Originally posted by Nephthys
Anakin isn't as powerful as Dooku. Hes a comparable duelist, but the Count is clearly superior in the ways of the Force.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes he does. Those are ANH Vader, not TFU Vader.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Besides, that was just a clone and he DID beat him.
Obi-Wan beat Maul in TPM as well. You're not gonna argue that Obi-Wan was Maul's better, are you?
Originally posted by Nephthys
The one that show him tearing apart cathedrals, throwing around giant platforms and fighting Galen mother****ing Marek.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah except it's not just about his ROTS Victory over the Count anymore. It's his consistent stalemating against the Count during TCW.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So it is only the PT Elite (Yoda, Sidious and possibly Mace) who are more powerful than Skywalker.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
See above. Also Skywalker was no more familiar with Dooku than Dooku was with Skywalker.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You go on about people wanking over Anakin's defeat over Dooku, yet never fail to rub in Kenobi's defeat over Anakin. But the fact is consistent showings make it absolutely clear Skywalker = Count Dooku > Kenobi.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
This I will agree with, that Skywalker's general Command of the Force should have been a lot better than it was.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't know. Dooku's incredible command of the force never seemed to work.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
- Durge- So you agree that feat does put Anakin in the "powerful force user" category.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
- Skywalker is no Yoda. But dominating Ventress like that is only something the elite PT Power houses can do.
Even Dark Council members can be this damn powerful. I recall Nox doing this to Thanaton. I guess that Nox will eat Ventress for breakfast because Thanaton himself is much stronger then Ventress.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
- Dooku- If your referring to the Tatooine fight, Dooku floored Skywaler a couple of times, but even then was really struggling to outright defeat him. And that was pretty early in the Clone Wars.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
-Mortis- What happened is confirmed canon.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yet for all the potential he didn't tap he was still easily the 3rd most Powerful Jedi in the Order, and a peer to One of the Most Powerful Jedi in the Order's history, and now an even More Powerful Sith Lord.
As far as that remark about Dooku is concerned, I tend to take it less seriously now in the light of latest updates.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Look! We need to realize that Dooku is no longer a BIG THING in the mythos.
When did this happen?
It seems whilst I see Anakin stalemating/defeating Dooku as a hugely impressive feat for Anakin, you seem to see it as proof that Dooku is no longer a big thing.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I strongly disagree.
I meant in the movie era.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
But they have shared history and Anakin benefited from it.
I don't see how Anakin benefited from that anymore than Dooku did. Besides Anakin was doing well against Dooku in only their encounter (TCW movie). Then he only grew more powerful during TCW. So their later fights reflect this without any hinting towards the "I can beat you because I know you so well" reasoning.
That would apply better to Anakin vs Kenobi.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I attempt to control "unreasonable Anakin wanking" by using the Obi-Wan card. Just because Anakin overcame Dooku, doesn't means he can defeat any other powerful individual barring the 3 names you mentioned.
Again I meant the movie era. In any era there's obviously Luke, Caedus, Abeloth, Starkiller(possibly), Vitiatie. There might be a few more elites, but there will still only be an elite few Imho.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes! Now that you have noticed this shortcoming in Anakin, maybe you can now realize the possibility of him loosing to other powerful individuals.
Yes there are an Elite few Powerful beings that can take him. But make no mistake, he is Extremely Powerful, even when looking throughout the ages.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku's abilities are formidable but he is not exceptional in the grand picture. Dooku did benefit from his abilities against Anakin in several encounters; Dooku was eventually tasked to lure Anakin to the dark side by his Sith Master and he fell due to this plan.
Even if we accept Anakin's victory over Dooku was circumstantial, it's still clear Anakin is a peer to Dooku. And I don't think it's unreasonable at all to see Anakin as being More Powerful than Dooku by ROTS.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anakin is a powerful individual on the basis of his holistic picture; certainly "above average" at minimum.
