Originally posted by Bardock42
No one's saying men have it easy in every way. Or that all men have it easier than women. Just that men have advantages in society that permit them more freedom than women.
The problem with pointing this out is that the inverse is also true, to the point where basically you're just being discriminatory if you make a big deal out of one side (male privilege) but don't make the same stink about the other (female privilege).
One can argue that one side's privileges aren't as significant as the others, or are more justifiable, but imo that's pretty arbitrary, and doesn't belong in an appeal to logic, especially in a logical appeal that is about "equality".
Originally posted by Tzeentch._
The problem with pointing this out is that the inverse is also true, to the point where basically you're just being discriminatory if you make a big deal out of one side (male privilege) but don't make the same stink about the other (female privilege).One can argue that one side's privileges aren't as significant as the others, or are more justifiable, but imo that's pretty arbitrary, and doesn't belong in an appeal to logic, especially in a logical appeal that is about "equality".
By the same logic you could say that a person with a gunshot wound to the chest should not be treated before someone with a papercut on their fingertip and they should have equal time and consideration by doctors, which is obviously ridiculous.
The real issue is when the ignorance of someone's male privilege makes them commit harmful things to other people, which is in essence what Anita has been pointing out there.
Detrimental effects of men by the patriarchal system is an interesting and important issue, but lets be honest here, almost all of the research on it has been performed by (liberal) feminist women and some feminist men, so it is double-y unfair of radical MRA's ("Men's Rights Activists" whose ideology is completely flawed) to blame the only people actually speaking out about the issues men face. (who are incidentally also not to blame at all)
Originally posted by Bardock42No, you're flat out incorrect. Sorry to break it to you, but it's entirely arbitrary.
You are completely wrong about that, of course. Arguing the extend of oppression or privilege is definitely not arbitrary. And it's also important to do if you want to figure out how to come to an equal situation.By the same logic you could say that a person with a gunshot wound to the chest should not be treated before someone with a papercut on their fingertip and they should have equal time and consideration by doctors, which is obviously ridiculous.
The real issue is when the ignorance of someone's male privilege makes them commit harmful things to other people, which is in essence what Anita has been pointing out there.
Detrimental effects of men by the patriarchal system is an interesting and important issue, but lets be honest here, almost all of the research on it has been performed by (liberal) feminist women and some feminist men, so it is double-y unfair of radical MRA's ("Men's Rights Activists" whose ideology is completely flawed) to blame the only people actually speaking out about the issues men face. (who are incidentally also not to blame at all)
In 85% of domestic abuse incidents, women are the victims.
In 88% of custody battles, the mother wins.
Prove factoid A is "a bigger deal" than factoid B. You can't. You think you can, because your moral compass tells you that "it should be obvious" that factoid A is more important, but no one gives a shit about your moral compass (especially the father who lost custody of his kids to his crackhead ex-wife), and that's why it's arbitrary.
The problem that many feminists fail to see, yourself included apparently, is that civil rights movements succeed by drumming up sympathy for the oppressed. Sitting on a street corner and getting the shit beaten out of you, Martin Luther King style, works much better at getting the general public to feel bad for your circumstances than walking down the street kicking the ass out of everyone who doesn't let you take a sip from the whites' water fountain. You might be justified in doing the latter, maybe those white people you beat up had it coming because they've been oppressing blacks forever, but you aren't doing yourself any favors in the long run. Congrats, "you were right", but the very people that you're trying to get sympathy from now just feel resentment. That isn't going to help your cause.
Similarly, while you might feel that if you're a Christian Caucasian Male you've got it way easier in life than women, I can guarantee you that shouting it from the rooftops is just going to make christian Caucasian males resentful... which isn't going to help your little movement any. So, why are you surprised when those same caucasion christian males later spit on you when you complain about inequality?
If you're going to shout "EQUALITY, EQUALITY!" than be equal. Don't trivialize or justify one groups circumstances in favor of another.
Originally posted by Tzeentch._
No, you're flat out incorrect. Sorry to break it to you, but it's entirely arbitrary.In 85% of domestic abuse incidents, women are the victims.
In 88% of custody battles, the mother wins.
Prove factoid A is "a bigger deal" than factoid B. You can't. You think you can, because your moral compass tells you that "it should be obvious" that factoid A is more important, but no one gives a shit about your moral compass (especially the father who lost custody of his kids to his crackhead ex-wife), and that's why it's arbitrary.
The problem that many feminists fail to see, yourself included apparently, is that civil rights movements succeed by drumming up sympathy for the oppressed. Sitting on a street corner and getting the shit beaten out of you, Martin Luther King style, works much better at getting the general public to feel bad for your circumstances than walking down the street kicking the ass out of everyone who doesn't let you take a sip from the whites' water fountain. You might be justified in doing the latter, maybe those white people you beat up had it coming because they've been oppressing blacks forever, but you aren't doing yourself any favors in the long run. Congrats, "you were right", but the very people that you're trying to get sympathy from now just feel resentment. That isn't going to help your cause.
Similarly, while you might feel that if you're a Christian Caucasian Male you've got it way easier in life than women, I can guarantee you that shouting it from the rooftops is just going to make christian Caucasian males resentful... which isn't going to help your little movement any. So, why are you surprised when those same caucasion christian males later spit on you when you complain about inequality?
If you're going to shout "EQUALITY, EQUALITY!" than be equal. Don't trivialize or justify one groups circumstances in favor of another.
You can reduce everything to "it's relative to my morals", that's not a particularly new discovery. But you can also try to quantify the impact something has and for yourself decide what you think is worse. For example my papercut argument, sure it's not absolute, you can argue it, but almost everyone will agree. Similarly most people will agree that say 1 in 4 women getting sexually abused is worse than some men being mocked for liking feminine assigned things.
