came on then, so suddenly, so powerfully, his green blade whirling with such speed that he seemed almost encased in green light.

He moves his blade in a blur:

Anakin was off and running, off and leaping, his blade spinning left and right in a blur, every stab taking a Tusken down, writhing to the ground, every slash putting a piece of a Tusken on the ground.

He moves in a blur:

Right behind her came Anakin, his lightsaber a blur of motion, turning laser shots back at the battle droids. He leapt into the cart and Padme kicked the orray away.

Anakin's blade is described as blue lightning:

-And in the space where Kenobi's chest had been was now only the blue lightning of Skywalker's blade driving straight for Dooku's heart.

The quote below implies Anakin was faster than Dooku (and he leaves a haze of afterimages at the same time):

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze...

Dooku has some nice speed feats himself.

He's able to react before the pieces of the droids hit the floor:

Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half...

He moves impossibly fast:

But Dooku retracted impossibly fast, and Anakin's down-cutting green blade hit nothing but air.

-Attack of the Clones

He is faster than Kenobi:

The two droids fired at Obi-Wan, but he batted their fired energy bolts back at them and cut them down as he moved fast for Dooku. Unfortunately, Dooku moved faster, extending his left hand toward Obi-Wan as he used the Force to lift the Jedi off his feet while at the same time constricting his throat.

Kenobi is quite fast himself. He moves as a torpedo:

...and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker...

Kenobi moves in a blur:

And in that instant, Obi-Wan disappeared in a blur, headed for Cohls pod.

He moves in a blur again:

In a blur of motion, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan hurried to Tiin's aid, spinning and leaping in the face of the onslaught.

He moves his blade so fast it creates a barrier/shield:

Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Tiin, and Ki-Adi-Mundi surged from the pyramid entrance, engaging the terrorists that had driven them back. A quarter of the way across the immense plaza, the Jedi spread out in a wedge formation, their constantly moving blades fending off blaster bolts loosed from ahead and to either side. Behind the energy barrier fashioned by the lightsabers, Yaddle, Depa, Vergere, and two of the judicials raced out to divert fire from the rear.

He moves in a blur again:

In a blur of motion, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan bolted to the end of the flat roof, wound between several domes, and covered a length of sheer ledge without a moment's hesitation.

Anakin is the fastest Jedi of his generation, perhaps any:

This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

This alone puts him above all Jedi bar Yoda in terms of speed.

He's faster than Mace who is so fast that he appeared to wield dozens of lightsabers:

Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

Mace is faster than Kar Vastor (who is blindingly fast) and moves invisibly fast:

But where Vastor's speed was blinding, Mace's was invisible. Not one of those slaps connected.

Despite Vastor being blindingly fast, Mace hits him six times before he can blink/focus his eyes:

Before Vastor could even focus his eyes, Mace had hit him six times: two thundering hooks to his short ribs, a knee slamming hard into the same thigh he'd hit before, an elbow snapping up to the point of his chin, and two devastating palm strikes to either hinge of his jaw.

An ordinary man would have been unconscious. Vastor seemed to be getting stronger.

Vastor fired another of those blinding slaps. This time, instead of ducking, Mace countered with a whirring hook that met the lor peleKs swinging arm directly on the nerve that ran up the inside of the biceps. Vastor threw the other even harder-which only made the inside of that arm connect that much harder with Mace's coun-terhook.

Vastor's mighty arms spasmed and dropped limply to his sides. "This is called Vaapad, Kar." A fierce light burned in Mace's eyes. "How many arms do you see?"

Then he hit Vastor twice in the nose before the lor pelek could even blink.

Anakin is also faster than Kit Fisto. Fisto has moved his body in three directions at once:

From the corner of his eye he saw that Kit had made his way almost to Ventress, and what he saw as the Nautolan increased his efforts almost broke Obi-Wan's concentration. His companion was a living, martial hurricane, his body moving in two and three
directions at once, joints flexing, unlimited by human vertebral restraints.

