Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
I think we're talking about OoT/MM/Hero's shade.As for link's "reaction speed", he actually constantly perceives the world as going half as fast as we do. Didn't he catch honest to goodness lightning in SS?
Hey there, sorry if I came across as hostile in an earlier post.
I actually confused your for another poster who doesn't have an avatar. Lol.
But, when was it shown Link perceives the world half as fast? That would be interesting, not mindblowing but interesting. And he didn't catch lightning, but rather used his sword as an lightning rod by holding it up during a storm.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Herp. Any Link who can match Ganondorf's combat speed is capable of this based on the arrows alone, let alone the lightning.
And what is Ganondorf's combat speed supposed to be? You talk about the arrows that he can block constantly if you try to use them, but how provably fast are these arrows?
Not in fiction. [/B]
Sure it is. No one in fiction has a perception speed skewed so high as to leave their own walking/running/sprinting speed as feeling like a statue speed in comparison. That means for the most part, any fan extrapolated high end reaction feat that they have of far outstripping their ability to run is PIS, since their running speed will be the more common feat.
Though its less so arguable if the author in question explicitly states 'X reaction speed' and 'Y running speed'.
Although, to be fair, sometimes running speed can be shown as mundane in speed simply because its shown through the perception level of a super speed runner in the first place. (e.g. how it was shown in smallville). So if there are no visual cues to tell us one way or another (e.g. no falling leaves and such in the background to gauge time frames), then maybe its still arguable that someone like Ganon is running at super speed anyway when he appears to be moving at a mundane speed to us the viewer.
For the most part, this "Reaction =/= Movement" brigade comes from those who can't have the super speed cake but still want a slice of the super speed cake. E.G. Thor not being remotely fast as Superman, (like, not even 1%) yet his fans will still try to argue the 'reaction' speed thing to make it as though he can keep up with Superman with no problem in a fight. Which is retarded because unless Thor can only move at lightspeed in quick bursts (and then require a cool down time long enough to bring his average speed down significantly), he IS moving at lightspeed if he can constantly move his body around in a comparable time frame to what Superman is doing.
And what is Ganondorf's combat speed supposed to be? You talk about the arrows that he can block constantly if you try to use them, but how provably fast are these arrows?
No one in fiction has a perception speed skewed so high as to leave their own walking/running/sprinting speed as feeling like a statue speed in comparison.
Karate Kid, Cassandra Cain, most Jedi, The Hulk, Spider-Man when he's on foot, Wolverine, etc.
then maybe its still arguable that someone like Ganon is running at super speed anyway when he appears to be moving at a mundane speed to us the viewer.
Repeating myself after a late edit:
"For the most part, this "Reaction =/= Movement" brigade comes from those who can't have the super speed cake but still want a slice of the super speed cake. E.G. Thor not being remotely fast as Superman, (like, not even 1%) yet his fans will still try to argue the 'reaction' speed thing to make it as though he can keep up with Superman with no problem in a fight. Which is retarded because unless Thor can only move at lightspeed in quick bursts (and then require a cool down time long enough to bring his average speed down significantly), he IS moving at lightspeed if he can constantly move his body around in a comparable time frame to what Superman is doing."
And none of the people you bring up fit the bill of what I'm saying. They don't have a reaction speed that makes their running speed look like its non-existant.
Scans. I don't want bullshit flight from point A to point B stuff either. That doesn't count, as even characters with no super speed at all can and have done that.
This 'combat' only extrapolation of higher speed feats is why its so laughable. As its simply catering to the idea of PIS that they only seem to move at whatever high end speeds that they are not capable of actually acheiving otherwise, when the plot calls for it so that they can survive. You need explicit, and practical speed feats. Explicit, as in time frames given for the characters in question. For Thor's case, his most explicit physical speed feat is when he was stated to throw a haymaker in a microsecond. This is good. Not remotely lightspeed good, but good. As far as practical speeds go, Thor once built a simple tower in like a minute, by hand. A good speed feat. Not even remotely lightspeed good, let alone massively faster than light (like Superman rebuilding an entire New York sized city in Metropolis in seconds), but good. If Thor can't match Superman's speeds of sitting in a diner with Barry Allen and seeing the world in a frozen state of attoseconds, Or rebuild a city with his barehands in seconds, it means he utterly gets the shit beat out of him in a fight because the speed difference is that great.
None of those people see their running speed as moving in slow motion to themselves. They don't see their legs as statues.
And Wolverine has actual speedster like running feats too.
Thor(s) and Gorr fight across distances of light years, consistently intercepting each other's massively FTL flight and beating on each other at those speeds. The scans should be in Thor v.s. SSJ2 Goku in All Versus.
Don't particularly buy your rationalization of why it's wrong, because if you get to do that, I get to point out that moving at light speed is impossible. Fiction doesn't care about what makes sense, all that matters is what we're shown and told.