However at any rate you can convince people to see things your way, and that's where I am sort of losing what you are saying. Are you advocating a non-violent/passive or a violent/aggressive approach? Because I believe both can work, the civil rights movement itself is a good example of that. At any rate I don't think my approach or Anita's is in any way agressive or violent. It may hurt feelings of some people who are not used to having their advantages pointed out to them, but that's hardly the same as actual aggression or violence.
And talking about making the privileged group resentful, I don't think MLKs non-violent approach shielded him from immense resentment.
But I'd be interested, what, in your opinion, would help my little movement if at the very least speaking out on a forum about it (to be honest, that is the bare minimum I can think of, any less pro-activeness and I'd be sitting on my couch doing nothing)
[edit]As for your edit, again, feminists are the only ones actually discussing and working against the root of men's oppression. Scapegoating them is unjustified.
[edit 2]The numbers for the US is that 75% of convicted domestic abusers are male, while 75% of the victims in these cases are female (you can make a very good point about dark figures and court bias however, so those numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt (as in men are more likely to be reported and convicted, and they are less likely to report). Further complicated is the issue by severity of the abuse, i.e. considerably more women die due to it.
Originally posted by Tzeentch._
It might not be, tbh. They're both stats I just ripped off the first source that popped up on google searches.Either way, the actual figures aren't really necessary for my overall point. You can swap them with any figures.
Oh, of course. It just stood out to me when I glanced at your post was all.
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So, them games and feminism... Speaking of, did anyone else play Tomb Raider?
Originally posted by -Pr-
The new one is better than Underworld, even if blind firing is somehow absent.
I like her redesign definitely. I've never been a big fan of Tomb Raider before, the only games I really played felt really broken and not fun at all. But that was like 12 years ago or so...
Oh, also, just want to add, that quote you have Blax, that was by far the best Epic Rap Battle of History (Lincoln is knocking it out of the park in it)
Originally posted by Bardock42
I like her redesign definitely. I've never been a big fan of Tomb Raider before, the only games I really played felt really broken and not fun at all. But that was like 12 years ago or so...Oh, also, just want to add, that quote you have Blax, that was by far the best Epic Rap Battle of History (Lincoln is knocking it out of the park in it)
I've been a tomb raider fan since the very first game, and this game is the best by far in terms of gameplay and presentation. Even with the controversy going on, it's still well worth playing.
Originally posted by -Pr-
I've been a tomb raider fan since the very first game, and this game is the best by far in terms of gameplay and presentation. Even with the controversy going on, it's still well worth playing.
Is there a controversy still going on? The ones I can recall happened a while ago.
I'd play it right now, but it's really my girlfriend's game and she doesn't like when I play her games first. So I'm playing Deus Ex: Human Revolution instead.
Originally posted by Bardock42
No one's saying men have it easy in every way. Or that all men have it easier than women. Just that men have advantages in society that permit them more freedom than women.
Do they now? Do tell.
Obviously there's also intersectionality to keep in mind. White women are privileged over black men in many aspects due to their race, which awards them more opportunities. There are all sorts of things that can privilege a person (class, wealth, gender, race, nationality, sexual orientation, gender identity, and so on).
I am not entirely sure why you are bringing up how race plays a part in it, because from my point of view it isn't relevant.
The use of terms like "male privilege" is inherently damaging, because it promotes an "us vs. them" viewpoint, in that it asserts that their issues are entirely worse/more important than men's.
Now, I ask you, would you claim to know exactly how it feels to be a woman Bardock? I will assume no. Why then, could a woman claim to know how it feels to be a man, with all certainty?
Women face oppression and have gender-related issues, that is true, but so do men. The justice system is heavily slanted in favor of women, things that would get a man thrown in prison for years have a woman sent to house arrest (Debra Lafave is the case I am thinking of at the moment). Blax has already touched on cases of child custody, and indeed on much of what I would have said in general. Men also have expectations in demeanor and mindset, being conditioned to express little to no emotion (Which as mentioned in that gay as **** GDF thread is a good contender for top reasons so many men play pin the razor-blade on the artery).
To arbitrarily place one group's problems in a pedestal as "worse" enforces "us vs. them", and makes it hard for "them" to value the legitimate issues "us" has, because it trivializes the issues of "them".
I don't know how hard it is to be a woman, since I am not one. I do have an idea of the difficulties one can face from being both a man, and from having a non-hetero orientation, so I can try to evaluate the issues those groups face (Mostly the former, since the latter are far more well-known), but I would not dare attempt to put the difficulties of being a man above those of being a woman, because there is no way I could know. And the same is true for any woman. Sure, they can study and look at various problems affecting both genders, but she would have no idea how gender-issues related to being a man affect the men in question.
That said: I would agree with your stance that many of the problems facing men are fabricated by men. I'm not familiar enough on the concept of Patriarchy to label that as the origin (My only knowledge on the subject being from the mouths of misogynists), but I do think that a lot of the favoring of women in the Justice System or the inhibitions placed upon male behavior are male-created. Women are not the only ones forced into gender roles. Just as women are more typically expected to be nurses rather than doctors (Okay, sort of a real outdated example, but it is rather late), men are expected to not be, and it is thought of as less manly to be a nurse even today by many.
tl;dr, bullshit terms like "male privilege" make the problem worse and are founded by faulty and arbitrary assumptions, also you're a ****ing German **** you Scheisstkoft or however that shit is pronounced. 👆 estahuh
Sorry if there are spelling errors and shit in this post or if it is sorta incoherent, it is once again pretty late.