Dooku, Maul and Kenobi vs. Sids

Originally posted by noitseuq
But the point is that if you evaluate their strengths and weaknesses and analyse why Sidious was able to overwhelm Kit so easily, you could reasonably come to the conclusion that Obi-Wan is far more equipped in his ability to simply survive in a battle against Sidious, and while that may only delay the inevitable in a one-on-one scenario, in a team based battle he very well could pose a threat, with Sidious having two other opponents to consider, or rather he could very well enhance the threat that Dooku and Maul individually pose. A team as a unit poses a threat in its sheer numbers and what a good defensive unit of that team does is help maintain the strength of those numbers.

Except that Kenobi hasn't shown reaction speed that is above Fisto's. Sidious speed is such that he downed the first 2 masters before either could react. Obi Wan's skill in defense is a non-factor when it comes to such speed.

Obi Wan may be more skilled in defense than Fisto, but not necessarily faster at it. If anything, Kenobi struggled with Grievous' speed more than Fisto did, and Tiin has better reaction feats than Kenobi.

Originally posted by noitseuq
But you cannot say that speed was the only factor at play in Sidious destroying Kit in seconds, and that defensive technique didn't play a role at all.

It was mainly speed, as Kit couldn't keep up much longer. It was Sidious' speed that forced Windu into the main office. What kept Windu alive before fully submerging in vapaad was his ability to react to Sidious speed, and yet Windu's style is not even focused around defense. If one's style in defense is the determining factor on who would last the longest against such force enhanced speed, then Kenobi would have a better shot against Sidious than Dooku.

Obi Wan's skill in his preferred form doesn't automatically make him faster at defending himself than Fisto any more than it would make him faster at defending himself than the likes of Windu, Dooku, or Yoda. The latter three have something both Kenobi and Fisto lack: the ability to react and to keep up with Sidious' speed, regardless of their preferred forms.

Originally posted by noitseuq
I still maintain that George would only be speaking with respect to any realistic scenario where Obi-Wan would be engaging Sidious, which would be a scenario where anything goes.

I don't see how you can apply Lucas' statement to anything else when it was in response to one thing: Sidious's saber ownage of the masters.

As for the thread, Sidious takes all three. Even if Maul and Kenobi are able to react to some of Sidious blows and can avoid being blitzed, this doesn't grant the team a guaranteed victory.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And as I said, if Obi-Wan's skill as a swordsman was sufficient to challenge Sidious, then he would by definition qualify as competition, which contradicts George's remark.

I, at least, don't think Kenobi is going to challenge Sidious. That said I don't think Sidious is going to be able to cut him down in a handful of strikes either.

Anyway, I'm left wondering why the quote applies strictly to sword combat. He says no one else can compete which seems to apply to total combat, not that can't compete in any single aspect of combat.

Originally posted by ares834
I, at least, don't think Kenobi is going to challenge Sidious. That said I don't think Sidious is going to be able to cut him down in a handful of strikes either.

Anyway, I'm left wondering why the quote applies strictly to sword combat. He says no one else can compete which seems to apply to total combat, not that can't compete in any single aspect of combat.

Because that interpretation requires us to qualify George's remarks and impose our own biases and preferences on what he meant. What I'm saying is in lieu of qualifiers, we should consider the term "compete" in its complete context.

If Obi-Wan can threaten, challenge, or acquit himself well against Sidious in a sword fight -- arguably the primary medium by which Force users challenge one another and certainly the context in which Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar died (the same context, coincidentally, in which George issued this statement) -- then he would by definition qualify as competition to the Dark Lord, which explicitly contradicts the remark that you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Except that Kenobi hasn't shown reaction speed that is above Fisto's. Sidious speed is such that he downed the first 2 masters before either could react. Obi Wan's skill in defense is a non-factor when it comes to such speed.

Sure but when you look at Fisto who seems to be the one Obi-Wan keeps getting compared with, he does manage to react to his attacks but simply gets overwhelmed very quickly, but he was able at the very least to respond to Sidious's attacks and it's entirely conceivable that with greater, more efficient defensive technique that he would have managed to survive.

People also seem to think that the default position is that Obi-Wan is immediately on the same level of those Jedi and that a greater argument needs to be made that Obi-Wan wouldn't be blitzed rather than whether or not Sidious would be able to do the same to Obi-Wan that he did to the Jedi, nevermind how Obi-Wan stylistically measures up defensively by comparison. In the same way that people might claim that Obi-Wan hasn't proven himself to be vastly superior to those Jedi, the fact remains that he hasn't proven himself to be quite as inadequate as them either. Sidious hasn't proven that he can do the same thing to Obi-Wan.

Obi Wan may be more skilled in defense than Fisto, but not necessarily faster at it. If anything, Kenobi struggled with Grievous' speed more than Fisto did,

Having great defensive technique means that he wouldn't need to be faster at it. I'm not conviced that the G-Canon Grievous is the same entity as the T-Canon Grievous, and due to their styles Kit Fisto wouldn't go on the defensive in quite the same way as Obi-Wan would and as such would not have to fully rely on it as Obi-Wan practically does. Where Obi-Wan would defend against all that grievous would have to offer, Kit Fisto would ideally avoid all that Grievous had to offer by stifling his offense with an offense of his own.

and Tiin has better reaction feats than Kenobi.

I think I know what you're referring to and I'd like to see where you're going with this.

It was mainly speed, as Kit couldn't keep up much longer.

That certainly wouldn't have to mainly be about speed, as I said there would be multiple factors at play.

It was Sidious' speed that forced Windu into the main office. What kept Windu alive before fully submerging in vapaad was his ability to react to Sidious speed, and yet Windu's style is not even focused around defense.

Your personal interpretation.

If one's style in defense is the determining factor on who would last the longest against such force enhanced speed, then Kenobi would have a better shot against Sidious than Dooku.

Better shot in what sense? Surviving against him or defeating him?

As far as being on the defensive is concerned, and assuming the skill levels are roughly the same, then yes, the style that is tailor made for defence would be the determining factor in who would be able to last the longest. Dooku would arguably not be entirely on the defensive in a lightsaber battle between the two and most would consider Dooku a far superior swordsman in any event, and if you pose some kind of threat offensively, then your offense would itself become its own form of defence (your opponent would need to focus more on his own defence, freezing up his offense). Kit Fisto essentially poses no offensive threat to speak of and as such would not freeze up Sidious's attacks in the same way a swordsman who did, would.

Obi Wan's skill in his preferred form doesn't automatically make him faster at defending himself than Fisto any more than it would make him faster at defending himself than the likes of Windu, Dooku, or Yoda. The latter three have something both Kenobi and Fisto lack: the ability to react and to keep up with Sidious' speed, regardless of their preferred forms.

He doesn't have to be faster at defending himself when he's far more efficient at it.

I don't see how you can apply Lucas' statement to anything else when it was in response to one thing: Sidious's saber ownage of the masters.

As I said, I believe the circumstances of the battle were entirely incidental to Lucas's declaration in much the same was as the cologne they were wearing would have been. It was an element at play in what Lucas was referring to but it was by no means fundamental to his point. It simply makes more sense that Lucas was referring to the full umbrella of what a fight might entail, and that this particular one happened to be largely fought with lightsabers.

Firstly I would point out that "the best" is an entirely relative term that could allow for an extremely vast range in hierarchical status that's basically impossible to determine, though one thing we can say for certain is that it clearly deals in a disparity of ability that at the very least extends from the ability to compete to Sidious to the inability to survive against him for a matter of seconds. Referring to them as "the best" if anything displays the liberties writers will take with the ambiguity of language rather than determining anything substantial about their placement. So I am largely disagreeing with the usage of that quote moreso than the message it was originally intended to convey.