Fisto moves in a blur of light/impossibly fast:

"Your pleasure," Kit hissed, and went at her. He was like fire, Ventress like smoke. The dance had substance but not form, a blur of light that seemed impossibly fast, unbelievably deadly. The two leapt and swerved, collided and bounced away. Single against double light-blades. Hands, knees, feet, all in a mind-numbing blur.

The speed of Fisto's blade is described as a blazing cyclone of light:

To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light.

Most of those are simply colorful descriptions saying 'he's fast'. How fast is incredibly unclear and undefinable. You can't really argue that someone is faster than someone else based upon a hyperbolic description thats more or less useless in an analytical debate. Being a 'blur' isn't going to impress anyone here. Its an unknown level of speed thats too ambiguous to compare and contrast in relation to other characters.

I'd take a quantifiable example of the Hero of Tython blitzing two fully trained Sith over an unquantifiable example of Anakin's speed being decribed in colorful language.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
She has been canonically confirmed to be more powerful then Meetra Surik

Huh, really?

Well said, Neph.

Funny thing is that Scourge was also capable of physically moving and swinging his blade in blur form or supernatural speeds. He is far better as Emperor's Wrath (moved beyond blur motion descriptions stage), thanks to Sith Emperor empowering him in every possible way and HoT was the only guy in centuries that was able to subdue him in single combat.

And yet member Intrepid is unable to grasp the ground realities behind HoT's capabilities. Such a shame.

Scourge outrunning an autotargetting blaster cannon is indeed a good feat of speed and proves that he's a fairly fast Sith. And he clearly improves over his 300 years career.

I will say though that I disagree with you about Plageuis. The man was insanely powerful and in my opinion could beat about half your list. Most of them are relatively unknown in terms of ability. Decimus for instance.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I will say though that I disagree with you about Plageuis. The man was insanely powerful and in my opinion could beat about half your list. Most of them are relatively unknown in terms of ability. Decimus for instance.

My point of contention is that he can be beaten and I have mentioned some Sith Lords who can beat him. Of-course, this doesn't means that Plagueis will not be able to beat at-least some of the listed Sith Lords but he can loose to all of them as well. I am just being realistic.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Huh, really?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Big misconception! An individual should possess decent command in the Force because his/her martial skills alone are not going to be enough sometimes. Decent Force-Mastery complements martial skills and abilities of a Force-user. Look no further then Bane versus Kas'im event to understand this.

Kolar, Tinn, and Fisto didn't lack in martial aspects of combat; they lacked in command of the Force aspect and this is why they got their @sses handed to them by Sidious in such a brilliant manner.

A Jedi becomes powerful when he accomplishes decent command of the Force or high level Force-Mastery.
I was searching around and couldn't find anything for Kolar/Fisto, but I found this for Tiin:

Saesee's flying practise also helped to hone his Force abilities. By the time he arrived at the Jedi Temple, he was already adept at channeling his Force connection. As he progressed in the Order, he was acknowledged as having one of the strongest Force abilities of all the Jedi.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Fact is that Scourge moved so fast that the auto-blaster, regardless of being programmed to be a highly accurate and deadly weapon, didn't manage to hit him. So Scourge would have been like a blur to this weapon's tracking system. Now difference is that we do not have much information about this weapon's tracking system but it is supposed to be great because it was mentioned in the novel that a Sith Lord would not have been able to dodge its firepower forever.

1. Cinching the robe around his waist, he began to move, slowly at first, then gathering speed, until to any being watching he would have appeared a dazzling blur; an errant dust devil racing across the treeless terrain.

As for 11-4D:

Only 11-4D's ability to calculate trajectories and react instantaneously to danger kept it from being on the receiving end of any of the numerous ricochets.

Yet it had problems picking up Plagueis:

The Woebegone had just reverted to realspace when 11-4D's audio sensors registered unusual sounds from aft: an activation click, a prolonged hiss of energy, a dopplering slash, a stuttering exhalation of breath. The sounds were followed by a sudden outpouring of heat from the corridor that accessed the cargo bays and what might have been interpreted as a gust of wind. Only by adjusting the input rate of its photoreceptors was the droid able to identify the blur that raced into the cabin space as a male Muun dressed in a hooded robe, trousers, and softboots that reached his shins.

