RotS Anakin vs Satele Shan (Hope trailer)

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You aren't even trying to give ground.

I have offered best possible explanation about Anakin's strengths and weaknesses thus far. Anakin's issue is not with his potential but his shortcoming in understanding the ways of the Force and this is why he is typically not as effective as he can be.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes she is. She's in the SWTOR era, which is enough for you to wank her from here to kingdom come. The fact that you would sit here and debate that Satele Shan has better TK feats and saber off of the Hope video is ludicrous.

You are disturbed by the fact that Satele's actions in Hope Cinematic Trailer are superior to anything Anakin have shown in his duels thus far. Learn to accept that their are Force-users in the mythos (in addition to Mace, Sidious and Yoda) who are Anakin's superior. This should not be a BIG DEAL and neither this diminishes Anakin's relative standing in the mythos. Try to roll with latest updates.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It's the way you fight me when you so clearly want to consen...I mean concede.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I create the mood for us to consummate our debate with furious sodomy.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Which is impressive. And something that has been hinted at since Yoda first said 'size matters not'.

When well-trained Force-users concentrate on an objective with extreme clarity and without external disturbance, they are capable of performing amazing actions in this kind of scenario. However, this level of concentration is not possible to accomplish in dueling scenarios.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes he is.

No, Dooku would, in raw sabers at least ravage Vader with his superior speed.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
A 747-400 has a 124 ton capacity compared to a weight of 487 tons.

A Lambda-class shuttle which is of comparable size has a cargo capacity of 80 tons. Using the same proportion of weight-cargo capacity a lambda class shuttle would weigh approximately 314 tons. But hey, let's say advanced tech makes a vessel half the size be able to carry that weight. That's still ~150 tons.

By the way, Maul moved an Eta-class shuttle which is lot smaller then Lambda class shuttle:-

Eta-class shuttle:-

2 crew
2 passengers

Lambda-class shuttle:-

8 crew
20 passengers

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Underestimation of Skywalker at its finest.

Pit Satele or Malgus against Dooku and watch the latter getting overwhelmed even in exchange of Force powers. In contrast, Anakin have never been able to dominate Dooku with his Force abilities but have relatively superior feats. My explanation makes sense that Anakin lacks in his understanding of the ways of the Force.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No it isn't. Because the Star Destroyer was already falling, Galen merely redirected it. Skywalker moved a stable platform over in the course of a few seconds. Galen took minutes to redirect the destroyer.

Also, TFU works are more realistic in depicting actions then those low-budget CW cartoons are.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No. Galen will lose to Anakin.

I guess that I am trying to reason about limitations of Anakin with a wrong person.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Not really remarkable, they are good but remarkable is a broad term.

Never in life, Malgus had been manhandled in such a humiliating manner as depicted in the Hope Cinematic Trailer and you think that Satele's actions are not remarkable. Fantastic.

If it was Anakin in Satele's place, you would be boasting about his incredible display of power at every given opportunity. Your double-standard is appalling.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Lol one of the options for the HoT when you get Orgus Din as a master is basically 'Uhh can I get Satele instead'

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I suppose. I consider the Cold War era different than the Second Great War era because there are years and years in between.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Wrong. Anakin is approaching that level by ROTS. Mace Windu hates Anakin and yet admits that one could make the argument that Anakin is stronger than not only himself, but Yoda.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
-snip-

You just said that movies made in '03-'05 didn't have technical limitations...you do realize they killed off members of the Jedi Council because it'd be too expensive to animate them right? The prequels have plenty of limitations. Compare Episode 3's CGI to Avatar for example.

Anyway this argument has grown stale. And rather than addressing my points, you elect to cherrypick canon for the sake of your argument. So concession accepted. Good day Legend.

^^^

X-Men movies had comparable budget levels and they still contain superior action sequences of characters depicted in them. Direction is not a forte of Lucas.

---

So your reaction is to bail out when you loose footing in a debate? I have addressed all of your points with sound evidence on my part. If my latest responses are not refuted properly then I will assume that some people have pre-determined mindset about certain things in Star Wars and they do not want to change their mindset even if evidence exists to the contrary.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As I said, its from back when Satele was a Knight in the war. She blasts through the blast door (heh) and then whoops a Dark Council members ass. Good for her.

Yes, good for her. This doesn't suggest that she could overpower Anakin's Force defenses.

Thats one feat.