The best meaning ie some of the greatest fighters in the whole history of the Jedi order ie top 50. Fisto/Tiin/Kolar are defenilty in the top 20 strongest Jedi of all time.

I fail to be impressed. From what I understand practially any Jedi in animated or illustrated form would be easily capable of as much.

Not from I've seen. And throwing a battle droid telekinetically with his mind is extremely impressive.

Also Tiin moved his lightsaber so fast he appeared to be in 3places at once. Thats a incredible feat.

Believed? And through a Jedi ability or a natural ability as an Iktotchi? I also fail to see how relevant this is.

Pretty sure his foresight came from his skills more then his race. But the Ikotchi do posses this as a natural ability, but I believe Tiin honed his more.

In what kind of scenario (I would imagine a largely inconsequential and indecisive sparring session), and are you suggesting that Mace Windu is anything but vastly superior as a lightsaber duelist?

It is impressive seeing as how both would be curbing/holding back there powers. Windu was able to drive of Ventress in a few seconds(1panel in the comic) and he was tired from running all the way back from the area were he and Bulq engaged to the battlefield. Tiin although clearly not as good of a duelist as Windu is capable of holding his own. I consider that a great feat.

Many people would question how skilled Quinlan truly was; he was an amnesiac that had only recently been going through his retraining and he's shown to struggle against basically anybody truly notable that he comes across, from Volfe Karkko to Sora Bulq (in both cases getting his ass thoroughly kicked for the majority of the engagements) until managing to pull off wins at the end of both bouts. You also neglect to mention that Quinlan Vos himself was holding back against Agen and actively fleeing the battle at every opportunity he could.

Vos is not the best duelist but it is a incredible feat tooling him in 2slashes as Kolar has done. Only other fighters to tool him that bad are Windu/Dooku.

And I would strongly disagree with that. Kolar himself stated he did not wish to harm Vos and had to bring Vos back into questioning at coruscant. Vos refused then Kolar brought him down with a single slash then demanded he yeild. Vos ran away because he was far weaker, not because he was holding back(I can post scans if you'd like)

the only one holding back there was Agen Kolar.

An Obi-Wan that was by comparison earlier in his growth as a Jedi, in a friendly sparring session. You also fail to mention he gets defeated by Asajj Ventress who herself wasn't far into her growth as a Force User, while facing disadvantages which haven't been established to be particularly significant. What can be interpreted as obvious hyperbole and while I won't be able to say too much on the matter until I've watched the show myself, from what I've been told Grievous has been significantly depowered by the show.

Ventress only beat Fisto because she observed his fighting style before hand and Fisto was tired from fighting the droid and had fought many other fighters. Kenobi in the same state fought very well vs Ventress and Kenobi is far under Fisto at this point. So I see no reason why in a fair 1v1 with no circumstantieal advantge Fisto would lose to Ventress.

And yes he is not as powerful as he once was. But he's no push over having fought well against Obi Wan Kenobi/Asajj Ventress and beating Eeth Koth/Ashoka Tano/Nahddar Vebb.

Fistos tooling of GG shows a incredible amount of skill on his part.

Originally posted by noitseuq
Sure but when you look at Fisto who seems to be the one Obi-Wan keeps getting compared with, he does manage to react to his attacks but simply gets overwhelmed very quickly, but he was able at the very least to respond to Sidious's attacks and it's entirely conceivable that with greater, more efficient defensive technique that he would have managed to survive.

Again, not unless Obi Wan can block Sidious strikes any better than Fisto can. Kit's preferred form specializes in fighting multiple opponents, which would logically require that he have an exceptional defense. So while Obi Wan's form is better suited for defense, his speed in blocking blows isn't greater than that of Fisto's.

TBH, I've not seen anything from Kenobi, feat-wise, to suggest that he his miles ahead of Fisto in defense. The only thing people keep relying on to support this claim, is Obi Wan's mastery of his preferred form, which specializes in defense. But whatever.

As I said, Obi Wan's skill in defense becomes irrelevant to someone who is far faster and far more skilled. Being the master of every form, Sidious would be able to capitalize on any advantage/disadvantage that any form might hold, which negates any advantage Obi Wan might have over Fisto, given the disparity in both skill and speed (mainly speed) between him and Sidious.

Originally posted by noitseuq
People also seem to think that the default position is that Obi-Wan is immediately on the same level of those Jedi and that a greater argument needs to be made that Obi-Wan wouldn't be blitzed rather than whether or not Sidious would be able to do the same to Obi-Wan that he did to the Jedi, nevermind how Obi-Wan stylistically measures up defensively by comparison. In the same way that people might claim that Obi-Wan hasn't proven himself to be vastly superior to those Jedi, the fact remains that he hasn't proven himself to be quite as inadequate as them either. Sidious hasn't proven that he can do the same thing to Obi-Wan.

Mace's team had the advantage of one more jedi, which gave Sidious more jedi to target, and giving them a better chance of landing a hit on him, which in turn limited Sidious' focus more than this team would. The fact that Sidious managed to blitz the first two masters before two other aggressive fighters were able to land a hit on him, would suggest that he can take Obi Wan out in a similar fashion if he targets him first, unless Obi Wan's defensive speed is on par with Sidious' striking speed, which it's not.

Even assuming that all three of them can block some of Sidious blows, it's still a bit of a stretch to say that they would manage to land a hit on him before he can take one of them out (making the fight two to one, and easier for Sidious), considering that neither Mace nor Kit were able to land a blow on him before he was able to take out both Kolar and Tiin one shot each.

Originally posted by noitseuq
Having great defensive technique means that he wouldn't need to be faster at it. I'm not conviced that the G-Canon Grievous is the same entity as the T-Canon Grievous, and due to their styles Kit Fisto wouldn't go on the defensive in quite the same way as Obi-Wan would and as such would not have to fully rely on it as Obi-Wan practically does. Where Obi-Wan would defend against all that grievous would have to offer, Kit Fisto would ideally avoid all that Grievous had to offer by stifling his offense with an offense of his own.

Obi Wan evaded a lot of Grievous' blows, he didn't actually block all of them. Which is something Fisto is more than likely capable of replicating, given his agility.

Originally posted by noitseuq
I think I know what you're referring to and I'd like to see where you're going with this.

Tiin has better reaction speed, and yet Sidious slaughtered first Kolar then him before he was able to react.

Originally posted by noitseuq
That certainly wouldn't have to mainly be about speed, as I said there would be multiple factors at play.

Like what, skill, which would not even be noticeable given the huge disparity in speed between him and Sidious?

Originally posted by noitseuq
Your personal interpretation.

My personal interpretation? Did you not watch the movie?

"In the inner recesses of his private office, the Jedi confronted the Chancellor. Palpatine produced a lightsaber hidden in his sleeve and let the dark side flow through him. It granted him unnatural dexterity and speed—enough to quickly kill three Jedi Masters and force the mighty Mace Windu back." (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia)

"Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade." (The complete Visual Dictionary)

Certainly, being the master of one of the most aggressive saber forms, this shouldn't have happened to Windu if he truly were an equal to Sidious in speed. He had the initial advantage of three other jedi, and Sidious targets Kolar and Tiin first, giving both Fisto and Windu, two aggressively fast fighters, an opportunity to land a hit on him, and yet they couldn't. And after Sidious cuts Kit down, all Mace could do was parry Sidious' attacks, and was forced to try to keep a distance, until they reached the chancellor's office. Although Sidious had an advantage of speed, Mace was still able to block Sidious attacks longer because he was able to react faster than the other jedi and was able to keep up.