Logan has 'speedster like' running feats? Sure, he'd rock ass at the olympics, but he's not outrunning any bullets. Dodging them though? Yes. Blitzing people who bullet time? Yes. (And I hate it when he does that.) The speed he can actually travel at outside of combat is garbage compared to his shown combat and reaction speeds. The same for Spider-Man if he's on foot. Webs > Running places. Yet a bullet is fired at him and he can still get out of the way if he starts reacting after it is fired. He's the king of the low tier speed blitz, but his top running speed is nowhere near the speed he moves during a fight.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Thor(s) and Gorr fight across distances of light years, consistently intercepting each other's massively FTL flight and beating on each other at those speeds. The scans should be in Thor v.s. SSJ2 Goku in All Versus.
Saw it. Not remotely what you said.
Gorr was blasted lightyears away to some moon by old Thor. The blast was from only maybe 50 feet away. The blast was fast enough to take him lightyears away, as said before.
Did Gorr react to the blast? No. He failed to react to the blast.
Then newb Thor and old Thor flew through space FTL to reach the moon that he landed on. This is point A to point B flying, and is a completely dismissable speed feat as a trope, as EVERYONE who can fly in space has done this. John Stewart in JLU flew FTL through space. Even scrub GLs could do that. They were not even remotely as fast was Wally who's barely lightspeed at his absolute best on the ground. Agreggor in Ben 10 flew to another Galaxy in less than a day, and he was just a typical brick on land.
Later, the middle Thor knocked Gorr through a wormhole and followed through.
Don't particularly buy your rationalization of why it's wrong, because if you get to do that, I get to point out that moving at light speed is impossible. Fiction doesn't care about what makes sense, all that matters is what we're shown and told.
Of course, your mileage may vary as to how you take to certain points in a versus thread. You could easily just say, none of it counts at all because its fiction and thus bullshit by default, but then there's no debate.
Characters have been flying at lightspeed and beyond for decades.
The oldest I know of first hand is Captain Marvel doing that back in the 40s, pretty much just a few years removed of Superman's debut. So basically since the start of American superhero comics.
The grander the issue, the more leeway and handwaving it is afforded (e.g. exceeding lightspeed, pulling a planet etc.), as it would get far too much in the way of showing cool stuff.
What I'm talking about is far, far more simple;
NO character out there has a reaction speed that makes their leg speed looks like its non-existent. None of them.
When Wolverine fights someone at or around his speed level, like Spiderman, do they stand there and fight like Rock Em Sock Em Robots? No. Obviously not. They move their entire body. Why? Because obviously, their legs and and arms move in proportion to each other.
If Spiderman can use his legs to do a backflip against an incoming bullet, then what keeps him from taking simple steps in the same time frame?
If he can do a backflip in like 100 microseconds (ballpark guessing number) or what have you, he can take a couple of steps forward in that same 100 microseconds, and if he can keep on doing that, then he's already moving at superspeed to match his reaction speed.
WHAT keeps him from doing just that? Simple. PIS. You either have to call PIS on his reflex speed being so far above what he can run at, or call PIS on his running speed being so slow. You cannot have the two exist at the same time without acknowleding the obvious implication that their legs are thousands of times slower than their arms and thus should seem absolutely useless to them in a fight with reflex tier peers. Spiderman can't throw thousands of punches and for ever one footstep he takes.
Since we're talking about what is 'shown and told' in comics, for one thing, you have to realize that what you're shown does not always mean what you extrapolate it to mean. You can extrapolate flying through space as a speed feat (since your reflexes logically would have to be great to navigate and not overshoot your target), but that does not mean what you're simply shown means what you extrapolate it to mean. Such a scene for Thor would imply that he could outrun Quicksilver in a race, but what writer is going to admit to that being his intention when pressed on the implication of what his scene showed? It only works if you're shown, and then explicitly told details about what is happening.
Obviously, that's how we even got to the nigh universal hand-waving of lazer dodging in comics being a useless trope feat. It only becomes non-handwaveable when we are explicitly told, "Character A dodged a lazer that was moving at X speed".
If you try to deny lightspeed+, which is a much grander and more complex issue, then you have to agree to my far more simple and intuitive point of Reflexes and Reactions being tied. And what's worse, even 'in comics', they are acknowledged as tied. As I already told you, the Flash's reaction level is on par with his speed. He does not see himself as fast, he sees himself as normal. Its everything else that's slow. The same for Quicksilver, as Mark Waid will tell you.
This is the problem with typical non-speedster class characters like Spiderman and Wolverine who are still regarded as fast. Their shown reflex speeds are not consistent with what you could extrapolate.
Spiderman may bullet time in one scene, but in another, he'll be speed blitzed by Speed Demon who is stated to be punching him like 1000 times a second. If his reaction level is so great, why is he suddenly having so much trouble against a speed level that should be within his reach by feats? Then you have situations with more concrete numbers for Spiderman like his reflexes being stated to be 40 times greater than any human's (while he's moving his entire body around the entire time, jumping, ducking, somersaulting etc.), and thus should easily be able to simply run comparably fast to what he's doing there. Fan extrapolated reaction levels are just not reliable overall. Hence, the PIS argument being usable.