Yet it happens to be one of the rare instances in the mythos where we can actually compare like, analogous showings. And unless if you can establish that Anakin possesses some sort of disproportionate ability to fall great heights, he is >> Aryn.

'Aryn fell fully into the Force, raised her defenses, took a fighting stance, and parried Malgus’s two-handed overhand slash. Still, he landed in a cocoon of power, hitting the ground in an explosion of might that shattered the stones round them and turned them into a hail of shrapnel. Unflinching, Aryn deflected them with the Force as she parried another slash from Malgus. The force of the Sith’s blow made her arms quiver, but she gave no ground.'

'Malgus parried crosswise with his blade and stepped into a Force-augmented side kick aimed at her ribs. She caught the kick with her free hand, closed her arm over his leg, spun, and flung Malgus twenty meters from her.'

'His power met her will. The lightning twisted around the glowing blades. The force of it stopped her downward descent and held her aloft in the air for a moment, suspended on a column built of the dark side.

And then she overcame it.' (bare in mind, Malgus overwhelmed a Jedi capable of collapsing two buildings with his lightning previously, but Aryn was able to overcome his lightning)

She's also shown to be faster than Malgus: 'He tried to use his superior strength to force her off the stone, off balance, but she answered his strength with speed, sidestepping his blows, leaping over them, parrying, unleashing her own flurries. The hum of their weapons through the air, the sizzle of crossed blades, merged into a single song of speed and power.'

On the whole Aryn shows remarkable skill in her duel with Malgus, dealing with his telekinesis and lightning extremely well (which Anakin didn't have to his duel with Dooku) and demonstrating herself to be his equal in terms of lightsaber combat, hitting him at least twice. She's really ****ing good dude.

Circular logic about her vs. Malgus aside...nothing here puts her above Anakin.

Meh, I watched the trailer and all he does is bull through 2 of them. Its not like he actually beat them.

Yeah, but if he can bull through two armed sith with nonchalance...yeah, I don't see how Shan's taking them out should be seen as very impressive.

Uh, yes? Anakin's jump backwards is actually fairly slow in terms of combat, I'm sure Satele could use the Force on him before her engages her. Or she could go for a saberlock and use the Force to create a pause in the fight like she did to Malgus. And yeah, I think she's good enough to create some distance.

Anakin himself is no joke when it comes to the Force, though. You have to be quite significantly more powerful than your opponent to outright penetrate a Force shield.

1. I know. Alls I'm saying is that people don't always use their finishing move right at the start, right? Satele had to get through those Sith to get to Malgus and maybe she just thought it was better to continue her charge and hit him with some momentum.

Then she may try the same tactic here, and therefore die.

2. Well Maul has shown that he can overwhelm Obi-Wan, and Dooku is more powerful than Maul imo, especially in terms of tk.

OK, but unless if you can establish Maul's power next to Satele's...

How fast are those rockets? The rate of fire from the rocket launcher wasn't very fast, yet Malgus was hit by the third rocket. The rockets themselves are somewhat quick.

Oh, also, apparently in the RotS novelization, Anakin/Vader crushes a blast door before the arrival of Obi Wan.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
When did this happen?

It seems whilst I see Anakin stalemating/defeating Dooku as a hugely impressive feat for Anakin, you seem to see it as proof that Dooku is no longer a big thing.

Dooku still seems to be among the HIGH TIER characters but latest updates suggest that he possibly have many rivals and superiors in history. When Episode II came out, Dooku's appearance and performance left a big impression on audience. I was hooked as well.

Then BIOWARE and OBSIDIAN got involved in the business and began introducing some more impressive characters to the mythos.

KoTOR 1 came; big deal if Revan and Malak are possibly better then Dooku! They are still only 2.

KoTOR 2 came; big deal if Traya, Sion and Nihilus are possibly better then Dooku! They are still only 3.

SWTOR came; OMG; the hidden Sith Empire is not just led by a supremely powerful leader but it has a Dark Council whose members pack extraordinary capabilities of their own and then their are some outside the Dark Council who also hold their own. The Empire itself have very long history which translates to it producing a long list of dark side prodigies.

As lore continued to expand, it was then revealed that the Dark Council was actually subjected to extraordinary scale of competition within the Empire (Millions of Sith continuously competed with each other for its seats) and only the toughest made it to the Council but even then their was no guarantee of survival; you may find this hard to digest but even some extraordinarily powerful members of the Dark Council have not lasted a month in it in its history.

But the story doesn't ends here; SWTOR is also expanding on the story of even more ancient Sith and some of them are turning out to be monsters as well. And the process continues...