Lol He's way above average by any standards or in any generation.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I disagree!Even Dark Council members can be this damn powerful. I recall Nox doing this to Thanaton. I guess that Nox will eat Ventress for breakfast because Thanaton himself is much stronger then Ventress.
You may be underestimating Ventress. She's tooled Council Level members like Fisto (amongst the most celebrated swordsman in history), can easily challenge and defeat multiple Jedi simultaneously and has impresisve TK feats too.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Weren't you referring to this encounter? This encounter is decent indication of limitations of Dooku. I understand that sand wasn't going to hurt Anakin but Dooku didn't seem to possess much options to use against Anakin which validates the opinion of Yoda about him that "much to learn you still have."
That's what Yoda states to him in Battle. But when Dooku's not there he admits to his fellow Jedi that Dooku was the Temple's "Strongest Student" and "Most Learned in the Ways of the Force."
Yoda has a very high opinion of Dooku's abilites.
If you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with The Emperor, then I'd say you have to be Mace, Yoda or Anakin to compete with Count Dooku.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The "how" factor is important. The events of this episode are not documented so we are left with questions and self-interpretations.
It's on the official website.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
PT era Jedi Order is lacking in power factor; select few names do not reflect upon the competency of the Order on the whole. Therefore, Skywalker ranking no. 3 in this setting doesn't surprises me and is not a big deal.
You honestly believe PT era was one of the weaker era of Jedi? When Lucas himself states that was the Jedi in their Prime?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As far as that remark about Dooku is concerned, I tend to take it less seriously now in the light of latest updates.
I don't see why. Dooku is one of the elite few who can even fight Yoda. And he's more powerful than Maul. And even Maul has been named on numerous occasions as one of the most well trained and powerful Sith Lords ever.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Anakin is more powerful than Dooku... not telekinetically, but in general, he is.
His Force Mastery sucks. He has enormous power, but he can't use it like Dooku can. Dooku is his superior in Force powers, he's consistently gotten the better of Skywalker through the Force.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove there's a difference.
I don't need to. That quote can apply to TFU Vader just as much as it can RotS Vader.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
...Obi-Wan beat Maul in TPM as well. You're not gonna argue that Obi-Wan was Maul's better, are you?
I didn't say that. I said he beat him. Which he did.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Moving that battlestation at least matches collapsing a cathedral.
No it doesn't.
Seriously though, in what way is Vader a 'shadow' of Anakin? Vader has a superior grasp of telekinesis and Force powers and he's no less skilled as a duelist.
And how do you think Anakin will beat Marek? What possible way could he beat him?
1. I think ''sucks'' is taking it too far, but I agree that Dooku is Anakin's better in terms of Force usage.
2. 😐
By that logic, the Vader that Maul fought in battle, which took place a little before TFU, would've been more powerful than the one in TFU, and Anakin is Maul's better in every way.
You're grasping at straws.
3. That's completely irrelevant to point out.
4. It clearly does. The station can fit at least ten starfighters not to mention how thick it is.
5. Eh. As of ANH, Vader isn't as powerful telekinetically, not as fast and far, far off as a duelist.
I like Vader a lot though, and I rank him on Dooku's level as of RotJ.
6. Just overpower him through a duel.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
DP, the fact that you've resolved to ignore KT and yet continue to entertain posts from SWL is... perplexing.
Not talked much to SWL tbh. Whilst I've spent hours and hours trying to talk sense to KT.
Atm just attempting to get SWL to admit that his line of logic about Skywalker and Dooku not being all that powerful is clearly faulty.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
1. I think ''sucks'' is taking it too far, but I agree that Dooku is Anakin's better in terms of Force usage.2. 😐
By that logic, the Vader that Maul fought in battle, which took place a little before TFU, would've been more powerful than the one in TFU, and Anakin is Maul's better in every way.
You're grasping at straws.
3. That's completely irrelevant to point out.
4. It clearly does. The station can fit at least ten starfighters not to mention how thick it is.
5. Eh. As of ANH, Vader isn't as powerful telekinetically, not as fast and far, far off as a duelist.
I like Vader a lot though, and I rank him on Dooku's level as of RotJ.
6. Just overpower him through a duel.
1. Well just look at how much better Luke is than him in every way. Luke grasps techniques with amazing swiftness and pulls abilities right out his ass constantly and he has basically no training at all, picking everything he's learned up on the fly. Meanwhile Anakin was trained by actual Jedi and is nowhere near his level. With the amount of power Anakin wields, he comes off as one of the most incompetent Jedi in history.
2. I don't understand the point you're making. Did you write these out of order?
3. Hence why I said 'besides.'
4. Nope. All Anakin did was tip it and even then he has the repulserlifts to help him AND he showed immense strain.
5. Vader is more powerful telekinetically, is a superior duelist and while he might not be as fast is immensely strong, has better actualised power and has his armor to protect him.
6. Bullshit. Marek would rip his head off.
1. Fair.
2. The simple way is. You say that TFU Vader is better than ANH Vader since ANH Vader was a shadow of his former self (ie his TFU self). But then I can say that the Vader whom Maul fought would've been more powerful than TFU Vader since they fought before TFU occured.
3. So we agree that Maul is above Vader of that point?
4. So? Look at how big it is for christs sake.
5. Superior duelist? Seriously? Not even as of RotJ is he as good a duelist as Anakin, let alone as of ANH.
6. Like he did Shaak Ti and the other random Jedi?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not talked much to SWL tbh. Whilst I've spent hours and hours trying to talk sense to KT.Atm just attempting to get SWL to admit that his line of logic about Skywalker and Dooku not being all that powerful is clearly faulty.
Your masochism is noted. May God have mercy on your soul.
Originally posted by Nephthys
1. Well just look at how much better Luke is than him in every way. Luke grasps techniques with amazing swiftness and pulls abilities right out his ass constantly and he has basically no training at all, picking everything he's learned up on the fly. Meanwhile Anakin was trained by actual Jedi and is nowhere near his level. With the amount of power Anakin wields, he comes off as one of the most incompetent Jedi in history.
It seems the Jedi actually held him back. Always teaching him to restrain his power. No one held Luke back, and Marek was obviously taught to go all out from day 1.
Still, Skywalker reached Saber Mastery pretty quickly.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Its less illogical than to think that the Vader in TFU is less powerful than RotS Anakin when the former displays massively better feats and fights evenly someone hugely superior to Anakin.Theres nothing indicating that he did not diminish between TFU and ANH.
The concept that Vader was weaker than he used to be is ancient history. Multiple sources depict him as being one of the most powerful Sith Lords even as of ANH.
Starkiller is not hugely superior to Anakin. No one is hugely superior to Anakin if we consider his top showings in ROTS. Not even Yoda could pwn Dooku in 30 seconds. Furthermore throughout the Clone Wars he consistently puts Tyranus on the ropes.
Even if you think Vader would defeat Dooku, you have to realize it would be a hell of a battle for both of them. And yet according to the novelization Anakin trivializes Dooku's power.
At this point I doubt even Sidious and Yoda could be considered 'hugely' superior to Anakin. This is further backed up by Mace stating that Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive. Meaning that he has the chops to compare to the top tier of the era i.e. Mace and Yoda.
Stating that Starkiller is 'hugely' more powerful than Anakin is insinuating that he's more powerful than Mace, Yoda, and even Sidious as of ROTS. I personally find this absurd.
You have to powerscale. I personally put Dooku at around Vader's level, perhaps a bit higher. And considering when Starkiller fought Vader it wasn't a stomp, he's around Vader's level as well. In fact when Anakin got in the zone he demolished Dooku with seemingly more ease than Starkiller defeating Dooku.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No he isn't because Yoda casually smashed two three hundred meter wide transports together in TCWs cartoon. And because Yoda matched the most powerful Dark Lord in history blow for blow in ROTS.
Also, Yoda isn't exclusive at managing to duel Sidious effectively. In addition, current year is 2013, and lot have changed in the mythos since 2005; I am not interested in "most powerful" touts.
By the way, if Anakin is really so strong as the feat (which you cited) seems to indicate then why the hell he wasn't able to overwhelm Dooku with his Force abilities?
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Anakin is confirmed to be above Kenobi in sabers and the force, and yet he lost. Why? Because of his mental state. This has already been addressed to death.
I have provided canonical description of this event and it doesn't supports your stance about this event.
Reality check: Sith use emotions to fuel their power.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Wut?
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You can google the url. I'm far too lazy to go find it.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Will you stop spewing the forums with this ground reality crap that you just pulled out of your dark gaping oraphis of an anus.
"There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe—the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don't get too involved in the parallel universe." (George Lucas)
"I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions." (George Lucas)
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You made that up. Anakin is ranked to be a tier 9 duelist when he is DS. He's top tier. So is Dooku considering he is stated multiple times to be on par with Mace.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No EU doesn't drift from the movies in that regard, because they can't. Lucas' word is law as far as canon goes. Anakin never surpassed Yoda or Sidious, but he was getting mighty close.
"They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions." (George Lucas)
The feat which you cited is inconsistent with Anakin's power progression arc. In addition, Episode III makes this clear:-
Sidious; Mace; Yoda > Anakin; Dooku; Obi-Wan
I am not sure if Anakin was mightily close to Yoda and Sidious as of RoTS because G-canon works do not indicate this to be the case. In-fact, Episode III clearly distinguishes Anakin and Obi-Wan from Yoda and Sidious in the contest of capabilities with the latter two being on a whole new level in comparison to others. Yoda forbade Obi-Wan to not confront Sidious for a reason but he was confident that Obi-Wan was strong enough to handle Anakin. No amount of argument from you is going to change the G-canon ground realities.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes. It's called a low end showing. Anakin's high end showings outweigh his shit ones. For example Anakin defeated Dooku but had a hard time with Barriss. That doesn't suggest that Barriss can even hold a candle to Dooku.
Also, Anakin's feat (cited by you) indicates that he shouldn't find it hard to overwhelm even Dooku with his Force abilities, but nope...Things are not adding up. I am correct that Anakin's feat (cited by you) is inconsistent with his power progression arc.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No.
And he didn't he was struggling emotionally with the prospect of murdering his father figure after just choking his pregnant wife. Oh right and his wife just called him out on murdering children.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It's not PIS if there are technological limitations involved.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Except if tomorrow Lucasarts released a codex entry that said Satele Shan ripped down an Imperial dreadnaught you wouldn't be like. 'Oh well that isn't in line with her showings in the game.' You'd be making Satele Shan vs. Yoda threads this very moment. Don't piss on my head and tell me its raining.
Here is a description of Satele's talents:-
Ax had no good answer to that, so she followed with something approaching obedience. The Grand Master had impressed with more than her telekinetic and telepathic skills. Her speed and decisiveness in combat were unbelievable—but she never once made a sound. Her face was calm, almost serene, as she slashed and hacked through the hexes. There was a tranquillity about her, almost a blissfulness, that spoke of an intimacy with violence Ax had not expected.
To the Sith, violence was an art form. To Master Satele, it seemed like life itself.
That didn't marry at all well with what Ax knew about the Jedi. Weren't they emotionless, self-righteous hypocrites who fought only when it suited their interests? Didn't they disdain passion and preach powerlessness to all who would listen and obey? For the first time, Ax saw that there could be strength in serenity, and steel beneath stillness. (Star Wars: Fatal Alliance)
AX was a Force-user (a Sith) by the way; powerful enough to control the deadly hexes.