Obi Wan can't react faster than Windu, despite his more defensive approach. So, yes, it all comes down to whether or not Obi Wan can react faster than the likes of Kit, which he can't. Obi Wan would possibly do noticeably better or last longer against someone who is slightly faster than both him and Kit, but when it comes to someone who completely overshadows them both in speed, then Obi Wan's skill in defense becomes irrelevant, especially considering that Sidious completely overshadows him in skill as well. The difference in both Obi Wan's and Kit's skill in defense will not even be noticed.

Originally posted by noitseuq
Better shot in what sense? Surviving against him or defeating him?

As far as being on the defensive is concerned, and assuming the skill levels are roughly the same, then yes, the style that is tailor made for defence would be the determining factor in who would be able to last the longest. Dooku would arguably not be entirely on the defensive in a lightsaber battle between the two and most would consider Dooku a far superior swordsman in any event, and if you pose some kind of threat offensively, then your offense would itself become its own form of defence (your opponent would need to focus more on his own defence, freezing up his offense). Kit Fisto essentially poses no offensive threat to speak of and as such would not freeze up Sidious's attacks in the same way a swordsman who did, would.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Dooku would ever be on the offensive against Sidious. Against someone who is far stronger, more aggressive, and a lot faster, Dooku would be forced on the defensive. Would you suggest that Obi Wan can last longer against Sidious just because his form is more suitable for defense? Or would you agree that Dooku would last longer by virtue of having greater reaction speed.

You're acting as if they are all relatively even in speed, and they're not. The speed gap between them would negate any defensive advantage that Kenobi might have over Fisto.

Originally posted by noitseuq
As I said, I believe the circumstances of the battle were entirely incidental to Lucas's declaration in much the same was as the cologne they were wearing would have been. It was an element at play in what Lucas was referring to but it was by no means fundamental to his point. It simply makes more sense that Lucas was referring to the full umbrella of what a fight might entail, and that this particular one happened to be largely fought with lightsabers.

And I believe Lucas was referring to sabers, considering that his statement was in response to Sidious' slaughter of the B-team, which was with a lightsaber. Unless you can get more from Lucas, I say we shouldn't take the quote out of context.

Originally posted by ares834
Except, you know, that very quote that says only Mace and Yoda can compete with Sidious.

Dooku was dead. Dooku wasn't a Jedi. The quote was a response to which "Jedi" Mace should have taken with him to take on the Emperor. It would have made no sense to bring Dooku up in that quote. Just like it would have made no sense to bring up OT Vader, who has been confirmed by Lucas as being 80% as powerful as Sidious.

Besides which going strictly by the movies, Dooku did already compete against Sidious's equal- Yoda. Don't bother telling me about Yoda holding back and all, because I'm just talking here strictly per what the films show and Lucas's statements.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

In lieu of specifics, I take it in its complete implications. If Obi-Wan were a comparable swordsman or even a challenging one, he'd have to be considered competition. Without qualification, the straightforward interpretation requires us to conclude Obi-Wan's fvcked whether or not Sidious decides to squash him with the Force or hack him to bits with a lightsaber.

So do you also believe ROTS Anakin would get Saber Blitzed by Sidious simply because he isn't Mace or Yoda?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because that interpretation requires us to qualify George's remarks and impose our own biases and preferences on what he meant. What I'm saying is in lieu of qualifiers, we should consider the term "compete" in its complete context.

If Obi-Wan can threaten, challenge, or acquit himself well against Sidious in a sword fight -- arguably the primary medium by which Force users challenge one another and certainly the context in which Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar died (the same context, coincidentally, in which George issued this statement) -- then he would by definition qualify as competition to the Dark Lord, which explicitly contradicts the remark that you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor.

I just think watching the film it would have been retarded for Lucas to bring up Kenobi in that quote after what happened to him against Dooku (with Skywalker on his side). When he's THAT outmatched on the Force even by Dooku, then his Lightsaber skills no matter how great would mean squat to Sidious. (And the fact is his Lightsaber skills are not close to Sidious's anyway).

Originally posted by noitseuq
and while I won't be able to say too much on the matter until I've watched the show myself, from what I've been told Grievous has been significantly depowered by the show.

Not really. Kenobi's best performance against him is still in ROTS. In fact that's the best Saber performance against Grievous period.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Though I don't personally agree that he was dominating Grievous at all, from watching it now.

👆

As Ares has always pointed out, he never actually beat the general despite fighting him one on one for a significant length of time.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Again, not unless Obi Wan can block Sidious strikes any better than Fisto can.

Which he most likely can, assuming what people are which is that Obi-Wan is at the very least somewhat close to Kit in ability, and that his style is designed for defence. Obi-Wan has the better defensive feats against overwhelming speed, namely his performance against Grievous where he's shown to be directly defending against an onslought of attacks approaching 20 strikes per second, and Kit alone out of the two of them has proven such an utter inability to defend against Sidious.

There also seems to be this idea that Kit is substantially quicker than Obi-Wan, based on what appear to be highly hyperbolic statements from a single source, when Kenobi himself as Nephthys has pointed out seems to have received such treatment in other sources, as well as based upon how the two seemed to compare much earlier in Obi-Wan's career when he was still pretty inexperienced and Kit Fisto had already been a member of the council for years.

Obi-Wan effectively has proven far more when it comes to defending himself against an opponent with an overwhelming speed advantage, Kit Fisto has proven far more when it comes to failing to defend himself against an opponent with an overwhelming speed advantage, and Obi-Wan utilises the defensive style that was designed to compensate against physically superior opponents with efficient technique.

Kit's preferred form specializes in fighting multiple opponents, which would logically require that he have an exceptional defense.

Or if you want to be more exact, which would logically require that he have certain attributes that lend itself well to combat against multiple opponents from both a defensive and offensive standpoint that wouldn't necessarily translate into combat against a single individual (assuming it is indeed specialized for combat against multiple opponents), such as careful positioning and movement aimed to keep his opponents from successfully mounting a well coordinated attack and effectively functioning as a team in any capacity, keeping them seperated and off balance and using angles that allow him to efficiently deal with each unit of the team individually. I think you'll find it difficult to make a case that it's a matter of the form being so advanced that it's even capable of being used against multiple enemies, when it's considered the simplest form and the first one that padawan learners train in that has never been documented to be particularly impressive or desirable at higher levels in the source material.

So while Obi Wan's form is better suited for defense, his speed in blocking blows isn't greater than that of Fisto's.

It doesn't have to be. His defence against Grievous in the RotS novel illustrates exactly how that is the case, where he uses economy of movement and careful positioning to meet the attacks of his much faster opponent.

TBH, I've not seen anything from Kenobi, feat-wise, to suggest that he his miles ahead of Fisto in defense. The only thing people keep relying on to support this claim, is Obi Wan's mastery of his preferred form, which specializes in defense. But whatever.

The form that specializes in defence that he's used to great effect in defending against far more physically impressive combatants like Grievous and Anakin.

As I said, Obi Wan's skill in defense becomes irrelevant to someone who is far faster and far more skilled. Being the master of every form, Sidious would be able to capitalize on any advantage/disadvantage that any form might hold, which negates any advantage Obi Wan might have over Fisto, given the disparity in both skill and speed (mainly speed) between him and Sidious.

At a certain point, yes, but you haven't established that Sidious is that much faster than Obi-Wan. Kit Fisto himself was not entirely blitzed by Sidious, exchanges were made and while he was quickly overwhelmed there was ample opportunity for better defensive measures to be taken that a better defensive swordsman may well have.

I also find Sidious being a master of all seven forms, not to mention his present level of skill and recent experience at the time of the battle, highly questionable, and you have in no way established that Soresu has any holes in its defence that would be negated by any other form in the first place.