The Muun's reaction to the barrage of bolts that converged on him required almost more processing power than the droid had at its disposal. By employing a combination of body movements, lightsaber, and naked right hand, the agile sentient evaded, deflected, or returned every shot that targeted him.

2. The contest took them backward and forward through the trees, across narrow streams, and up onto piles of rocks that were the ruins of an ancient sentry post. Plagueis took a moment to wonder if anyone at the fort was observing the results of the contest, which, from afar, must have looked like lightning flashing through the forest's understory.

3. Plagueis fixed the lightsaber hilt to his hip and set out at a fast clip, all but outracing the rain. If the scanners and motion detectors were as precise as they appeared to be, they would find him, though his speed might cause whoever was monitoring the security devices to mistake him for one of the wild, bushy-tailed quadrupeds that inhabited the landscape.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Why would a trained Sith be slow at swinging the blade?

The acolytes shown in the Hope Cinematic Video were demonstrating impressive bladework as an example; they were twirling the lightsaber very fast.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What does Maul serving Sidious's will have to do with my point regarding one being able to transform his weapon in to an extension of his will during combat?

''Extension of his will'' just mean that the blade was guided by the force.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Maybe! However, Fisto is a Master of Form I which makes him very effective against multiple foes but not necessarily against a single skilled foe.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Once again! Am I missing something that you are offering me this information?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am talking about actual fight between brothers: Maul and Opress against Sidious in which both parties attempted to kill each other.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
- Vitiate have taken on multiple exceptionally powerful opponents simultaneously and defeated them. He have done so several times. His defeat in single combat is circumstantial.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
- Nihilus eliminated many powerful Sith Lords on Katarr with his incredible powers. His defeat in single combat is circumstantial.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
- Traya

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
- Decimus have played a vital role in destruction of a Republic army.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
- Marr single-handedly destroyed a Republic army or possibly armies.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
-Nox is virtually unstoppable.

-

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
and his power in the Force is such that his greatest known feat outstrips the greatest showing of Yoda with the Force.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
- Jadus; while not much is known about his combat prowess but Imperial Intelligence rates him second to none but the Emperor in power and depending upon the storyline, he managed to prevent disintegration of his enormous Imperial Cruiser out in the space with his power in the Force when attempts were made to destroy it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
While Plagueis's showings against Maladians are impressive; he doesn't looks big in the big picture.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anakin wasn't watching them dueling in the movie or was he? His timing of approach had nothing to do with Mace managing to disarm Sidious with his shatterpoint abilities. It was a coincidence. The novelization presented somewhat different account from the movie.

''It was a coincidence''? You're grasping at straws.

Feeling for its shatterpoint.

He found a knot of fault lines in the shadow's future; he chose the largest fracture and followed it back to the here and the now... And it led him, astonishingly, to a man standing frozen in the slashed-open doorway. Mace had no need to look; the presence in the Force was familiar, and was as uplifting as sunlight breaking through a thunderhead.

The chosen one was here.

Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish.

His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge.

Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop.

Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete.

Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is your assumption because this haven't been explicitly stated in any source barring Revan's POV which gives this impression. Sorry.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So how can his whole body be covered in its light when he swirled it? You are focusing too much on hyperbolic semantics; the visual example that I offered is the only valid depiction of Anakin's feat as per the available description.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Most of those are simply colorful descriptions saying 'he's fast'. How fast is incredibly unclear and undefinable.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You can't really argue that someone is faster than someone else based upon a hyperbolic description thats more or less useless in an analytical debate.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Being a 'blur' isn't going to impress anyone here. Its an unknown level of speed thats too ambiguous to compare and contrast in relation to other characters.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd take a quantifiable example of the Hero of Tython blitzing two fully trained Sith over an unquantifiable example of Anakin's speed being decribed in colorful language.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
When comparing different ''colorful descriptions'' of speed, it shouldn't be too hard for one to judge which one is better.

Unfortunately for you it is. But its more that its uncomparable to other speed feats. Is being 'impossibly fast' as fast as outrunning auto cannons? Who the **** knows, its obviously hyperbolic and ambiguous. Completely unusable in a debate.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I can.

No, you can say it. Thats not the same thing as arguing.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Did you actually read it? Anakin had far better showings than moving in a blur.

Prove it.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
😐

👆

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I was searching around and couldn't find anything for Kolar/Fisto, but I found this for Tiin:

Saesee's flying practise also helped to hone his Force abilities. By the time he arrived at the Jedi Temple, he was already adept at channeling his Force connection. As he progressed in the Order, he was acknowledged as having one of the strongest Force abilities of all the Jedi.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's definitely good, but Plagueis outstrips him by a big degree:

1. Cinching the robe around his waist, he began to move, slowly at first, then gathering speed, until to any being watching he would have appeared a dazzling blur; an errant dust devil racing across the treeless terrain.

As for 11-4D:

Only 11-4D's ability to calculate trajectories and react instantaneously to danger kept it from being on the receiving end of any of the numerous ricochets.

Yet it had problems picking up Plagueis:

The Woebegone had just reverted to realspace when 11-4D's audio sensors registered unusual sounds from aft: an activation click, a prolonged hiss of energy, a dopplering slash, a stuttering exhalation of breath. The sounds were followed by a sudden outpouring of heat from the corridor that accessed the cargo bays and what might have been interpreted as a gust of wind. Only by adjusting the input rate of its photoreceptors was the droid able to identify the blur that raced into the cabin space as a male Muun dressed in a hooded robe, trousers, and softboots that reached his shins.

The Muun's reaction to the barrage of bolts that converged on him required almost more processing power than the droid had at its disposal. By employing a combination of body movements, lightsaber, and naked right hand, the agile sentient evaded, deflected, or returned every shot that targeted him.

2. The contest took them backward and forward through the trees, across narrow streams, and up onto piles of rocks that were the ruins of an ancient sentry post. Plagueis took a moment to wonder if anyone at the fort was observing the results of the contest, which, from afar, must have looked like lightning flashing through the forest's understory.

3. Plagueis fixed the lightsaber hilt to his hip and set out at a fast clip, all but outracing the rain. If the scanners and motion detectors were as precise as they appeared to be, they would find him, though his speed might cause whoever was monitoring the security devices to mistake him for one of the wild, bushy-tailed quadrupeds that inhabited the landscape.

Once again you cannot make a point by simply relying upon "speed feats" to establish supposed superiority of a Force-user in a versus debate. Your focus should be on the holistic picture of characters in question. I am no longer going to play this game with you anymore.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Slow in comparison to extremely fast individuals, obviously.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
''Extension of his will'' just mean that the blade was guided by the force.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Nah. Don't lowball Fisto here. He's obviously a very good swordsman.

Fisto being a master of Form I will not necessarily make him adequate enough to compete with opponents who have mastered other form(s) of lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Maul is clearly fodder for Sidious.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious actually says ''I'm not going to kill you'' in the end of the fight.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Neither of his opponents are anywhere near Plagueis' caliber.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
His only chance is drain.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Same as with Nihilus.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
As did Plagueis, by training Sidious.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Link/quote?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Yeah?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What did he do?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
...''depending upon the storyline'' sounds very ambigous and non-canon.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Before he was in his prime, he brought down ceilings from caves the size of cathedrals.

Jedi Master Orgus Din collapsed a large cave with just one hand. I wonder what he can do with both of his hands. And he is still outclassed by many in his era.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
lol

''It was a coincidence''? You're grasping at straws.

Feeling for its shatterpoint.

He found a knot of fault lines in the shadow's future; he chose the largest fracture and followed it back to the here and the now... And it led him, astonishingly, to a man standing frozen in the slashed-open doorway. Mace had no need to look; the presence in the Force was familiar, and was as uplifting as sunlight breaking through a thunderhead.

The chosen one was here.

Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish.

His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge.

Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop.

Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete.

Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Revan's Pov + Drew's opinion is better than what you've got.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You clearly don't grasp how impressive the speed shown was.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, SWTCE explicitly makes this clear.

Where?