PoD Bane runs the gauntlet

@Master Han:

To be exact it wasn't simply "Jar'Kai" that Bane was so helpless against, it was Kas'im's specific command of Jar'Kai, with which he had mastered all seven forms to what is described as an extraordinarily high level, that he had such difficulty with.

I don't believe there's anybody else in canon, let alone this thread, let alone Dooku that can be said to possess that same advantage over him; I don't believe Dooku can even be said to be particularly proficient with the style.

I'd also be interested to hear why you think that Dooku is comparably skilled to someone who literally mastered every form and style of lightsaber combat in a matter of years and then spent decades perfecting them to an extremely high level.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Bane may very well be more powerful, but as you yourself often proclaim, power is not an inherently decisive advantage in the context of a duel.

Agen is armed with his lightsaber, which should be adequate to contain and deflect Bane's energies unless otherwise noted.

Bane was defeating Kas'im through simply being more powerful. The same applies to Agen, who I don't see as being Kas'im's superior in skill or power.

Lightsabers can be overwhelmed by Force Lightning, as well you know. Agen isn't powerful enough to block Bane's lightning.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Perhaps, but there again, it was a power displayed on a potent Force nexus. I see no reason to believe Bane could harness such energy on neutral terrain.

True, although theres no actual mention of him being boosted by Lehon's power to my knowledge. Besides which is that Kas'im would have been boosted by the same power if Bane was.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Bane's musings would appear more persuasive than baseless appeals to the reverse. That Kaox Krul managed to kill an entire squad of what appear to be Forceless mooks is not inherently impressive.

Bane doesn't muse that Kaan's order is crap, just that the whole idea isn't true to the dark side. And no, Kaox Krul levitated over a lake while duelling for an hour and his fight burned up a forest. Kopecz killed "forceless mooks" which is laughable considering the level of the Republic's elite we see in Swtor, capable of treating Sith warriors like the mooks. Whats impressive tho is how fast he slaughters them.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I meant if we assume AOTC Agen's skill level is "roughly the same" to his ROTS incarnation. I don't believe POD!Bane is as skilled as Agen Kolar.

Ah.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Very few Force feats indeed.

*aggressive suggestion that Bane could own him with Force powers*

Originally posted by ?YLLAER
@Master Han:

To be exact it wasn't simply "Jar'Kai" that Bane was so helpless against, it was Kas'im's specific command of Jar'Kai, with which he had mastered all seven forms to what is described as an extraordinarily high level, that he had such difficulty with.

I don't believe there's anybody else in canon, let alone this thread, let alone Dooku that can be said to possess that same advantage over him; I don't believe Dooku can even be said to be particularly proficient with the style.

I don't understand the black and white fallacy here: Bane had absolutely no experience of jar'kai, and so logically, anyone of even moderate proficiency in the form would have an advantage over Bane, even if it's not to the same degree (read: utter pwnage) that Kas'im wielded.

I'd also be interested to hear why you think that Dooku is comparably skilled to someone who literally mastered every form and style of lightsaber combat in a matter of years and then spent decades perfecting them to an extremely high level.

Dooku is the master of makashi, and clearly has a high-level knowledge of practically every other form. Whilst there's not evidence to suggest that he is Kas'im peer in terms of breadth of knowledge, his makashi mastery has allowed him to fight Yoda for almost a minute and take on Anakin and Obi Wan simultaneously, each individually considered to be among the greatest duelists in the order's history.

Furthemore, Dooku's strength in the Force is far greater than what Kas'im has demonstrated. Pure technical work isn't always enough (Anakin's easily defeating Cin Dralig), especially when your opponent is already a legend in that regard.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh, yes. By quite a freaking lot? Its a good show of skill perhaps, but in terms of actual power and destructive ability not very impressive to my mind at all. The fact is that if Dooku was really that proficient in Force Lightning he wouldn't have required multiple blasts to keep Savage away from him. Put Bane against Savage in that fight and he'd be dead after a single blast.

Rampant speculation aside, being able to disarm three trained Force users has a helluva lot more combative applications than being able to turn people into ash. Given that even mook sith can deflect blaster bolts with their palms, blaster bolts that can vaporize large chunks of durasteel...can you really argue that penetrating three Force defenses < disintegration?