Mace's team had the advantage of one more jedi, which gave Sidious more jedi to target, and giving them a better chance of landing a hit on him, which in turn limited Sidious' focus more than this team would. The fact that Sidious managed to blitz the first two masters before two other aggressive fighters were able to land a hit on him,

The advantage of one more Jedi but the disadvantage of all but one of those Jedi being able to survive against Sidious for more than a few seconds. You cannot say the same thing about this team. Obviously Sidious is extremely fast and it was through both his speed and positioning himself away from the other attackers that enabled him to deal with them before the others could effectively engage him.

would suggest that he can take Obi Wan out in a similar fashion if he targets him first, unless Obi Wan's defensive speed is on par with Sidious' striking speed, which it's not.

Except that speed isn't the be all and end all of lightsaber duelling unless you assume Obi-Wan possesses the same inadequacies as the other two Jedi in being completely unable to respond to his attacks.

Even assuming that all three of them can block some of Sidious blows, it's still a bit of a stretch to say that they would manage to land a hit on him before he can take one of them out (making the fight two to one, and easier for Sidious), considering that neither Mace nor Kit were able to land a blow on him before he was able to take out both Kolar and Tiin one shot each.

I'll again remind you that this team has not proven itself to have such weak defensive links as the likes of those three Jedi and are proven to be of a far higher calibre in this situation.

Obi Wan evaded a lot of Grievous' blows, he didn't actually block all of them. Which is something Fisto is more than likely capable of replicating, given his agility.

He defended them however he could whether it was through evasion or directly meeting his attacks and I'm not sure why that's relevant. Speculation based on questionable interpretation of how duelling works and arguably hyperbolic descriptions.

Tiin has better reaction speed

Prove it.

Like what, skill, which would not even be noticeable given the huge disparity in speed between him and Sidious?

Prove it.

My personal interpretation? Did you not watch the movie?

"In the inner recesses of his private office, the Jedi confronted the Chancellor. Palpatine produced a lightsaber hidden in his sleeve and let the dark side flow through him. It granted him unnatural dexterity and speed—enough to quickly kill three Jedi Masters and force the mighty Mace Windu back." (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia)

"Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade." (The complete Visual Dictionary)

I fail to see why tertiary information based on the subjective interpretations of writers should be blindly accepted as canon.

Not that they even establish that it was entirely based on speed that Sidious was forcing Mace back and that Mace was able to defend himself, which was your claim.

Certainly, being the master of one of the most aggressive saber forms, this shouldn't have happened to Windu if he truly were an equal to Sidious in speed. He had the initial advantage of three other jedi, and Sidious targets Kolar and Tiin first, giving both Fisto and Windu, two aggressively fast fighters, an opportunity to land a hit on him, and yet they couldn't. And after Sidious cuts Kit down, all Mace could do was parry Sidious' attacks, and was forced to try to keep a distance, until they reached the chancellor's office. Although Sidious had an advantage of speed, Mace was still able to block Sidious attacks longer because he was able to react faster than the other jedi and was able to keep up.

Again, your personal interpretation.

Obi Wan can't react faster than Windu, despite his more defensive approach. So, yes, it all comes down to whether or not Obi Wan can react faster than the likes of Kit, which he can't. Obi Wan would possibly do noticeably better or last longer against someone who is slightly faster than both him and Kit, but when it comes to someone who completely overshadows them both in speed, then Obi Wan's skill in defense becomes irrelevant, especially considering that Sidious completely overshadows him in skill as well. The difference in both Obi Wan's and Kit's skill in defense will not even be noticed.

You have not managed to establish that the disparity in speed between Sidious and Obi-Wan is to such an extent that his defensive technique becomes irrelevant, you haven't even established as much for Kit and Sidious given that it was after multiple engagements that he struck him down; it's entirely possible that with a more efficient and technically proficient defense that Kit fisto might have lasted longer and this is certainly something that Obi-Wan can be suggested to possess.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Dooku would ever be on the offensive against Sidious. Against someone who is far stronger, more aggressive, and a lot faster, Dooku would be forced on the defensive. Would you suggest that Obi Wan can last longer against Sidious just because his form is more suitable for defense? Or would you agree that Dooku would last longer by virtue of having greater reaction speed.

I wouldn't suggest that it would be so simple that he would either be fully on the offensive or the defensive but rather that a duel between the two would potentially see numerous shifts in momentum and defense seamlessly blended with offence as dictated by the moment. My point was that Soresu alone places an emphasis on going immediately on the defensive, Makashi has no such emphasis and while it's possible to be forced on the offensive and for the attacker to have no regard for his opponent's own offense you have not at all established that this would be the case here and while you point out that Sidious is the physically more powerful swordsmen, many would agree that Dooku is the superior technician and utilises the form designed specifically for lightsaber dueling.

As I stated it's not so simple when one opponent is significantly superior to another which Dooku arguably is in this case, and that Dooku could potentially last longer by stifling Sidious's offense with the threat of his own.

You're acting as if they are all relatively even in speed, and they're not. The speed gap between them would negate any defensive advantage that Kenobi might have over Fisto.

Your opinion. You have not effectively established that such a speed disparity exists and are simply assuming that Obi-Wan possesses the same inadequacies that Saesee Tinn and Agen Kolar possessed.

And I believe Lucas was referring to sabers, considering that his statement was in response to Sidious' slaughter of the B-team, which was with a lightsaber. Unless you can get more from Lucas, I say we shouldn't take the quote out of context.

The difference is that my argument does not rely on drawing a particular conclusion from that quote and remains just as valid if it isn't used at all. By presenting it as ambiguous all that it has the effect of is detracting from your argument, and if you wish to argue the more likely interpretation mine has far more logical backing. As I said to Gideon Lucas's statement was in reference to the entire engagement that consisted of the lightsaber battle as well as Mace Windu defending against Sidious' force powers and was speaking with regards to a practical, realistic scenario where there would be no such constraints, regardless of whether it resembled such a scenario. If Sidious can render Obi-Wan's ability as a swordsman irrelevant with his Force powers then it's no more relevant to him being competetive against Sidious in a real scenario than any other meaningless attribute that wouldn't be of significance in a battle between the two, from how good they are in sports to who's the better pick up artist. It simply makes no sense to interpret that statement with such constraints that would not realistically be present, and it is not taking the quote out of context to point out that the shape that the battle took was almost definitely entirely incidental to the terms of that battle.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not really. Kenobi's best performance against him is still in ROTS. In fact that's the best Saber performance against Grievous period.

It's entirely possible that they were both depowered, and as such both no longer as great relative to others such as Jedi like Kit Fisto.

I'd have to watch the show myself but the impression I get is that he's no longer portrayed to be particularly formidable.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
The best meaning ie some of the [B]greatest fighters in the whole history of the Jedi order ie top 50. Fisto/Tiin/Kolar are defenilty in the top 20 strongest Jedi of all time.

Could be top 20, could be top 100, could be top 1000, could be top 1000000, we simply have no way of knowing what the writer had in mind but what we can say, as I pointed out, is that it clearly refers to a group with such a vaste range of skill levels that both Yoda and Saesee Tinn belong to it. It's basically meaningless with respect to how we would commonly refer to someone or a group as being among "the best".

Not from I've seen. And throwing a battle droid telekinetically with his mind is extremely impressive.

Your opinion.

Also Tiin moved his lightsaber so fast he appeared to be in 3places at once. Thats a incredible feat.

Arguable hyperbole and are you sure you're not mixing up your Jedi?

Pretty sure his foresight came from his skills more then his race. But the Ikotchi do posses this as a natural ability, but I believe Tiin honed his more.

Sure but it's an ultimately meaningless feat.

It is impressive seeing as how both would be curbing/holding back there powers. Windu was able to drive of Ventress in a few seconds(1panel in the comic) and he was tired from running all the way back from the area were he and Bulq engaged to the battlefield. Tiin although clearly not as good of a duelist as Windu is capable of holding his own. I consider that a great feat.

But you cannot be sure of the extent to which they were holding back their powers and we don't know the exact nature of the sparring battle, and it's ultimately meaningless as we know from how they both perform in a real combat situation that they're on entirely different levels.

Vos is not the best duelist but it is a incredible feat tooling him in 2slashes as Kolar has done. Only other fighters to tool him that bad are Windu/Dooku.

A good performance against what is ultimately not an elite Jedi. Volfe Karkko and Sota Bulq were destroying him just as easily for the most part but as with all those fights he managed to tap into something at the end to get the victory, whether it was a certain clarity with the Force or just exploiting the complacency of his opponents. Quinlan Vos is quite simply just not very good.

And I would strongly disagree with that. Kolar himself stated he did not wish to harm Vos and had to bring Vos back into questioning at coruscant. Vos refused then Kolar brought him down with a single slash then demanded he yeild. Vos ran away because he was far weaker, not because he was holding back(I can post scans if you'd like)

the only one holding back there was Agen Kolar.

Quinlan Vos would have also most likely been holding back, he hadn't truly fallen to the darkside and I'll admit I was going off of memory, nd it might be helpful if you posted the rest of the encounter but I had remembered him attempting to flee at every opportunity.

Ventress only beat Fisto because she observed his fighting style before hand and Fisto was tired from fighting the droid and had fought many other fighters. Kenobi in the same state fought very well vs Ventress and Kenobi is far under Fisto at this point. So I see no reason why in a fair 1v1 with no circumstantieal advantge Fisto would lose to Ventress.

Ventress had observed his hand to hand technique and used it to ascertain what his lightsaber form would be, I find that to be a pretty weak advantage as any lightsaber practitioner should be able to determine their opponent's style immediately and it's not as if she would have had any real opportunity to make specific preperations against that style beforehand in the timeframe that she logically wouldn't have already covered. The book even suggesting that was a pretty weak plot point to be honest.

To what extent was Fisto fatigued?

And yes he is not as powerful as he once was. But he's no push over having fought well against Obi Wan Kenobi/Asajj Ventress and beating Eeth Koth/Ashoka Tano/Nahddar Vebb.

Fistos tooling of GG shows a incredible amount of skill on his part.

He isn't portrayed to be the juggernaut that he once was and he certainly isn't portrayed as approaching the formidability he possesses in the RotS novelisation which is the most comprehensive depiction of that duel.

Originally posted by noitseuq
It's entirely possible that they were both depowered, and as such both no longer as great relative to others such as Jedi like Kit Fisto.

I'd have to watch the show myself but the impression I get is that he's no longer portrayed to be particularly formidable.

He's not actually lost to anyone in a Saber duel except for Ventress. And that was on Dathomir, which is strong in the dark side.

He has however been put down/defeated by Telekinetic attacks. But hey Kenobi sent him flying like 50 feet and disarmed him of his remaining weapons with a Force Push in ROTS.

So in comparison to ROTS he's not been depowered. If you think Kenobi's been depowered, then you need to watch the episode "Revival." That episode probably showed his best Saber feat to date.

He also embarrassed Ventress in TCW movie in a pure Saber duel, which had her switching weapons from Jar Kai, to a Saber Staff. But she simply could not defeat him.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Fisto whirls his blade fast enough that its surrounding blurs seemingly create a ''cyclone'' of light. Neither Kenobi nor Maul has ever fought that fast.

To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light. Resistant to the energy outpourings of a lightsaber, the phrik alloy staffs were potent weapons, but like any weapon they needed to find their target, and Kit simply wasn't allowing that.

-Labyrinth of Evil

Lol.

Could be top 20, could be top 100, could be top 1000, could be top 1000000, we simply have no way of knowing what the writer had in mind but what we can say, as I pointed out, is that it clearly refers to a group with such a vaste range of skill levels that both Yoda and Saesee Tinn belong to it. It's basically meaningless with respect to how we would commonly refer to someone or a group as being among "the best".

It should be noted that when the 3jedi are stated to be amongest the greatest, there mentoined in the same sentence as Windu. Meaning from MY POV top 20-30 is pretty obvious.

Your opinion.

You dont find it impressive?. Then what is a impressive feat to you?.

Arguable hyperbole and are you sure you're not mixing up your Jedi?

Nah.

Fisto did the same thing, though.

But you cannot be sure of the extent to which they were holding back their powers and we don't know the exact nature of the sparring battle, and it's ultimately meaningless as we know from how they both perform in a real combat situation that they're on entirely different levels.

Tiin would be holding back aswell. So would Windu. So the feat is impressive as both would be holding back. Again I cant prove a negative on who held back more. From whats been shown they both held back.

Not as easy as Kolar. Kolar had him in down in 1panel. Fact remains only Windu and Dooku have done that well.

And sure!.

The only one holding back was Kolar.

Quinlan Vos would have also most likely been holding back, he hadn't truly fallen to the darkside and I'll admit I was going off of memory, nd it might be helpful if you posted the rest of the encounter but I had remembered him attempting to flee at every opportunity.

He hadint. But he was trying to knock Kolar down as shown above/defeat him "we should not be enemies, but it is too late for anything else!"

Ventress had observed his hand to hand technique and used it to ascertain what his lightsaber form would be, I find that to be a pretty weak advantage as any lightsaber practitioner should be able to determine their opponent's style immediately and it's not as if she would have had any real opportunity to make specific preperations against that style beforehand in the timeframe that she logically wouldn't have already covered. The book even suggesting that was a pretty weak plot point to be honest.

To what extent was Fisto fatigued?

Ventress had studied Kits moves and he was injured from fighting the droid, I believe. He was injured though and tired. And Kenobi did mad well Vs Ventress well tired from fighting enemies aswell and Fisto>Kenobi at that point, so yeah.

He isn't portrayed to be the juggernaut that he once was and he certainly isn't portrayed as approaching the formidability he possesses in the RotS novelisation which is the most comprehensive depiction of that duel.

Honestly I agree with this. HOWEVER with new information out as much as I dislike it, I have no choice but to agree with it and abid by it.

Originally posted by noitseuq
Obi-Wan has the better defensive feats against overwhelming speed, namely his performance against Grievous where he's shown to be directly defending against an onslought of attacks approaching 20 strikes per second, and Kit alone out of the two of them has proven such an utter inability to defend against Sidious.

Grievous is not Sidious. And Kit has beat the same Grievous that Obi Wan has beat. And while you can say that Kit beat him through a more offensive approach whereas Obi Wan beat him through a more defensive one, it would suggest that Kit is faster, more aggressive, and more skilled than Grievous, considering he forced Grievous on the defensive. So Obi Wan defending against Grievous speed is irrelevant when Sidious has easily slaughtered someone who is faster and more a skilled than the general. Defending against Grievous speed doesn't mean he can defend against Sidious's speed, and it certainly doesn't mean he can react faster than Fisto.

Originally posted by noitseuq
There also seems to be this idea that Kit is substantially quicker than Obi-Wan, based on what appear to be highly hyperbolic statements from a single source, as well as based upon how the two seemed to compare much earlier in Obi-Wan's career when he was still pretty inexperienced

Nope, I base my opinion on their performances against Grievous. All throughout TCW, Obi wan was either forced to flee or forced on the defensive by Grievous's speed even when he finally defeated him in ROTS, whereas Kit in turn was able to force Grievous on the defensive during his very first try.

And what do you mean Kenobi was inexperienced in CD? He had already been a knight for years by this point (hell, even his own padawan was close to becoming a knight by this point), and according to Obi Wan's own musings Kit seemed to come off as the faster force user. I seriously doubt Kenobi dramatically increased in speed in the span of, what, three years. He certainly hasn't shown he became faster than Kit based on his consistent struggling against Grievous all throughout TCW series.

Originally posted by noitseuq
Or if you want to be more exact, which would logically require that he have certain attributes that lend itself well to combat against multiple opponents from both a defensive and offensive standpoint that wouldn't necessarily translate into combat against a single individual (assuming it is indeed specialized for combat against multiple opponents), such as careful positioning and movement aimed to keep his opponents from successfully mounting a well coordinated attack and effectively functioning as a team in any capacity, keeping them seperated and off balance and using angles that allow him to efficiently deal with each unit of the team individually. I think you'll find it difficult to make a case that it's a matter of the form being so advanced that it's even capable of being used against multiple enemies, when it's considered the simplest form and the first one that padawan learners train in that has never been documented to be particularly impressive or desirable at higher levels in the source material.

Sounds like Kit's form would require an awful lot of coordination for it to be one of the most simplest forms. That's why I don't put too much emphasis on forms because sometimes the authors who describe them do not make any sense of them. They are just writers, not swordsmen.

For example, according to Dooku, his form, Makashi, relies more on foot work and precision that "needless acrobats." But Ventress, who uses the same form, constantly uses acrobats throughout her fights, so is she really using Makashi or not? lol

That's why I rather go by feats. And feat-wise, Kenobi hasn't done anything to suggest that his defensive speed is greater than that of Kit's, which would be the issue when facing an opponent as fast as Sidious, and he's also done absolutely nothing to indicate that his defensive speed can match Sidious's striking speed for very long.

Originally posted by noitseuq
The form that specializes in defence that he's used to great effect in defending against far more physically impressive combatants like Grievous and Anakin.

Far more physically impressive than who, Kit? Anakin is more physically impressive than Kit, I'd agree there, but Grievous definitely isn't considering that he was the one being forced on the defensive by Kit's own physicality. But non of that is irrelevant here any way, because neither Grievous nor Anakin are as physically impressive as Sidious.

Originally posted by noitseuq
you haven't established that Sidious is that much faster than Obi-Wan. Kit Fisto himself was not entirely blitzed by Sidious, exchanges were made and while he was quickly overwhelmed there was ample opportunity for better defensive measures to be taken that a better defensive swordsman may well have.

I have. You haven't established that that Obi Wan can defend against Sidious attacks for very long. And yes Kit blocked a couple of blows from Sidious, who was simultaneously crossing blades with Windu, before being quickly overwhelmed.

So what better defensive measures can be taken when one's speed is just not up to par? Explain. I mean, it sounds good, but it proves nothing.

Originally posted by noitseuq
you have in no way established that Soresu has any holes in its defence that would be negated by any other form in the first place.

Other than his speed being sufficient to penetrate a hole in soresu that is being utilized by someone who is far inferior to him in speed, there is a source that says djem so is an ideal form for penetrating Soresu's weakness assuming both users are equal in skill and speed, and in this case, Sidious overshadow's Kenobi in both by a considerable margin. I'll find the source later. It was posted by Galan007.

Originally posted by noitseuq
The advantage of one more Jedi but the disadvantage of all but one of those Jedi being able to survive against Sidious for more than a few seconds. You cannot say the same thing about this team. Obviously Sidious is extremely fast and it was through both his speed and positioning himself away from the other attackers that enabled him to deal with them before the others could effectively engage him.

And he can't do the same to this team?

BTW, both Kit and Windu were close enough to land a strike on Sidious while he was focused on Kolar and Tiin.

Originally posted by noitseuq
I'll again remind you that this team has not proven itself to have such weak defensive links as the likes of those three Jedi and are proven to be of a far higher calibre in this situation.

Higher Calibre, how?

If Sidious targets Obi Wan first, it should take Sidious a couple of blows to down him if Sidious attacks with his full fury, and I'm not seeing how Dooku or Maul can prevent this if Windu and Kit couldn't prevent Sidious from downing two (not one) sabermasters. Unless you can prove that Obi Wan's reaction speed is far beyond the two masters, and greater than both Windu and Fisto's offensive speed.

Originally posted by noitseuq
Prove it.

I thought you knew what I was talking about?

"Each Jedi connects to the Force in his or her own way, and Tiin's Force abilities allowed him to focus his thoughts to control his starfighter even while traveling through hyperspace. While flying at lightspeed, Tiin had no need of a nav computer. He increased the Sharp Spiral's performance by taking hyperspace shortcuts and flying dangerously close to mass shadows."(The New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels)

While I do consider this to be a bit over the top, I'm not throwing out the fact that Tiin is meant to have exceptional reaction speed, that I also believe Obi Wan notes that is greater than his, so I'm not going to assume Obi Wan's reaction speed is so far ahead of Tiin's when he has done nothing to show for it. And if Obi Wan is able to last a great deal longer than Tiin, despite the fact that Palpatine took out Kolar and then Tiin both before Tiin was able to react, then that would suggest that Obi Wan is miles ahead of Tiin in reaction speed, which, as I said, he has shown nothing to prove it.

Originally posted by noitseuq
Prove it.

I have. You're just ignoring it. Floyd Mayweather, a professional boxer who is good at defense, wouldn't be able to dodge a bullet any better than I would. His skill in defense vs mine would be irrelevant when it comes to such speed, just as Obi Wan's skill in defense vs the masters would be irrelevant.

Now can you prove that Obi Wan has what it takes to last long against someone who is far faster than him and the people whose speed he has struggled with before? Sorry but struggling against Grievous' speed doesn't help your argument, considering Sidious downed someone who is even faster than Grievous in a couple of blows, while simultaneously crossing blades with Windu.

Originally posted by noitseuq
I fail to see why tertiary information based on the subjective interpretations of writers should be blindly accepted as canon.

I fail to see why it shouldn't, especially when it describes what we see in the film basically. I mean you willingly place a no limits fallacy on Kenobi just because he is labeled by writer as a "master of soresu."

Originally posted by noitseuq
Not that they even establish that it was entirely based on speed that Sidious was forcing Mace back and that Mace was able to defend himself, which was your claim.

Speed and skill. Of course it's not speed alone. It would take skill as well, if that's what you mean. It's not like Sidious was just swinging his blade really fast in sloppy sequences.

And no, my claim was that Windu was forced on the defensive, and defended himself better than what Obi Wan would manage, despite his preferred form not being as suitable for defense as Kenobi's. And this is because Windu is a lot faster at reacting. You claimed that it wouldn't be a matter of how fast Kenobi can react, but a matter of his preferred form being more suitable for defense. So if you don't believe that Sidious striking speed is beyond that of Kenobi's defensive speed, then that would suggest that you believe Obi Wan would do better than Windu at defending himself, since, according to you, it wouldn't be a matter of speed, but more a matter of which form is suitable for defense. And I don't buy that. If Kenobi's speed is not up to par, then he doesn't stand a chance.

Stop placing a no limits fallacy on Kenobi's defensive speed just because he is a master of soresu. His skill in defense would only be irrelevant if he is fighting someone in his speed class.

Originally posted by noitseuq
Again, your personal interpretation.

No, the movies portrayal. Tell me how Windu wasn't at a huge advantage. Tell me, if Windu was truly an equal to Sidious in speed, plus being a master of one of the most aggressive forms, how he, with the aid of Kit, was unable to land a hit on Sidious before Sidious was able to down Kolar and Tiin. Explain how Windu could not gain any kind of advantage against Sidious, and why he was taken out of his element as an offensive fighter.

Originally posted by noitseuq
As I stated it's not so simple when one opponent is significantly superior to another which Dooku arguably is in this case, and that Dooku could potentially last longer by stifling Sidious's offense with the threat of his own.

Dooku wouldn't be any more of a threat than Windu was at the beginning of his and Palpatine's duel. Dooku's offense wouldn't come to play when it comes to someone who is far stronger, more skilled, a lot more aggressive and faster than he is. He would be forced on the defensive. If he does try to take an offensive approach, he would risk being slashed or thrown off balance by leaving an opening in his defense.

And regarding Lucas statement:
I don't see how Lucas's statement is being taken out of context. Lucas wasn't discussing Sidious's superiority in overall combat. His statement had more to do with the b-teams inability to threaten Sidious in their fight with him, and their fight with Sidious didn't involve the use of offensive force powers, it was a saber match, in which they failed to provide any type of threat to Sidious, and Lucas's reason for this was: "you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete."

Again, he wasn't discussing Sidious' overall ability, he was responding to why the B-team were not a threat to him in their saber duel with him. The context of Lucas's statement revolved around their particular duel, not Sidious superiority in an all out fight.

Originally posted by noitseuq
Not that they even establish that it was entirely based on speed that Sidious was forcing Mace back and that Mace was able to defend himself, which was your claim.

Speed and skill. Of course wasn't speed alone. It would take skill as well, if that's what you mean. It's not like Sidious was just swinging his blade really fast in sloppy sequences.

And no, my claim was that Windu was forced on the defensive, and defended himself better than what Obi Wan would manage, despite his preferred form not being as suitable for defense as Kenobi's. And this is because Windu is a lot faster at reacting. You claimed that it wouldn't be a matter of how fast Kenobi can react, but a matter of his preferred form being more suitable for defense. So if you don't believe that Sidious striking speed is beyond that of Kenobi's defensive speed, then that would suggest that you believe Obi Wan would do better than Windu at defending himself, since, according to you, it wouldn't be a matter of speed, but more a matter of which form is suitable for defense. And I don't buy that. If Kenobi's speed is not up to par, then he doesn't stand a chance.

Stop placing a no limits fallacy on Kenobi's defensive speed just because he is a master of soresu. His skill in defense would only be irrelevant if he is fighting someone in his speed class.

Originally posted by noitseuq
Again, your personal interpretation.

No, the movies portrayal. Tell me how Windu wasn't at a huge advantage. Tell me, if Windu was truly an equal to Sidious in speed, plus being a master of one of the most aggressive forms, how he, with the aid of Kit, was unable to land a hit on Sidious before Sidious was able to down Kolar and Tiin. Explain how Windu could not gain any kind of advantage against Sidious, and why he was taken out of his element as an offensive fighter.

Originally posted by noitseuq
As I stated it's not so simple when one opponent is significantly superior to another which Dooku arguably is in this case, and that Dooku could potentially last longer by stifling Sidious's offense with the threat of his own.

Dooku wouldn't be any more of a threat than Windu was at the beginning of his and Palpatine's duel. Dooku's offense wouldn't come to play when it comes to someone who is far stronger, more skilled, a lot more aggressive and faster than he is. He would be forced on the defensive. If he does try to take an offensive approach, he would risk being slashed or thrown off balance by leaving an opening in his defense.

And regarding Lucas statement:
I don't see how Lucas's statement is being taken out of context. Lucas wasn't discussing Sidious's superiority in overall combat. His statement had more to do with the b-teams inability to threaten Sidious in their fight with him, and their fight with Sidious didn't involve the use of offensive force powers, it was a saber match, in which they failed to provide any type of threat to Sidious, and Lucas's reason for this was: "you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete."

Again, he wasn't discussing Sidious' overall ability, he was responding to why the B-team were not a threat to him in their saber duel with him. The context of Lucas's statement revolved around their particular duel, not Sidious superiority in an all out fight.

Grievous is not Sidious.

Sure he's not but the point I'm making is that in the absence of a direct comparison in defensive ability between Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan's defensive showing against Grievous is a high showing that Kit Fisto has yet to match, in the same way that Kit Fisto's defensive display against Sidious is a low showing that Obi-Wan cannot be said to have sunk to. You cannot exactly quantify the two but you seem to be basing assumptions on the idea that you can. Due to what appears to be bias and using Sidious as a focal point in your argument you seem to think the default position should be to treat the two the same, to question what Obi-Wan has definitively proven that makes him so different from Kit and what does he have to offer Sidious that Kit does not, when I'm sure if you were going by a more holistic and impartial examination of the evidence you would see that the two showings simply act to strongly suggest that Obi-Wan is the superior defensive swordsman, a claim that's corroborated by other evidence, and if you changed your perspective I'm sure the fact that Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto are two entirely different entities would be more clearly considered when phrasing your argument. You've based the idea that Obi-Wan is the same defensive entity as Kit (when faced against Sidious) on numerous assumptions that we'll go over shortly and you haven't truly addressed the evidence that strongly suggests that Obi-Wan is far better equipped defensively than Kit is.

And Kit has beat the same Grievous that Obi Wan has beat.

Regarding comparisons between the TCW cartoon and the movies/rest of the EU, as I said earlier I can't personally be certain until I've watched it for myself (and we can leave it at that for now) but from what little I've seen and what I've heard from other people, as I said I get the impression it opts for the cartoonish and the wondrous over realism and a thoughtful consideration of canon; it's taking me pretty long to get through the cartoon myself but perhaps what may potentially be a more honest approach from you or some genuine feedback from somebody else could shed more light on the matter. Until then we can leave it that, but I will remind you that I am personally not convinced that valid comparisons between Kit and Obi-Wan based on their fights against Grievous from such contrasting sources can be made, and I'm not sure you are either.

And while you can say that Kit beat him through a more offensive approach whereas Obi Wan beat him through a more defensive one, it would suggest that Kit is faster, more aggressive, and more skilled than Grievous, considering he forced Grievous on the defensive.

Assuming Kit Fisto was displaying superiority over Grievous (nevermind whether or not he really was forcing Grievous on the defensive, whether forcing an opponent on the defensive with respect to their styles denotes superiority particularly with respect to the shifts in momentum of a battle, or whether you may be basing this on other aspects of their fight), you cannot attribute that superiority to anything other than the entire accumulation of their respective, relevant skills (what is true for the whole is not neccessarily true for its parts) based on the display of superiority alone and at best it might suggest that's he's faster, or that he's more skilled, but it certainly doesn't definitively establish it. Its a direct showing of how all of their respective, relevant skills compare, not individual elements that make up their overall skill.

So Obi Wan defending against Grievous speed is irrelevant when Sidious has easily slaughtered someone who is faster and more a skilled than the general. Defending against Grievous speed doesn't mean he can defend against Sidious's speed, and it certainly doesn't mean he can react faster than Fisto.

Sure it doesn't but the point is that it's a fine showing of defensive ability that would suggest he wouldn't be as defensively inadequate as someone without such a showing. Obviously you have to draw a line somewhere when regarding who exactly Sidious can easily overwhelm with a lightsaber and who he cannot (we can say this may lie somewhere between Kit Fisto and Mace Windu) but I think a different approach should be taken than the one you are taking with these comparisons, which rely on assumptions based on direct comparisons between wildly disparate sources, and how individual elements of overall ability are reflected in contests of overall ability and how they stylistically measure in different scenarios.

And what do you mean Kenobi was inexperienced in CD? He had already been a knight for years by this point (hell, even his own padawan was close to becoming a knight by this point), and according to Obi Wan's own musings Kit seemed to come off as the faster force user. I seriously doubt Kenobi dramatically increased in speed in the span of, what, three years.

Inexperienced by comparison. He was still much earlier in his growth than Kit had been, and would have progressed by a greater proportion, assuming similar learning rates. You may undermine those three years but I don't believe it would be a stretch to say that he saw more action in that war than he had in his entire earlier career as a Jedi and while his training wouldn't have likely changed all that much he would have gained drastically more experience. Anakin certainly improved drastically during that time and I'm not saying that Obi-Wan would have progressed at such a great rate but at the same time I don't think you can just be so quick to undermine the improvements three years of war experience would bring.

Sounds like Kit's form would require an awful lot of coordination for it to be one of the most simplest forms. That's why I don't put too much emphasis on forms because sometimes the authors who describe them do not make any sense of them. They are just writers, not swordsmen.

For example, according to Dooku, his form, Makashi, relies more on foot work and precision that "needless acrobats." But Ventress, who uses the same form, constantly uses acrobats throughout her fights, so is she really using Makashi or not? lol

I admit that there may be certain inconsistencies (wasn't aware Ventress used Makashi btw), and certainly there are times when a person's form may be a more periphery element of that character, but I don't think that justifies ignoring the forms entirely, particularly given how big a role Soresu is depicted as being in Obi-Wan's style and his strengths in the EU. Aside from Mace Windu (and I guess you could argue the other Vaapad users to a smaller extent) and maybe Dooku and Yoda, there isn't a character who's form has been as prevalently established as Obi-Wan's, and there's certainly no character who's style as a fighter is so strongly identified by it.

Obi-Wan's use of the form and his ability with it has been detailed to such an extent in the EU that I think we can say it acts as a very good indication of his personal ability and approach to fighting.

That's why I rather go by feats. And feat-wise, Kenobi hasn't done anything to suggest that his defensive speed is greater than that of Kit's, which would be the issue when facing an opponent as fast as Sidious, and he's also done absolutely nothing to indicate that his defensive speed can match Sidious's striking speed for very long.

Again, if you examine the whole (defensive ability) rather than an indvidual element of the whole (defensive speed) you'll have a stronger comparison. Obi-Wan's style works in a way that his speed doesn't have to be anywhere near as great as his opponent's, and by the same token Sidious has not demonstrated the ability to overwhelm a swordsman of Obi-Wan's defensive calibre.

Other than his speed being sufficient to penetrate a hole in soresu that is being utilized by someone who is far inferior to him in speed, there is a source that says djem so is an ideal form for penetrating Soresu's weakness assuming both users are equal in skill and speed, and in this case, Sidious overshadow's Kenobi in both by a considerable margin. I'll find the source later. It was posted by Galan007.

Spoiler:
Post it now pls.

Higher Calibre, how?

Superior performances and higher up in the hierarchy in the wider, more credible realms of canon, and Obi-Wan certainly has the greater backing in the context of defense.

If Sidious targets Obi Wan first, it should take Sidious a couple of blows to down him if Sidious attacks with his full fury, and I'm not seeing how Dooku or Maul can prevent this if Windu and Kit couldn't prevent Sidious from downing two (not one) sabermasters. Unless you can prove that Obi Wan's reaction speed is far beyond the two masters, and greater than both Windu and Fisto's offensive speed.

Different scenarios, they will likely be positioned differently, higher calibre of opponent for the most part, and you have not established that Obi-Wan will be so succeptible. I am in no way more obligated to prove that Obi-Wan has greater reaction speed than you are to prove that he doesn't (not being able or not having to prove a negative is a myth, you can phrase anything to sound like a negative, and in this case I can just as easily ask you to prove that the two Jedis' reaction speed was as good or anywhere near as good as Obi-Wan's); both assertions remain unproven but what I am directly challenging is the assumption that he can.

Obi-Wan's reaction speed doesn't necessarily have to be vastly superior to Agen's and Saesee's, it simply needs to be adequate to at least respond to Sidious's attacks as Kit and Mace's was. Kit was let down by a combination of factors that would have included an area that on paper Obi-Wan is far superior to him in.

I thought you knew what I was talking about?

"Each Jedi connects to the Force in his or her own way, and Tiin's Force abilities allowed him to focus his thoughts to control his starfighter even while traveling through hyperspace. While flying at lightspeed, Tiin had no need of a nav computer. He increased the Sharp Spiral's performance by taking hyperspace shortcuts and flying dangerously close to mass shadows."(The New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels)

While I do consider this to be a bit over the top, I'm not throwing out the fact that Tiin is meant to have exceptional reaction speed, that I also believe Obi Wan notes that is greater than his, so I'm not going to assume Obi Wan's reaction speed is so far ahead of Tiin's when he has done nothing to show for it.

Which is most likely an ability that only manifests itself in that one scenario or clearly not compatible with existing canon, otherwise if you assume it's reflective of his reflexes in combat you have to reconcile that information with what appears to be him being thoroughly outperformed by both Mace Windu and Kit Fisto in that regard, which would suggest that it's utterly ordinary at the top levels while also removing anything unique about the ability to Saesee, so it's fundamentally meaningless however you look at it and would suggest that upper tier Jedi were ordinarily capable of godly feats of reaction speed that is clearly contradicted in wider canon.

I have. You're just ignoring it. Floyd Mayweather, a professional boxer who is good at defense, wouldn't be able to dodge a bullet any better than I would. His skill in defense vs mine would be irrelevant when it comes to such speed, just as Obi Wan's skill in defense vs the masters would be irrelevant.

I understand the reasoning, you just have yet to prove that Sidious is the gun to Obi-Wan's Floyd Mayweather.

I fail to see why it shouldn't, especially when it describes what we see in the film basically.

It describes one of many interpretations one could draw from the films. We shouldn't blindly accept it because the primary elements alone cannot be said to be perfectly compatible with one another; there are numerous inconsistencies with facts and figures and events and it simply doesn't make sense to assume that tertiary elements of the source material which are even less significant will fit into a cohesive whole. There are numerous descriptions of that battle in the reference guides and without even looking at them I already know there will be precise differences in how they are presented and those tertiary elements are not a cooperative effort to chronicle a shared vision, they are not what the reference material was intended to describe, but rather the writer's own interpetation that he is sharing to add flavour to the text.

I mean you willingly place a no limits fallacy on Kenobi just because he is labeled by writer as a "master of soresu."

I'm not saying there's no chance in hell that Sidious couldn't do the same to Obi-Wan but that simply I don't believe that's what the evidence points to and that we shouldn't ignore what Obi-Wan's mastery of Soresu would suggest about his greater on paper capability to survive against an attack from Sidious.

And regarding Lucas statement:
I don't see how Lucas's statement is being taken out of context. Lucas wasn't discussing Sidious's superiority in overall combat. His statement had more to do with the b-teams inability to threaten Sidious in their fight with him, and their fight with Sidious didn't involve the use of offensive force powers, it was a saber match, in which they failed to provide any type of threat to Sidious, and Lucas's reason for this was: "you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete."

Again, he wasn't discussing Sidious' overall ability, he was responding to why the B-team were not a threat to him in their saber duel with him. The context of Lucas's statement revolved around their particular duel, not Sidious superiority in an all out fight

You can describe what they were doing in many different ways, but as far as how it pertains to the point George Lucas was making and the scenario we were presented with, what we were seeing was a fight, plain and simple, and a lightsaber duel is the particular shape that fight took. Jedi and Sith don't deal with such constraints when they fight with each other, George Lucas was making an observation from the context of how elements proceeded in the story that the same Jedi and Sith inhabit. Your interpretation simply doesn't make sense.