Now it seems like as if Dooku is possibly outgunned by hundreds of Sith in history. This still doesn't takes away from him being counted among the best in history (he is still superior to like MILLIONS) but he is no longer the BIG THING in grand picture.

Anakin's victory over Dooku is still impressive but the "elite-ness" of this accomplishment is now gone.

So when I come across remarks in favor of Dooku in debates which are based on outdated sources, I am forced to give people some reality check about latest updates. Some pay attention but some maintain their delusion because they cannot fathom their favorite characters to be overtaken or overshadowed by so many others. My beef with people is that they should roll with latest updates regardless of what they used to think. This is how the world works.

I mean, I am willing to accept that Revan have been possibly outgunned by more individuals then I originally thought but what can I do about this? I am willing to roll with latest updates.

This is how things are going to be in the future in Sci-Fi works. We personally expect newer works to be more impressive then older works. Our expectations drive innovation. But for some, old habits die hard as well.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I meant in the movie era.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't see how Anakin benefited from that anymore than Dooku did. Besides Anakin was doing well against Dooku in only their encounter (TCW movie). Then he only grew more powerful during TCW. So their later fights reflect this without any hinting towards the "I can beat you because I know you so well" reasoning.

That would apply better to Anakin vs Kenobi.

Unfortunately for Dooku, dark side practices are known to take toll on bodies of living beings. Dooku still managed well for his age but their is an eventual breaking point and Dooku was on his way to it. I believe that Dooku did not receive massive training from Sidious because the latter had set his eyes on Anakin and wanted to use Dooku as a stop-gap. Dooku also did not find ways to address his shortcomings even though ancient records of Sith had answers for all of his shortcomings but scarcity and difficulty in obtaining such records possibly became a hurdle or that Dooku did not take much interest himself in these matters.

Yoda was correct about shortcomings in Dooku's understanding of the ways of the Force, even though the former admitted that Dooku was his most promising student and now he was learning a thing or two about Sith teachings as well.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Again I meant the movie era. In any era there's obviously Luke, Caedus, Abeloth, Starkiller(possibly), Vitiatie. There might be a few more elites, but there will still only be an elite few Imho.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes there are an Elite few Powerful beings that can take him. But make no mistake, he is Extremely Powerful, even when looking throughout the ages.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Even if we accept Anakin's victory over Dooku was circumstantial, it's still clear Anakin is a peer to Dooku. And I don't think it's unreasonable at all to see Anakin as being More Powerful than Dooku by ROTS.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol He's way above average by any standards or in any generation.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You may be underestimating Ventress. She's tooled Council Level members like Fisto (amongst the most celebrated swordsman in history), can easily challenge and defeat multiple Jedi simultaneously and has impresisve TK feats too.

Fisto was good with a lightsaber but his Force abilities were below average. As an example: he couldn't even Force push Grievous properly (downed him for like 1 second). In contrast, Obi-Wan send Grievous packing in admirable fashion with his Force push and he doesn't have prodigious Force abilities.

Of-course, Ventress was competent in her own way but she falls short in comparison to really impressive individuals.

Dark Council members have demolished buildings; routed armies; disintegrated objects made of metal; dominated gigantic beasts; cut-down multiple competent foes like fodder; humiliated even (truly) powerful opponents with their powers; and possibly more....

The bar have been set too high.

Thanaton was a "supremely powerful" Sith with history of holding his own against overwhelming odds (He even assassinated the only known apprentice of Sith Emperor who rebelled; can you imagine?). Nox had to put him down with combined might of supernatural monstrosities, otherwise he was not succeeding. What surprises me most is that for all his power, Thanaton didn't even a last a day in the Dark Council with Nox on his trail. Scary stuff...

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's what Yoda states to him in Battle. But when Dooku's not there he admits to his fellow Jedi that Dooku was the Temple's "Strongest Student" and "Most Learned in the Ways of the Force."

Yoda has a very high opinion of Dooku's abilites.

Yoda was actually right; Dooku didn't expand on his understanding of the ways of the Force much to acquire new talents to stop Anakin. It was always the same: lightsaber dueling or TK or lightning or combination of these. Nothing more.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with The Emperor, then I'd say you have to be Mace, Yoda or Anakin to compete with Count Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's on the official website.

My beef with Mortis related lore is that Anakin in it is incredibly impressive but outside he is an individual with realistic limitations. So it is possible that the The Ones played some games with the Jedi visitors.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
^^^

X-Men movies had comparable budget levels and they still contain superior action sequences of characters depicted in them. Direction is not a forte of Lucas.