Logan has 'speedster like' running feats? Sure, he'd rock ass at the olympics, but he's not outrunning any bullets. Dodging them though? Yes. Blitzing people who bullet time? Yes. (And I hate it when he does that.) The speed he can actually travel at outside of combat is garbage compared to his shown combat and reaction speeds. The same for Spider-Man if he's on foot. Webs > Running places. Yet a bullet is fired at him and he can still get out of the way if he starts reacting after it is fired. He's the king of the low tier speed blitz, but his top running speed is nowhere near the speed he moves during a fight.
Wolverine runs fast enough to be invisible to peak humans.
With that being said, even with fan extrapolated reaction levels not being reliable at all, and their running speed being a far more consistent and usable metric, the level that Wolverine and Spiderman typically top out at is around the bullet timing level, and while they are not to my knowledge shown to be capable of running that fast (it wouldn't surprise me if they did it once or twice though, as Captain America had raced a bullet to its target before) this level of reaction vs speed is far too common a trope for me to ignore.
It's passable. The Wolverines, Clouds, and Spidermen of the world are ok with me. It's not that atrocious at these levels. Afterall, speed of sound is what, 730 mph roughly right? Truthfully that's only 27 times faster than the fastest human sprinter.
However, the low-meta running speed + lightspeed reaction LolCoupling that is afforded to the likes of Thor and Thanos are utterly laughable, dismissable, downright stupid, and unsupported. Neither of them are outright stated to be reacting in on the level nanoseconds by the narration, and neither of them have practical speed feats that would suggest that they have that level of speed either. Thus for them entirely, any fan extrapolations of their immensely greater reflexes are PIS.
If Thor could move his entire body around to react to someone like Superman in a nanosecond, then he can take simple steps forward in a nanosecond. Meaning he could be said to walk at lightspeed. We all know he can't remotely do that, nor will he ever.
Saw it. Not remotely what you said.|You're looking at the wrong page.Gorr was blasted lightyears away to some moon by old Thor. The blast was from only maybe 50 feet away. The blast was fast enough to take him lightyears away, as said before.
Did Gorr react to the blast? No. He failed to react to the blast.
After Gorr is blasted light years away Thor co. pursue him, as they're moving massively FTL he starts throwing chunks of moon at them, aimed to intercept their flight. They take note and start smashing them. Later While again travelling between worlds Gorr intercepts Thor mid flight and they begin duking it out. I have the entire comic on hand if you want it.
This is not simply A to B flight.
NO character out there has a reaction speed that makes their leg speed looks like its non-existent. None of them.
That's why I can name several off the top of my head?
When Wolverine fights someone at or around his speed level, like Spiderman, do they stand there and fight like Rock Em Sock Em Robots? No. Obviously not. They move their entire body. Why? Because obviously, their legs and and arms move in proportion to each other.
If Thor could move his entire body around to react to someone like Superman in a nanosecond, then he can take simple steps forward in a nanosecond. Meaning he could be said to walk at lightspeed. We all know he can't remotely do that, nor will he ever
And then you have times where Thor admits he can't keep up with Wolverine.
Originally posted by ares834And then you have times where Thor speedblitzes Skyfathers like Surter.
And then you have times where Thor admits he can't keep up with Wolverine. Thor can not fight at FTL speeds except for a few examples all of which are very arguable.
Shut the **** up. 👆
CosmicComet's argument can easily be shut down by telling his fat, unsightly ass to post scans of Spiderman running several times faster than the speed of sound.
Scan for Thor blitzing Surtur?
Not to mention I haven't seen anything showing Surtur to be a very fast character.
The fact is Thor isn't a speedster and he has gotten blitzed by characters like Mongoose.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
And then you have times when Spider-Man beats up Firelord. Stupid things happen in comic books. Thor jobbing is one of them. At least writers occasionally try to remind us he holds back when he's with the Avengers so he doesn't make the rest of them look like ass.
This isn't a one time thing. Thor's speed or lack thereof has been commented on by others including Captain America and some fodder god. Now you're right, i would argue that Thor is faster than Wolverine (although not by a massive amount) but he sure as hell isn't a speedster.
Originally posted by StealthRanger
Bullet timing is trivial to Kratos given his reaction feats (reacting to lightning and Poseidon, which is at least hypersonic+ or something)Even if he wasn't bullets can't harm Kratos. Not at all
Microsoft team is a non factor. Lacks strength, speed, durability, destructive capacity and hax to be of any significance
Keep in mind Link can slow time and has caught lightning.
How so? I don't remember Kratos ever encountering future ballistics.
I wouldn't question Chief in terms of durability, nor Marcus in destructive capacity. Chief fell from atmosphere and got back up soon after as if it didn't even happen, and Marcus has access to the Hammer of Dawn, which is an entire system of WMDs capable of razing a planet. I wouldn't have put them here if I didn't see an initial chance for them. Arguments can be made.
Lightning timing has been contested here several times, most people agree that he's not a lightning timer
Kratos has tanked and dodged far worse than bullets
Pretty sure he had an armor lock on and was KOed for quite some time, that and using a piece of starship armor to land or something like that. Even then, that's at best a large building+ level durability feat, Kratos has at least town+ level DC so, yeah. HoD, wouldn't that be outside help? Marcus is merely peak human with guns so yea, he's useless