That is true, though remember that Qordis is the headmaster of a Sith academy. Authority is power in that case. If Qordis was a weakling his students would obviously challenge him. And these are the most powerful Sith in the galaxy he's training.

He's probably above average in ability (in a rather weak era, TBH). Obi Wan, however, is already held in high esteem by Yoda and is regarded as one of the greatest duelists in the order by AotC.

It is, again, a matter of pitting the upper 0.1% percentile against the upper 5%.

I don't really see much from AotC Obi-Wan to make me rate him that highly. Qordis' position gives me enough reason to think of him as at least being a decently powerful Sith Lord. Mediocre. AotC Obi-Wan is above that, but hardly by a lot.

Anakin, Mace Windu, Yoda and even Dooku seem to consider him to be far more than a mook Jedi.

True, but Kas'im possesses a lot more lightsaber knowledge than Qui-Gon does. And Bane did surpass Kas'im. Perhaps not in overall skill, but in lightsaber ability he did.

My point is that "I have no more left to train you" doesn't imply what you had insinuated. And Bane never surpassed Kas'im in raw technical mastery; he was only winning against the blademaster because he was intimately familiar with all of his techniques, therefore directing the fight to his superior command of the dark side.

I don't think he can speed-blitz Obi-Wan personally. He wasn't able to speed-blitz AotC Anakin (else he wouldn't duel him until he's tired), so I see no reason he could speedblitz RotS Obi-Wan.

RoDV suggests that this is how he offed Obi Wan. Which doesn't suggest that he could pull it off under any timeframe.

Lawl, no way is Bane getting dropped in seconds bro.

Most lightsaber duels only last for "seconds".

They're not vastly superior. Bane is his marked superior in terms of Lightning and is high-class with his lightsaber ability and telekinesis.

He's not his superior in terms of lightning, and "high-class" doesn't put him above a legendary combatant that can give Yoda a sort-of hard time. Remember that Dooku is Mace Windu's peer as late as Dark Rendezvous.

That isn't the same thing. Bane couldn't deal with Dual Lightsabers because he's never faced it before and had no idea what to expect or what it could do. Dooku still only uses a single lightsaber, so even if he's somewhat unfamiliar with Makashi (which is unlikely, I'm sure Kas'im would have used it against him enough for him to be familiar with fighting it. In fact, I seem to recall that Farfalla used Makashi in his fight with Bane) he's not going to be overwhelmed with possibilities.

He's still going to be vastly outclassed in terms of technical bladework.

Originally posted by Master Han
I don't understand the black and white fallacy here: Bane had absolutely [b]no experience of jar'kai, and so logically, anyone of even moderate proficiency in the form would have an advantage over Bane, even if it's not to the same degree (read: utter pwnage) that Kas'im wielded.[/b]

It's the degree of advantage that I was addressing. Your words implied that Dooku would have the same advantage by whatever his passing knowledge of Jar'Kai is as well as other stuff that you claimed Bane would be inexperienced with, when Kas'im's advantage was so great primarily because he had such a range of high level techniques to use against Bane.

Dooku is the master of makashi,

Really? I don't believe his technical expertise with Makashi has been documented to the point that you could make that claim. Certainly he was a notable individual in his era, one of the better lightsaber users and he was a master of Makashi but I don't believe the source material ever makes it clear that his technical expertise quite matches what you're describing here, whether it's best Makashi technician of his era, or the best ever, or whatever. People, and I'm not pointing fingers, seem to have a habit of identifiying PT Jedi that were good at a particular form and then labelling them the best ever or "The" master of it, they do the same thing with Obi-Wan and Soresu, but I believe it's almost entirely wishful thinking, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's where you're getting a lot fo your information from.

and clearly has a high-level knowledge of practically every other form.

How so?

Whilst there's not evidence to suggest that he is Kas'im peer in terms of breadth of knowledge, his makashi mastery has allowed him to fight Yoda for almost a minute

It's his full range of abilities relevant to lightsaber combat that allowed him to do those things, and I'm not sure surviving against Yoda for a mere minute is anything to jump up and down about. It's just a minute, and I believe even with the advantage of being on a world steeped in the darkside Yoda was his clear superior so the evidence seems to point to Yoda being significantly superior.

and take on Anakin and Obi Wan simultaneously, each individually considered to be among the greatest duelists in the order's history.

I think that's questionable.

Furthemore, Dooku's strength in the Force is far greater than what Kas'im has demonstrated.

I disagree, Dooku is shown to use the Force offensively to greater effect but he isn't someone who's ever truly stood out in the grand scheme of things for his powers in scale, knowledge or control. At best he uses his powers effectively while lightsaber duelling and he has used it to dominate other Force Users several times, establishing that he was firmly more powerful, but he isn't among those characters we've seen that had demonstrated anything remotely remarkable, such as the Banes, the Exar Kuns, the Trayas etc.

Kas'im's ability to shield himself against an attack that would have literally liquified him otherwise is imo more impressive than anything we've ever seen from Dooku, and it's likely that he would have focused his efforts more on the kinds of abilities that would support him in saber combat as well as defending against Force powers, whereas Dooku clearly favoured using the Force offensiveyy at times, so I would have even more reaosn to believe that Kas'im's force abilities were superior as far as how they relate to lightsaber combat (he would also clearly have the natural physical advantage).

Pure technical work isn't always enough (Anakin's easily defeating Cin Dralig), especially when your opponent is already a legend in that regard.

Whether you wish to call Dooku a legend or not, the evidence would suggest that Kas'im would have a massive technical advantage over Dooku and I believe the other abilities are also in his favour.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kas'im's mastery of Makashi specifically was comparable to Dooku's, it was certainly to an extremely high level at which point you would start getting diminishing returns anyway. Dooku may have a small advantage with one particular form but Kas'im will have a gigantic advantage in having mastered everything. He has a unique advantage in being able to tailor his approach to his enemy's weaknesses, whether it exploits weaknesses in his opponent's style or is something completely unfamiliar to him, his vast range of techniques would keep his opponent guessing and according to PoD stifles the effectiveness of battle precognition, and he would be able to match the best elements of each style to the specific function they work best in. Where Dooku is again perhaps slightly better with one particular style, Kas'im is the vastly more dynamic, flexible and unorthodox swordsman of the two (and it was due to these characteristics that he was able to overcome Bane anyway).

Originally posted by ?YLLAER
Really? I don't believe his technical expertise with Makashi has been documented to the point that you could make that claim. Certainly he was a notable individual in his era, one of the better lightsaber users and he was a master of Makashi but I don't believe the source material ever makes it clear that his technical expertise quite matches what you're describing here, whether it's best Makashi technician of his era, or the best ever, or whatever. People, and I'm not pointing fingers, seem to have a habit of identifiying PT Jedi that were good at a particular form and then labelling them the best ever or "The" master of it, they do the same thing with Obi-Wan and Soresu, but I believe it's almost entirely wishful thinking, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's where you're getting a lot fo your information from.

Er, actually I too can't quite recall where I got this idea from. All I can remember is him being described at great length as a born duelist, wherein swordsmanship, foortwork etc came to him as easy as breathing, but can't recall where thats said. RotS?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well we know Jinn was among the best; The Jedi Academy Training Manual states that Jinn is a superior duelist to Anoon Bondara, himself considered one of the best.

When was this stated?. Can you post a link or screenshot of it. Not disagreeing just want to see.

Originally posted by ?YLLAER
It's the degree of advantage that I was addressing. Your words implied that Dooku would have the same advantage by whatever his passing knowledge of Jar'Kai is as well as other stuff that you claimed Bane would be inexperienced with, when Kas'im's advantage was so great primarily because he had such a range of high level techniques to use against Bane.

Regardless, the evidence suggests that Dooku already has a massive edge over the Bane from Path of Destruction in technical skill, and so his greater breadth of knowledge, whether in jar’kai or makashi, and whether as great as Kas’im’s or not, will widen the gulf between the two combatants even further.

Remember that Bane only drives back Kas’im early in their duel because of his intimate familiarity with all of the blademaster’s movements, and his superior command of the dark side. Dooku wields makashi and sports a peculiar hilt much like Bane’s own (but used in a different manner), and so it’s a bit of a stretch to argue that Des could stand a chance against him in a duel.

Really? I don't believe his technical expertise with Makashi has been documented to the point that you could make that claim. Certainly he was a notable individual in his era, one of the better lightsaber users and he was a master of Makashi but I don't believe the source material ever makes it clear that his technical expertise quite matches what you're describing here, whether it's best Makashi technician of his era, or the best ever, or whatever. People, and I'm not pointing fingers, seem to have a habit of identifiying PT Jedi that were good at a particular form and then labelling them the best ever or "The" master of it, they do the same thing with Obi-Wan and Soresu, but I believe it's almost entirely wishful thinking, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's where you're getting a lot fo your information from.

He’s described as “one of the greatest duelists in the Order’s 25,000 year history”, and “an even greater sith lord”. His accolades throughout the prequel novelizations make it clear that he’s one of the most dangerous combatants to ever live.

How so?

He trained Qui Gon (ataru), frequently sparred with Windu (juyo or even vaapad) and can mentally comment on Obi Wan’s mastery of soresu, and tactics he’d developed to fight against specific forms, during his duel in RotS. Remember that he chose to specialize in makashi, an old form that’s quite limited beyond lightsaber sparring, because that was his lifelong passion; Kas’im’s not pulling anything off Dooku would be unfamiliar with.

Additionally, he was a temple lightsaber instructor…which sort of makes it necessary for him to be diversely skilled. It’s not as if any significant quantity of Jedi trained specifically in makashi.

It's his full range of abilities relevant to lightsaber combat that allowed him to do those things, and I'm not sure surviving against Yoda for a mere minute is anything to jump up and down about. It's just a minute, and I believe even with the advantage of being on a world steeped in the darkside Yoda was his clear superior so the evidence seems to point to Yoda being significantly superior.

It still allows us to put Dooku’s place in context. He can trash duelists specifically stated to be among the greatest in the Order’s history, and is only surpassed by RotS by:

The most powerful light-sider to ever live
The most powerful sith lord to ever live
A Jedi who defeated said sith lord
Under certain circumstances, the Chosen One

Remember that the PT is explicitly the golden age of lightsaber dueling. Dooku is among the top dogs…in that era (and any).

I think that's questionable.

Except that it’s canonically stated. 😉 Mace Windu calls Kenobi “the master of soresu”. Various sources speculate that he may be the form’s greatest practitioner to have ever lived.

I disagree, Dooku is shown to use the Force offensively to greater effect but he isn't someone who's ever truly stood out in the grand scheme of things for his powers in scale, knowledge or control. At best he uses his powers effectively while lightsaber duelling and he has used it to dominate other Force Users several times, establishing that he was firmly more powerful, but he isn't among those characters we've seen that had demonstrated anything remotely remarkable, such as the Banes, the Exar Kuns, the Trayas etc.

Kas'im's ability to shield himself against an attack that would have literally liquified him otherwise is imo more impressive than anything we've ever seen from Dooku, and it's likely that he would have focused his efforts more on the kinds of abilities that would support him in saber combat as well as defending against Force powers, whereas Dooku clearly favoured using the Force offensiveyy at times, so I would have even more reaosn to believe that Kas'im's force abilities were superior as far as how they relate to lightsaber combat (he would also clearly have the natural physical advantage).

Dooku is powerful enough to neutralize Ventress with one finger (they would both benefit from the nexus), toss Obi Wan around like a rag doll (and Kenobi is himself no weakling), and disarm three nightsisters while drugged.

Is he on RoT Bane’s level? That would be a stretch. But remember that we are referring to a Bane who has had perhaps a year or two of formal instruction, and of that time, Kas’im, his lightsaber instructor, was his only “master” that wasn’t a useless weakling.

Whether you wish to call Dooku a legend or not, the evidence would suggest that Kas'im would have a massive technical advantage over Dooku and I believe the other abilities are also in his favour.

Dooku is a legend, according to narrators, characters and feats.

Kas’im may surpass Tyranus in breadth of technical skill, but remember that Dooku has survived confrontations with Yoda, and was Windu’s superior until late in the Clone Wars.

Now, note that Palpatine, Yoda’s peer, can one-shot kill Agen Kolar, who is described as, again, being one of the greatest swordsmen the Order has ever produced. That Dooku can even fight in the same speed weight-class as Yoda speaks volume about his mastery of the Force.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kas'im's mastery of Makashi specifically was comparable to Dooku's

There’s nothing to suggest this.

Dooku may have a small advantage with one particular form but Kas'im will have a gigantic advantage in having mastered everything. He has a unique advantage in being able to tailor his approach to his enemy's weaknesses, whether it exploits weaknesses in his opponent's style or is something completely unfamiliar to him, his vast range of techniques would keep his opponent guessing and according to PoD stifles the effectiveness of battle precognition, and he would be able to match the best elements of each style to the specific function they work best in. Where Dooku is again perhaps slightly better with one particular style, Kas'im is the vastly more dynamic, flexible and unorthodox swordsman of the two (and it was due to these characteristics that he was able to overcome Bane anyway).

Kas’im’s breadth of maneuvers won’t be of as much help as you’d think against a legendary lightsaber instructor who fanatically sparred and dueled everyone. Especially given that he benefits from 1000 years of form refinement.

Originally posted by Master Han
He's still going to be vastly outclassed in terms of technical bladework.

I disagree, Bane's learning ability with a lightsaber is arguably the greatest we've ever seen by a long shot; he effectively mastered the defencive measures against Kas'im's entire arsenal of techniques (numbering in the millions) in a matter of months and was just as diligent and demonstratably talented in his every other study, so we have every reason to believe that he would have made similar progress in his own chosen lightsaber form. In which case I feel their technique may be on a similar level, where Bane's gargantuan advantage in Force ability would be the real deciding factor in a duel between them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane was defeating Kas'im through simply being more powerful. The same applies to Agen, who I don't see as being Kas'im's superior in skill or power.

Lightsabers can be overwhelmed by Force Lightning, as well you know. Agen isn't powerful enough to block Bane's lightning.

I see no reason to believe Agen can't deflect Bane's lightning with his lightsaber when Obi-Wan successfully repulsed Dooku's attack despite being considerably weaker with respect to skill and the Force than the good Count.

Originally posted by Nephthys
True, although theres no actual mention of him being boosted by Lehon's power to my knowledge. Besides which is that Kas'im would have been boosted by the same power if Bane was.

That the feat was performed on a nexus at all is reason enough to question it as there is no indication that exploiting nexuses requires specific effort.

That Kas'im was bolstered by the nexus is uncontested, but unless they he was bolstered to a greater extent than was Bane, then he can be said to be capable of blunting Bane's TK.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane doesn't muse that Kaan's order is crap, just that the whole idea isn't true to the dark side. And no, Kaox Krul levitated over a lake while duelling for an hour and his fight burned up a forest. [b]Kopecz killed "forceless mooks" which is laughable considering the level of the Republic's elite we see in Swtor, capable of treating Sith warriors like the mooks. Whats impressive tho is how fast he slaughters them.[/b]

I would need to see details of Kaox Krul's accomplishments from a canonical source.

Not to mention that it's only laughable if the Sith warriors the Republic's elite takes down are of respectable caliber. To say nothing of the 2,000 years that separates SWTOR from the Brotherhood.

Originally posted by Nephthys
*aggressive suggestion that Bane could own him with Force powers*

Perhaps, but currently baseless.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
When was this stated?. Can you post a link or screenshot of it. Not disagreeing just want to see.

Sure.

Originally posted by Master Han
Rampant speculation aside, being able to disarm three trained Force users has a helluva lot more combative applications than being able to turn people into ash. Given that even mook sith can deflect blaster bolts with their palms, blaster bolts that can vaporize large chunks of durasteel...can you really argue that penetrating three Force defenses < disintegration?

It isn't speculation. Savage has shown no ability to defend against Force Lightning and isn't durable enough to tank the power needed to turn a human to ash. He'd die.

What force defenses? They're nightsisters, how do you know they have any defense against force lightning? Or can use force shields. Neither technique is mentioned in Mother Talzin's writings in the Book of Sith. And still, yes it is above that. Dooku's lightning isn't powerful enough to charr the flesh or disintegrate a body to ash. Thats a level of focused destructive power that is beyond him.

Also blast bolts can't vaporize durasteel, get outta here!

Originally posted by Master Han
He's probably above average in ability (in a rather weak era, TBH). Obi Wan, however, is already held in high esteem by Yoda and is regarded as one of the greatest duelists in the order by AotC.

It is, again, a matter of pitting the upper 0.1% percentile against the upper 5%.

Proof that Obi-Wan is one of the orders best duelists in AotC? He's an above average/high-level Jedi Master at best. He hasn't shown any particular strength with the Force at all at that point, nor done anything impressive in terms of dueling.

AotC Obi-Wan is not in the upper 0.1%. 😬

As you say, Qordis is an average to above average Sith Lord, while AotC Obi-Wan is an above average to high Jedi Master. He isn't "far" above him.

Originally posted by Master Han
Anakin, Mace Windu, Yoda and even Dooku seem to consider him to be far more than a mook Jedi.

Don't care. Give me feats that show he is anything more than a talented Jedi Master.

Plus those guys only like him because of Qui-Gon.

Originally posted by Master Han
My point is that "I have no more left to train you" doesn't imply what you had insinuated. And Bane never surpassed Kas'im in raw technical mastery; he was only winning against the blademaster because he was intimately familiar with all of his techniques, therefore directing the fight to his superior command of the dark side.

Isn't being intimately familiar with his techniques a form of technical mastery? Technically? 😉 Besides, at the start Bane notes that Kas'im had held back his true ability:

'Kas'im sighed. "Then your life ends here." And be leapt in, his weapon moving with far more speed than he had ever shown during their practice sessions.

Parrying the first sequence Bane realized his former Master had always been holding something in reserve . . . just as Bane himself had done in the early stages of his battle against Sirak. Only now was he seeing Kas'im's true ability, and he was barely able to defend himself. Barely, but still able.'

The thing you're thinking of is:

'The outcome was inevitable. Bane was simply too strong in the Force. Only some unexpected maneuver could save Kas'im, but they had fought too many times in the past for him to surprise Bane now. Over the course of his training Bane had seen every possible sequence, series, move, and trick with the double-bladed lightsaber, and he knew how to counter and nullify them all.'

Which again, only demonstrates a huge grasp of technical mastery on Bane's part.

Originally posted by Master Han
RoDV suggests that this is how he offed Obi Wan. Which doesn't suggest that he could pull it off under any timeframe.

And RotS suggests that Obi-Wan is too fast for Dooku to blitz. Obi-Wan had no problems with Greivous' speed, which he seems to regard as faster than Dooku's.

Originally posted by Master Han
Most lightsaber duels only last for "seconds".

So you don't think Dooku would stomp Bane? Thats what I thought you were implying after all.

Originally posted by Master Han
He's not his superior in terms of lightning, and "high-class" doesn't put him above a legendary combatant that can give Yoda a sort-of hard time. Remember that Dooku is Mace Windu's peer as late as Dark Rendezvous.

He is way the **** superior in lightning. Dooku's lightning is pussy-level bro.

Originally posted by Master Han
He's still going to be vastly outclassed in terms of technical bladework.

I doubt it. Neb's posts may seem to be ridiculous, but he is right about Bane's lightsaber mastery and learning rate.

Originally posted by Master Han
Regardless, the evidence suggests that Dooku already has a massive edge over the Bane from Path of Destruction in technical skill,

See last post.

and so his greater breadth of knowledge, whether in jar’kai or makashi, and whether as great as Kas’im’s or not, will widen the gulf between the two combatants even further.

Bane is certainly familiar with Makashi, and this unknown and likely imaginary skill in Jar'Kai (that you agree Dooku would not realistically be using in this engagement) certainly on paper will not have the same debilitating effect that Kas'im's comprehensive mastery did.

Remember that Bane only drives back Kas’im early in their duel because of his intimate familiarity with all of the blademaster’s movements, and his superior command of the dark side. Dooku wields makashi and sports a peculiar hilt much like Bane’s own (but used in a different manner), and so it’s a bit of a stretch to argue that Des could stand a chance against him in a duel.

???

He’s described as “one of the greatest duelists in the Order’s 25,000 year history”, and “an even greater sith lord”. His accolades throughout the prequel novelizations make it clear that he’s one of the most dangerous combatants to ever live.

Which is extremely vague and ambiguous and it's a bit of a stretch for you to try and quantify his technical precision in Makashi directly from those quotes. His ability as a duelist is not based solely on his technique, and being one of "the greatest" could mean anything from one of the greatest 100 Jedi in its history to one the greatest thousand Jedi in its history, as it's an entirely relative term. I'ts completely unquantifiable.

He trained Qui Gon (ataru),

It isn't a requirement at all that the master train their padawan in their chosen form directly, that's what the lightsaber instructors are for and we see numerous cases where this doesn't happen.

frequently sparred with Windu (juyo or even vaapad) and can mentally comment on Obi Wan’s mastery of soresu, and tactics he’d developed to fight against specific forms, during his duel in RotS. Remember that he chose to specialize in makashi, an old form that’s quite limited beyond lightsaber sparring, because that was his lifelong passion; Kas’im’s not pulling anything off Dooku would be unfamiliar with.

Well maybe your view of "high-level knowledge" differs from mine but I personally wouldn't use such strong wording.

Additionally, he was a temple lightsaber instructor…which sort of makes it necessary for him to be diversely skilled. It’s not as if any significant quantity of Jedi trained specifically in makashi.

Not necessarily as there are multiple instructors and he could have simply been of the more specialized variety. In the RotS novelisation when talking about Grievous, Mace Windu casually remarks that he had been trained by Dooku and that Obi-Wan should expect him to be trained in Makashi (leaving it at that), for what it's worth.

It still allows us to put Dooku’s place in context. He can trash duelists specifically stated to be among the greatest in the Order’s history, and is only surpassed by RotS by:

The most powerful light-sider to ever live
The most powerful sith lord to ever live
A Jedi who defeated said sith lord
Under certain circumstances, the Chosen One

Remember that the PT is explicitly the golden age of lightsaber dueling. Dooku is among the top dogs…in that era (and any).

Well you're again just stating things that this forum likes to consider as facts. Nobody has ever adequately sourced the statement that it was the golden age of lightsaber dueling (which I believe originated as "the golden age of the Jedi" which GL states in the commentary for TPM), and Yoda and Sidious have not been proven to be the best; in Sidious's case there are certainly numerous Sith Lords who are more powerful on paper.

Except that it’s canonically stated. 😉 Mace Windu calls Kenobi “the master of soresu”.

Which gives you the justification to just refer to him as "The master of Soresu" with whatever implication you wish? Just say that Mace Windu considered him the finest Soresu practitioner (not necessarily technician) at the time.

Various sources speculate that he may be the form’s greatest practitioner to have ever lived.

lol. No.

Dooku is powerful enough to neutralize Ventress with one finger (they would both benefit from the nexus),

The darkside nexus would arguably be of greater benefit to offensive use of the Force, it's Asaaj Ventress, and if you look at the passage he clearly catches her off guard and she shows no active attempt at resisting.

toss Obi Wan around like a rag doll (and Kenobi is himself no weakling), and disarm three nightsisters while drugged.

Obi-Wan is not really ever demonstrated to be anything beyond average as far as Force power is concerned for somebody in his position, and if you're referring to the RotS duel you could argue that he simply outmanoeuvred him rather than directly breaking through his Force defences given they were engaged in a lightsaber duel.

I'm not sure being drugged would have reduced his powers and I don't believe there was anything even slighty noteworth about those nightsisters.

Is he on RoT Bane’s level? That would be a stretch. But remember that we are referring to a Bane who has had perhaps a year or two of formal instruction,

Bane's best feat arguably comes from PoD bro. His role in directing the Brotherhood's storm ritual involved him absorbing, containing and redirecting a level of electricity that literally spread across the entire planet and was consuming everything in its path, which is among the finer displays of power and mastery we've come across.

and of that time, Kas’im, his lightsaber instructor, was his only “master” that wasn’t a useless weakling.

As I said, questionable interpretations aside, we have every reason to believe that the BoD, from a combat standpoint, were probably the finest organisation of Sith to have ever gathered.

Dooku is a legend, according to narrators, characters and feats.

Vague, vague and no.

Kas’im may surpass Tyranus in breadth of technical skill, but remember that Dooku has survived confrontations with Yoda, and was Windu’s superior until late in the Clone Wars.

Now, note that Palpatine, Yoda’s peer, can one-shot kill Agen Kolar, who is described as, again, being one of the greatest swordsmen the Order has ever produced. That Dooku can even fight in the same speed weight-class as Yoda speaks volume about his mastery of the Force.

From an earlier debate:

Firstly I would point out that "the best" is an entirely relative term that could allow for an extremely vast range in hierarchical status that's basically impossible to determine, though one thing we can say for certain is that it clearly deals in a disparity of ability that at the very least extends from the ability to compete to Sidious to the inability to survive against him for a matter of seconds. Referring to them as "the best" if anything displays the liberties writers will take with the ambiguity of language rather than determining anything substantial about their placement. So I am largely disagreeing with the usage of that quote moreso than the message it was originally intended to convey.

There’s nothing to suggest this.

The text indicates that he's an extremely high level master of every form, so it's very much suggested that they are comparable, especially when you take diminishing returns into account. Out of the two of them, Kas'im is the only one who is explicitly described as making a dedicated attempt to perfect his skills to the highest level even after mastering the styles in the first place, and in fact went one step further and spent more time perfecting the styles than it took him to master them. Dooku cannot be said to have been quite as dedicated, and while it is true that Kas'im would have had to divide his time between all of his forms, if you look at the time it took him to master all 7 forms for all three primary styles of lightsaber (under ten years, less time than Cin Drallig claims it takes for the average Jedi to master a single form (10 years)) it isn't at all a stretch of the imagination to say that his vastly superior natural talent made up the difference.

Kas’im’s breadth of maneuvers won’t be of as much help as you’d think against a legendary lightsaber instructor who fanatically sparred and dueled everyone. Especially given that he benefits from 1000 years of form refinement.

The forms have never been documented to have changed over that time period and had already existed for thousands of years. Even if you think they had room for improvement, it would likely have been minimal.

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~7 minute mark.

Is that for the Golden Age of Duelling quote?

?v=5m2yIAxeBHA

Per Lucas, around the 5 minute mark, no Jedi fights the same and "each Jedi has a particular style."

It's likely, then, that Bane will indeed be unfamiliar with many of the prequel Jedi's combat techniques.

With this in mind, I am now convinced Agen will in all probability beat him. Congratulations, Intrepid, you've won me over.

Wait, really? All he says is its the 'heyday', without applying it to duelling or anything.

Those will just be indvidual quirks and tendencies or even little things like differences in body type and lightsaber hilt, they will still ultimately be using the core techniques of their chosen style, and it certainly wouldn't be quite the same level of unfamiliarity that Kas'im pulling out an unfamiliar form would bring.

Exactly. Extrapolating from that that Bane will face the same amount of unfamiliarity from that as an entire second lightsaber is absurd, bordering on stupid.

Neb
Those will just be indvidual quirks and tendencies or even little things like differences in body type and lightsaber hilt, they will still ultimately be using the core techniques of their chosen style, and it certainly wouldn't be quite the same level of unfamiliarity that Kas'im pulling out an unfamiliar form would bring.

Lucas specifically uses the word "style" and claims that no Jedi fights the same. This is clearly a disadvantage for the limited Bane.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wait, really? All he says is its the 'heyday', without applying it to duelling or anything.

You are, of course, at liberty to disregard the fact that the heyday, the golden age of the Jedi remark is cushioned by other remarks about "intense action scenes" and battles. 👆

You may also disregard the fact that Qui-Gon described Maul as "well-trained in the Jedi arts" after their skirmish on Tatooine.

As for me, I'm sticking with the most reasonable interpretation: That the golden age of the Jedi would naturally reflect the height of the Jedi arts... which are apparently combat ones.

And in addition to the contextual clues, what else could Lucas have possibly been referring to with the term "golden age"? Competency? Look at the PT Jedi - don't make me laugh. Moral integrity? Again, don't make me ****ing laugh. Political power? Hardly, in comparison to the Jedi Supreme Chancellors. Being assholes? Well, you might have a point there.