---

So your reaction is to bail out when you loose footing in a debate? I have addressed all of your points with sound evidence on my part. If my latest responses are not refuted properly then I will assume that some people have pre-determined mindset about certain things in Star Wars and they do not want to change their mindset even if evidence exists to the contrary. [/B]

I am not going to sit here and go back and forth with you on what is and isn't canon. When you do stupid stuff like limit PT characters to their movie showings, it really detracts from your argument and is why most people on this board generally don't respect your opinion. I am not "losing ground" in this debate. Your walls of text posts just exemplify how all over the place your arguments are. Throughout this debate I've tried to be concise in my arguments, you have in kind responded with chunks of text with varying levels of relevance to the matter at hand, which is Anakin vs. Satele Shan.

If you want to debate movie only characters then you can limit their battles to movie only characters. If you want to limit characters to their movie feats you can make a thread about that and write that in your OP. But in this thread you cannot arbitrarily dismiss canon feats that are just as canon as Satele's existence just because they don't match your opinion of a character's power.

And also, in your post you just asked me to prove Anakin was emotionally unstable, when if you just watch the film or read the novel its ****ing self evident. Minutes before the duel he was crying and after that more traumatizing events happened to him, also he's fighting the man who raised him since he was 10. Shit like that is exactly why I and going to stop responding to your posts now.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am not going to sit here and go back and forth with you on what is and isn't canon. When you do stupid stuff like limit PT characters to their movie showings, it really detracts from your argument and is why most people on this board generally don't respect your opinion. I am not "losing ground" in this debate. Your walls of text posts just exemplify how all over the place your arguments are. Throughout this debate I've tried to be concise in my arguments, you have in kind responded with chunks of text with varying levels of relevance to the matter at hand, which is Anakin vs. Satele Shan.

If you want to debate movie only characters then you can limit their battles to movie only characters. If you want to limit characters to their movie feats you can make a thread about that and write that in your OP. But in this thread you cannot arbitrarily dismiss canon feats that are just as canon as Satele's existence just because they don't match your opinion of a character's power.

And also, in your post you just asked me to prove Anakin was emotionally unstable, when if you just watch the film or read the novel its ****ing self evident. Minutes before the duel he was crying and after that more traumatizing events happened to him, also he's fighting the man who raised him since he was 10. Shit like that is exactly why I and going to stop responding to your posts now.

I like you.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I like you.

I have gained a lot of respect for you as well.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You honestly believe PT era was one of the weaker era of Jedi? When Lucas himself states that was the Jedi in their Prime?

I am not surprised that some statements of Mr. Lucas have been blown out of proportion by some fans to fit their agenda.

Canon writing hints on the Jedi Order loosing its touch during the timeline involving Ro2. Maybe reduced competency?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't see why. Dooku is one of the elite few who can even fight Yoda. And he's more powerful than Maul. And even Maul has been named on numerous occasions as one of the most well trained and powerful Sith Lords ever.

Maul certainly received lot of martial training from Sidious but this was it. In early sources, Maul was hyped as one of the most highly trained Sith in history but this is NOT the case as per latest information.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am not going to sit here and go back and forth with you on what is and isn't canon. When you do stupid stuff like limit PT characters to their movie showings, it really detracts from your argument and is why most people on this board generally don't respect your opinion.

Its not like as if Star Wars is devoid of inconsistencies. And Anakin is not the only casualty of these kind of developments.

Also, this forum have its share of diehard fans of G-canon characters who would not take no for an answer or be flexible in their perceptions. If their beliefs are questioned, then they will resort to all kinds of ways to undermine potential opposition. I have experienced this in other forums as well. I find it DISTURBING that only diehard fans of G-canon characters behave in this manner. The rest are just fine.

I expected you to be different but you proved me wrong.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am not "losing ground" in this debate. Your walls of text posts just exemplify how all over the place your arguments are. Throughout this debate I've tried to be concise in my arguments, you have in kind responded with chunks of text with varying levels of relevance to the matter at hand, which is Anakin vs. Satele Shan.

If you want to debate movie only characters then you can limit their battles to movie only characters. If you want to limit characters to their movie feats you can make a thread about that and write that in your OP. But in this thread you cannot arbitrarily dismiss canon feats that are just as canon as Satele's existence just because they don't match your opinion of a character's power.

