Originally posted by noitseuq
Not if Sidious can render Obi-Wan's abilities as a swordsman irrelevant by immediately overwhelming him with the force.
Which would still have no bearing on Obi-Wan being able to compete with Sidious as a duelist... and yet George says quite clearly that only Mace and Yoda can compete with the Emperor. Clearly, Obi-Wan doesn't qualify in any martial respect.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which would still have no bearing on Obi-Wan being able to compete with Sidious as a duelist... and yet George says quite clearly that only Mace and Yoda can compete with the Emperor. Clearly, Obi-Wan doesn't qualify in any martial respect.
Agreed. Kenobi is only slightly better then Fisto/Tiin/Kolar so he dies just as fast as them. Sidious is just to awesome.
Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Kenobi>Fisto in defence and Fisto>Kenobi in offensive. Which is why it balances out to Kenobi>Fisto by a slight edge.
But the point is that if you evaluate their strengths and weaknesses and analyse why Sidious was able to overwhelm Kit so easily, you could reasonably come to the conclusion that Obi-Wan is far more equipped in his ability to simply survive in a battle against Sidious, and while that may only delay the inevitable in a one-on-one scenario, in a team based battle he very well could pose a threat, with Sidious having two other opponents to consider, or rather he could very well enhance the threat that Dooku and Maul individually pose. A team as a unit poses a threat in its sheer numbers and what a good defensive unit of that team does is help maintain the strength of those numbers.
True but again Fisto has better speed feats then Kenobi and is faster. At best Kenobi=Fisto in speed. So Kenobi wont be able to react to Sidious before Sidious slams a saber through his chest just like he did to Kit.
But you cannot say that speed was the only factor at play in Sidious destroying Kit in seconds, and that defensive technique didn't play a role at all.
But the point is that if you evaluate their strengths and weaknesses and analyse why Sidious was able to overwhelm Kit so easily, you could reasonably come to the conclusion that Obi-Wan is far more equipped in his ability to simply survive in a battle against Sidious, and while that may only delay the inevitable in a one-on-one scenario, in a team based battle he very well could pose a threat, with Sidious having two other opponents to consider, or rather he could very well enhance the threat that Dooku and Maul individually pose. A team as a unit poses a threat in its sheer numbers and what a good defensive unit of that team does is help maintain the strength of those numbers.
The thing is Sidious already beat a team not much weaker then this team speedblizting 3 of the Jedi. If Windu whos about equal to Dooku wasint able to stop Tiin/Kolar(who together would beat Kenobi). So I dont think Dooku/Maul being there will help Kenobi at all when Sidious is so much faster.
But you cannot say that speed was the only factor at play in Sidious destroying Kit in seconds, and that defensive technique didn't play a role at all.
Kenobi has the defensive edge above Fisto, sure. But Fisto has the speed edge. So it balances out to Kenobi>Fisto slightly. Sidious is just to fast. Before Kenobi would know what him a saber would be in his gut. I dont see how Kenobis defense would help him last longer then the other 3.
Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
[B]The thing is Sidious already beat a team not much weaker then this team speedblizting 3 of the Jedi. If Windu whos about equal to Dooku wasint able to stop Tiin/Kolar(who together would beat Kenobi). So I dont think Dooku/Maul being there will help Kenobi at all when Sidious is so much faster.
There's only so much Windu can do when two of his teammates are not even able to react to Sidious's attacks. A team is in many ways as strong as its weakest defensive link, and the presence of multiple members of that team being completely unable to defend themselves is extremely damaging to the team's ability to maintain its numbers and strength as a team. You could point out that the team had greater numbers and the presence of Windu who's arguably the best swordsman listed but its inability to maintain its numbers due to its many weak links is a weakness this trio cannot be said to possess.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which would still have no bearing on Obi-Wan being able to compete with Sidious as a duelist... and yet George says quite clearly that only Mace and Yoda can compete with the Emperor. Clearly, Obi-Wan doesn't qualify in any martial respect.
I still maintain that George would only be speaking with respect to any realistic scenario where Obi-Wan would be engaging Sidious, which would be a scenario where anything goes.
Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Hmmm.As far as I know, shatterpoint is a purely EU concept. So with that being the case, does that mean that Lucas believes Mace to be > Dooku in a fight?
[rant]The only reason the line doesn't read "you have to be Yoda to compete with the Emperor" is because Sam Jackson demanded a glorious death scene.[/rant]
I don't know. You can justify Dooku's exclusion a number of ways: Dooku wouldn't fight Sidious anyway because he was too busy being his b1tch; Dooku was already dead at the point in the movie that Mace and Sidious threw down, removing him from the list of potential candidates; Dooku isn't as tough as Mace.
Originally posted by noitseuq
I still maintain that George would only be speaking with respect to any realistic scenario where Obi-Wan would be engaging Sidious, which would be a scenario where anything goes.
Likewise, I maintain that Obi-Wan being able to compete with Sidious as a duelist would fly in the face of a declaration that says Obi-Wan can't compete with Sidious. Given the context and the fact that one can't not compete with one's enemy in a fight if one can in fact compete with one's enemy in a fight. It's mutually exclusive: Either Obi-Wan can compete or he can't. He can't, per George.
I think the statement "only Yoda and Mace can compete with Sideous" precludes context like in-character motives or timeline issues, though the statement is vague enough to be interpreted in different ways.
Dunno. I always thought Mace was at least marginally superior of a fighter than Dooku, hence why that statement caught my eye.
Originally posted by Tzeentch._
I think the statement "only Yoda and Mace can compete with Sideous" precludes context like in-character motives or timeline issues, though the statement is vague enough to be interpreted in different ways.Dunno. I always thought Mace was at least marginally superior of a fighter than Dooku, hence why that statement caught my eye.
Janus and Nai certainly preferred such alternative interpretations. I haven't made my mind up, really. Assuming Mace's victory over Sidious was entirely legitimate and not a complete one-time fluke, he'd have to be Dooku's better.
On the other hand, it undermines every classic fictional trope sensibility I can fathom. Thematically, it's more appropriate to make the chain appear as follows: Sidious > Yoda > Dooku > Mace, especially since the PT is essentially three movies of Sith winning.
Well there's no evidence that Lucas sees Mace > Dooku.
All the evidence(from Lucas, the movies and from the EU) suggests Yoda and Sidious were the 2 most powerful force/lightsaber wielders (despite Mace beating Sidious) and that Mace and Dooku were the next most powerful (or possibly Skywalker).
Everyone assumes Mace > Dooku simply because Mace beat Sidious once, and Dooku lost to Skywalker. But that kind of logic didn't even work in ROTS. Just look Skywalker vs Dooku vs Kenobi vs Skywalker. How much of a headache has that always been to debate?
Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Why not?.
Firstly I would point out that "the best" is an entirely relative term that could allow for an extremely vast range in hierarchical status that's basically impossible to determine, though one thing we can say for certain is that it clearly deals in a disparity of ability that at the very least extends from the ability to compete to Sidious to the inability to survive against him for a matter of seconds. Referring to them as "the best" if anything displays the liberties writers will take with the ambiguity of language rather than determining anything substantial about their placement. So I am largely disagreeing with the usage of that quote moreso than the message it was originally intended to convey.
Tiin has redirected homing missels at point blank range. Has thrown around droids with his mind.
I fail to be impressed. From what I understand practially any Jedi in animated or illustrated form would be easily capable of as much.
Stalemated Mace Windu in sabers.
In what kind of scenario (I would imagine a largely inconsequential and indecisive sparring session), and are you suggesting that Mace Windu is anything but vastly superior as a lightsaber duelist?
Believed to have read Qui Gons mind.
Believed? And through a Jedi ability or a natural ability as an Iktotchi? I also fail to see how relevant this is.
Kolar has been stated to be one of the best saber duelists along with Mace Windu in the orders history and has bested Quinlan Vos with complete and total ease well holding back a feat only replicated by Count Dooku and Mace Windu.
Many people would question how skilled Quinlan truly was; he was an amnesiac that had only recently been going through his retraining and he's shown to struggle against basically anybody truly notable that he comes across, from Volfe Karkko to Sora Bulq (in both cases getting his ass thoroughly kicked for the majority of the engagements) until managing to pull off wins at the end of both bouts. You also neglect to mention that Quinlan Vos himself was holding back against Agen and actively fleeing the battle at every opportunity he could.
Kit Fisto has defeated Obi Wan Kenobi in Cestus Deception been stated to have has moved so fast he looks as if hes in 3 places at once and dominated General Grievous.
An Obi-Wan that was by comparison earlier in his growth as a Jedi, in a friendly sparring session. You also fail to mention he gets defeated by Asajj Ventress who herself wasn't far into her growth as a Force User, while facing disadvantages which haven't been established to be particularly significant. What can be interpreted as obvious hyperbole and while I won't be able to say too much on the matter until I've watched the show myself, from what I've been told Grievous has been significantly depowered by the show.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Likewise, I maintain that Obi-Wan being able to compete with Sidious as a duelist would fly in the face of a declaration that says Obi-Wan can't compete with Sidious. Given the context and the fact that one can't not compete with one's enemy in a fight if one can in fact compete with one's enemy in a fight. It's mutually exclusive: Either Obi-Wan can compete or he can't. He can't, per George.
He can't in a realistic engagement, he can in our limited scenarios. As I said, Sidious can be said to be able to render Obi-Wan's ability as a swordsman irrelevant, so what good would it be if he could compete in that one single area in the first place?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Likewise, I maintain that Obi-Wan being able to compete with Sidious as a duelist would fly in the face of a declaration that says Obi-Wan can't compete with Sidious. Given the context and the fact that one can't not compete with one's enemy in a fight if one can in fact compete with one's enemy in a fight. It's mutually exclusive: Either Obi-Wan can compete or he can't. He can't, per George.
The thing is what exactly does "compete" entail? Is it in all out combat or was he strictly speaking about lightsaber duels etc. TBH, I never took it to mean that Sidious could blitz everyone else but rather that no one else has a chance to defeat him.
Originally posted by noitseuq
He can't in a realistic engagement, he can in our limited scenarios. As I said, Sidious can be said to be able to render Obi-Wan's ability as a swordsman irrelevant, so what good would it be if he could compete in that one single area in the first place?
And as I said, if Obi-Wan's skill as a swordsman was sufficient to challenge Sidious, then he would by definition qualify as competition, which contradicts George's remark.
Originally posted by noitseuq
The thing is what exactly does "compete" entail? Is it in all out combat or was he strictly speaking about lightsaber duels etc. TBH, I never took it to mean that Sidious could blitz everyone else but rather that no one else has a chance to defeat him.
In lieu of specifics, I take it in its complete implications. If Obi-Wan were a comparable swordsman or even a challenging one, he'd have to be considered competition. Without qualification, the straightforward interpretation requires us to conclude Obi-Wan's fvcked whether or not Sidious decides to squash him with the Force or hack him to bits with a lightsaber.
Originally posted by noitseuq
while I won't be able to say too much on the matter until I've watched the show myself, from what I've been told Grievous has been significantly depowered by the show.
The fights here:
A slight embarrassment for the General tbh. Though I don't personally agree that he was dominating Grievous at all, from watching it now.