And also, in your post you just asked me to prove Anakin was emotionally unstable, when if you just watch the film or read the novel its ****ing self evident. Minutes before the duel he was crying and after that more traumatizing events happened to him, also he's fighting the man who raised him since he was 10. Shit like that is exactly why I and going to stop responding to your posts now.

1. I pointed out an inconsistency in power progression arc of Anakin (But you took offence to this observation)

2. I pointed out the fact that Mr. Lucas represents his personal works in interviews and vice versa because some fans have the habit of pulling out G-canon trump card when it fits their agenda; I posted evidence of this. (But you denied this without doing homework at your end and apparently decided to ignore the evidence)

3. I have pointed out power differentiation of G-canon characters within Episode III: Sidious; Mace; Yoda > Anakin; Dooku; Obi-Wan (But you attempted to argue against this as well)

4. I have pointed out that Anakin's combat abilities were possibly specialized and this is why he lost to Obi-Wan. I posted canonical evidence which reveals that Obi-Wan defeated Anakin legitimately and this canonical information also complements Yoda's assessment about capabilities of Obi-Wan in Episode III. (You argued that Anakin was emotionally conflicted during this duel and I asked you to prove your claim but you backed out)

5. I have acknowledged that Anakin have impressive feats but he is not typically able to utilize his talents at peak efficiency levels because of some of his shortcomings and that the Jedi Masters of his time didn't do justice with his him. (You have to yet to acknowledge Anakin's shortcomings)

6. Ample proof exists of Satele packing amazing talents and is able to utilized them with great efficiency. She is canonically unbelievably fast, perfectly psychologically attuned and is prodigiously strong. She is more well-rounded combatant then Anakin and can undermine him with her abilities. (But your reaction was to undersell her capabilities without basis; this forced me to point out that if Anakin was in her place, you would be all-praise of him)

I have been fair and consistent in my standing and pointed loopholes in your arguments but this didn't sit well with you. You are free to disagree with me on this topic but you are just like ONE OF THEM who don't want to listen and get personal if shown the mirror. Thank you.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Latest updates on Maul reveal that he was a tool

Lulz. He was a tool, yes. 👆

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are free to disagree with me on this topic but you are just like ONE OF THEM who don't want to listen. Thank you.

One of them? Is this some type of jab towards my race peckerwood?

^^^

One of those diehard fans of G-canon characters who are not flexible in their views and take offence to opposing views regardless of their legitimacy. Worst thing is that we these fans get vindictive.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
^^^

One of those diehard fans of G-canon characters who are not flexible in their views and take offence to legitimate opposition.

I am not a diehard fan of G-canon characters. The only G-canon character I have a hard-on for is Yoda. Aside from that I prefer SWTOR characters.

Also lol at the fact that you are "disturbed" by people arguing in favor of PT-era characters. Either you really need to get out more, or you don't know what disturbed means.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I have gained a lot of respect for you as well.

Well I am the most rhetorically and politically gifted poster in KMC history. Not to mention the one with the highest success rate with respect to interpretation.

Buttsecks?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am not a diehard fan of G-canon characters. The only G-canon character I have a hard-on for is Yoda. Aside from that I prefer SWTOR characters.

I understand that you are not without FLAWS, and you need advanced Jedi training to control your emotions.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Also lol at the fact that you are "disturbed" by people arguing in favor of PT-era characters. Either you really need to get out more, or you don't know what disturbed means.

1. Threatened
2. Ridiculed
3. Shunned
4. Ignored
5. Insulted

I mean, their are people who disagree with me on several things (Neph included) but they are decent and civilized in their behavior.

I participate in Star Wars related debates because of my passion and enthusiasm about this Sci-Fi work. However, I don't deserve to be treated like shit for my preferences. But I have to roll with the world.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well I am the most rhetorically and politically gifted poster in KMC history. Not to mention the one with the highest success rate with respect to interpretation.

Buttsecks?

Only if I can be on top, and you provide me with 1 steak dinner.

You can be on top because I prefer to let my partners pleasure me. I've got your steak right here.

*grabs crotch*

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have some grasp of your debating preferences and this is why I attempted to have a reasonable discussion with you in this thread but it backfired.

You know a lot less about what I have been through with these kind of people:-

1. Threatened
2. Ridiculed
3. Shunned
4. Ignored
5. Insulted

I mean, their are people who disagree with me on several things (Neph included) but they are decent and civilized in their behavior.

these kind of people:

these kind of people: