ROTS Mace and Yoda vs. Zone Anakin & Sidious

Originally posted by Dolos
Not unless he wanted to, what you're saying is that Zonakin is Anakin's full potential, all that reservoir (stated in the Novelization as a "bottomless pit"😉 at once, which makes him able to stomp anything in the mythos. Is that what you believe he was accessing at the time?

He was accessing a ridiculous amount of the Raw power at his disposal, which he doesn't/can not on an average day.

I don't think he was accessing enough power to best the Son and Daughter together, but probably enough to take on Yoda or Sidious.

Originally posted by Dolos
Anyway, Djem So has distinct advantages over Makashi in particular (and disadvantages to Soresu whereas Makashi has advantages over Soresu). Vader switched to that style after Episode II because of Dooku.

Not true. Makashi is the ultimate fencing form.

Originally posted by Dolos
I'd say depending on whether or not Zonakin really had the power he did on Mortis when fighting Dooku. Mortis was a mystical place, it imbued Anakin with the ability to tap into extra energies simply because he was the Chosen One. I don't think Anakin possessed as much control over his "reservoir" as Yoda who'd trained for 800 years to access his own limits. Not even close.

Whatever advantages he was pulling from Mortis doesn't matter. What matters is he didn't repeat that performance even on Mortis, meaning he was in a Zone state when he accomplished that feat.

He reached his Zone state again against Count Dooku, and overpowered him to such an extent that Dooku's Knowledge of the Force, Mastery of Swordplay, and Decades of experience were all useless, even a joke.

That's clearly operating on a another level. In that state he would give even Yoda or Sidious hell. If not outright defeat them.

Originally posted by Dolos
Anakin wasn't nearly as skilled as Sidious, Windu, or Yoda or even Obi-Wan in the disciplines of lightsaber dueling, he certainly didn't have the innate talent over Force techniques as his son in combat, or the ability to find his opponent's weak-spot and instantly win a fight like Windu did. He wasn't all that talented, he beat the Ones simply because he was uber powerful, and they couldn't resist his power, basically.

What are you talking about? Anakin was as fine a Djem So user as Dooku had ever seen. He was trained in all forms of lightsaber combat by RODV, which means he was probably a master of mutiple forms by ROTS.

He was also equal to Kenobi in skill as a swordmaster.

Originally posted by Dolos
It was more of an Army of Bothan Mercenaries spread across a sector of a city.

When was this?

http://i.imgur.com/eaLoqp0.jpg
Palpatine sends lightning across Coruscant.

While using a ritual.

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
http://i.imgur.com/eaLoqp0.jpg
Palpatine sends lightning across Coruscant.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He was accessing a ridiculous amount of the Raw power at his disposal, which he doesn't/can not on an average day.

I don't think he was accessing enough power to best the Son and Daughter together, but probably enough to take on Yoda or Sidious.

Not true. Makashi is the ultimate fencing form.

Whatever advantages he was pulling from Mortis doesn't matter. What matters is he didn't repeat that performance even on Mortis, meaning he was in a Zone state when he accomplished that feat.

He reached his Zone state again against Count Dooku, and overpowered him to such an extent that Dooku's Knowledge of the Force, Mastery of Swordplay, and Decades of experience were all useless, even a joke.

That's clearly operating on a another level. In that state he would give even Yoda or Sidious hell. If not outright defeat them.

What are you talking about? Anakin was as fine a Djem So user as Dooku had ever seen. He was trained in all forms of lightsaber combat by RODV, which means he was probably a master of mutiple forms by ROTS.

He was also equal to Kenobi in skill as a swordmaster.

He was skilled, but I would not go as far as saying he was as good as Kenobi all together (Kenobi's ability to hang in there against Anakin who wasn't just a rival in swordplay, but also far stronger in the Force), and Yoda claimed Obi-Wan was no match for Sidious.

Windu was a better swordsman than all of these guys, not in pure technical skill or speed, but in his ability to sense, at a critical moment, the killing-stroke that beats his opponent. Windu could beat Zonakin, Sidious could beat Zonakin, and Yoda could beat Zonakin.

Originally posted by Nephthys
When was this?

It was in a book (can't remember the name), Boba Fett was on the cover along with Palpatine himself. It was about some deal that awry or something and Sidious went there to settle the score, effectively ending what remained of a Black Sun esque remnant.

Couldn't Anakin in the Zone just strangle mace windu to death with his hands?

Also couldn't Sidious just force crush Yoda into a ball or some such, I mean if he wasn't holding back and was going all out?

Originally posted by Board Walker
Couldn't Anakin in the Zone just strangle mace windu to death with his hands?

Also couldn't Sidious just force crush Yoda into a ball or some such, I mean if he wasn't holding back and was going all out?

Anakin maybe one day could have done either of those. Even as Vader, but it would take more than being in the zone, it would take developing his powers by being in the zone for many years, perhaps a decade, after ROTS. Something he couldn't do as a conflicted Sith Lord, but as a confident Jedi Master.

Originally posted by Dolos
He was skilled, but I would not go as far as saying he was as good as Kenobi all together (Kenobi's ability to hang in there against Anakin who wasn't just a rival in swordplay, but also far stronger in the Force), and Yoda claimed Obi-Wan was no match for Sidious.

The ROTS novel makes it clear they were equal in skill. "Blade for blade they were identical, like two halves of the same warrior."

Originally posted by Dolos
Windu was a better swordsman than all of these guys, not in pure technical skill or speed, but in his ability to sense, at a critical moment, the killing-stroke that beats his opponent. Windu could beat Zonakin, Sidious could beat Zonakin, and Yoda could beat Zonakin.

Windu is equal to Dooku in swordplay as confirmed by Dark Rendezvous. If he's improved by ROTS it's unlikely to be by a significant amount. And your making out it's shatterpoint that makes him superior to everyone, even though he had shatterpoint in the days Dooku used to best him.

Zonakin made Dooku's power a joke. He can definitely best Windu in that state, and I wouldn't consider Yoda or Sidious safe either.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The ROTS novel makes it clear they were equal in skill. "Blade for blade they were identical, like two halves of the same warrior."

In pure technique, skill goes beyond that. They were equal in technique, and yet Anakin was physically faster and more agile, stronger in the Force, and Obi-Wan lasted so long simply because he was more aware of his surroundings; moreover, better at using his surroundings, that's a skill.

Windu is equal to Dooku in swordplay as confirmed by Dark Rendezvous. If he's improved by ROTS it's unlikely to be by a significant amount. And your making out it's shatterpoint that makes him superior to everyone, even though he had shatterpoint in the days Dooku used to best him.

Zonakin made Dooku's power a joke. He can definitely best Windu in that state, and I wouldn't consider Yoda or Sidious safe either.

Except that Windu, Sidious, and Yoda - in descending order - were far more lethal in combat than Dooku: and Sidious and Yoda were stronger in the Force than not only Dooku, but Zonakin as well. Moreover, that's a meaningless comparison because this isn't a sparring match. Furthermore, Dooku is probably the most skilled duelist here, followed by Sidious (who could switch between all 7 lightsaber forms at moment's notice). And Dooku used to lose his sparring matches with Yoda. Grevious himself, due to his anatomical advantages, is probably the most efficient lightsaber wielder here, but would be quickly cut down by any of these masters due their ability to supplement strength, endurance, stamina, dexterity, speed, and agility with the Force.

If this battle were to occur, Sidious would recognize his disadvantage - that his ally is far from ready for such an encounter - and would be aware that he'd lose.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The ROTS novel makes it clear they were equal in skill. "Blade for blade they were identical, like two halves of the same warrior."

Originally posted by Dolos
In pure technique, skill goes beyond that. They were equal in technique, and yet Anakin was physically faster and more agile, stronger in the Force, and Obi-Wan lasted so long simply because he was more aware of his surroundings; moreover, better at using his surroundings, that's a skill.

They were equals in that fight.

Kenobi won because he had the better "mind set," (as Dave Filoni would put it) in that fight.

And you seem to be underestimating Skywalker's tactical know-how. I suggest you watch the Clone Wars. It's usually Skywalker's tactical (and environmental) skills which save the day.

Originally posted by Dolos
And Dooku was better than Anakin, he was simply out-powered by Anakin,

???

He was better, but he got bested? Right.

Originally posted by Dolos
very specifically, he wasn't quick enough to recover and defend himself.

Because Skywalker was too powerful. And he wasn't lacking in skill or technique either- Being as fine a Djem So user as Dooku had ever seen and besting the Count with a grappling move.

Originally posted by Dolos
Yoda bested Windu in their sparring matches, the full effects of shatterpoint just aren't there in a sparring match where both duelists have equal opportunity, and must follow basic principles like not using the environment or the Force to aid them past augmenting their use of the lightsaber.

There's no reason Shatterpoint would not be effective during sparrng. Not to mention Dark Rendezvous also puts Dooku and Mace as equals, which is well post AOTC.

Originally posted by Dolos
Except that Windu, Sidious, and Yoda - in descending order - were far more lethal in combat than Dooku:

Windu is not. And I doubt Sidious would stomp Dooku in a pure fencing match either.

Originally posted by Dolos
and Sidious and Yoda were stronger in the Force than not only Dooku, but Zonakin as well.

Unlikely. Yoda has fought Dooku. And he wasn't being overpowered to the extent ZonAkin overpowered him.

Originally posted by Dolos
Moreover, that's a meaningless comparison because this isn't a sparring match. Furthermore, Dooku is probably the most skilled duelist here, followed by Sidious (who could switch between all 7 lightsaber forms at moment's notice). And Dooku used to lose his sparring matches with Yoda. Grevious himself, due to his anatomical advantages, is probably the most efficient lightsaber wielder here, but would be quickly cut down by any of these masters due their ability to supplement strength, endurance, stamina, dexterity, speed, and agility with the Force.

Not sure what your getting at here. Sound like your trying to say Dooku just isn't powerful enough to contend with Yoda/Sidious/Windu at all, and would get completely stomped in every way.

If that's what you think I suggest you rewatch AOTC, Star Wars Republic Heroes, and reread Obsession/Dark Rendezvous.

Originally posted by Dolos
If this battle were to occur, Sidious would recognize his disadvantage - that his ally is far from ready for such an encounter - and would be aware that he'd lose.

LOL So he could pretty much stomp Dooku in that state, but wouldn't even be ready for Windu? Please.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I've always interpreted it as they knew each other's moves so well, as described in the following lines.

Thing is if they knew each others moves that well, and were able to counter each other that well with their own moves, then they obviously were equally skilled.

Of course Skywalker in his Zone state would be tremendously more powerful.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
They were equals in that fight.

Kenobi won because he had the better "mind set," (as Dave Filoni would put it) in that fight.

The fight never displayed that Anakin's lightsaber abilities were impaired. In fact, it literally states that his style had become even more ferocious, and that he implored maneuvers that required even greater skill of Djem So than before.

And you seem to be underestimating Skywalker's tactical know-how. I suggest you watch the Clone Wars. It's usually Skywalker's tactical (and environmental) skills which save the day.

I concede that perhaps, overall, Anakin was a more skilled in battle than Kenobi, but I maintain that Dooku was the best duelist of the era.

???

He was better, but he got bested? Right.

He got the better of Dooku's hubris. Dooku underestimated him and was overpowered, not bettered in swordplay. Yes because whoever wins is always the better duelist. This is why Vitiate trashed Revan and co. You're obviously aware of that being a sort of ridiculous stance and maybe hoping I don't notice it as such?

Because Skywalker was too powerful. And he wasn't lacking in skill or technique either- Being as fine a Djem So user as Dooku had ever seen and besting the Count with a grappling move.

Yes, Skywalker overpowered him. Yes, he wasn't a poor swordsman. Yes, he beat Dooku with a grappling maneuver. Those are the facts. That does not mean he was overall the better duelist. By no means.

There's no reason Shatterpoint would not be effective during sparrng.

If there's any possible way Mace Windu could have bested Dooku without killing, without using TK or some other offensive technique, without leaving the dueling area, without using any object as a projectile, without any armed personnel affecting the course of the battle, without breaking the rules of sparring in any way, etc. than he would have picked it up and won right there upon finding a shatterpoint, yes. But do you see how incredibly limited shatterpoint's effectiveness is here??? Lastly, the biggest variable you're not taking into account, or maybe you are and hoping I don't notice it, is that Mace Windu didn't fully perfect Vapaad until after TPM. This was long before Vapaad made Windu more and more lethal the longer he stayed in battle.

Not to mention Dark Rendezvous also puts Dooku and Mace as equals, which is well post AOTC.

At one point Anakin states that Obi-Wan is as powerful as Master Windu, another source lists Windu as the greatest swordsman ever produced by the Jedi order (including Count Dooku), multiple sources state that Sidious was the most powerful Sith ever but this is of course partially true just as any other statement. As per how much raw Force energy any Sith had possession of in the past we know for a fact that it was Darth Nihilus after absorbing the energies of an entire species along with hundreds of Jedi.

Why you would take one statement as the end all be all, sum total, comparison of all their abilities put together, is beyond me.

And I doubt Sidious would stomp Dooku in a pure fencing match either.

That is why I put Sidious second to Windu between the four. Sidious beat Yoda, Windu beat Sidious, Dooku beat Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan beat Anakin and the list goes on, there are other factors that you're oversimplifying in your unfair analyses.

[/b]Unlikely. Yoda has fought Dooku. And he wasn't being overpowered to the extent ZonAkin overpowered him.[/b]

Again this is an unfair comparison. So you're saying that because it might take longer for Yoda to beat Dooku that Yoda is less powerful, less skilled, and less competent in combat than Anakin overall?

No, the only fair conclusion you can get from that fact is that Yoda's less up-close-and-personal Ataru wasn't as quick in ending fights as Anakin's aggressive Djem So style.

Not sure what your getting at here.

Windu beats Anakin faster than he disarmed Palpatine.

Sound like your trying to say Dooku just isn't powerful enough to contend with Yoda/Sidious/Windu at all, and would get completely stomped in every way.

He could contend with Yoda, I never claimed he couldn't.

If that's what you think I suggest you rewatch AOTC, Star Wars Republic Heroes, and reread Obsession/Dark Rendezvous.

Dooku retreated in AOTC so we can't get anything from that. In their second confrontation on Vjun, Dooku utilized the dark side energies present there to supplement his own power. Despite that fact, Dooku could not win, this confirms that even an amped Dooku cannot beat Yoda, and - culminated with the fact that he retreated during their first duel - Yoda would most definitely beat a regular Dooku.

LOL So he could pretty much stomp Dooku in that state, but wouldn't even be ready for Windu? Please.

Windu's style was far more lethal, Windu used Force speed, and the longer he fought the more ferocious he became due to the nature of the Vapaad style.

Still waiting for that evidence that you can get a nexusesque boost without actually being on the nexus... What is the precedent for any such theory? It's not enough to just say.. well he's the choosen one.. not good enough.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Still waiting for that evidence that you can get a nexusesque boost without actually being on the nexus... What is the precedent for any such theory? It's not enough to just say.. well he's the choosen one.. not good enough.

Originally posted by Dolos

At one point Anakin states that Obi-Wan is as powerful as Master Windu, another source lists Windu as the [b]greatest swordsman ever produced by the Jedi order (including Count Dooku)(...)
[/B]

Anakin's words are proof for you? Then read The Approaching Storm.
And if you think, that Windu is better fencier then Yoda, you should also read Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter and watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErU0Mk7dqfs

No I don't take Anakin's words literally, that was why I used that example.

Did I ever claim Windu was a better fencer than Yoda?

Why are these random old accounts trying to twist my argument!? lol

Also, what was said in that video doesn't hold much weight. Lol, what's been demonstrated is that, even though Mace Windu doesn't possess as much Force energy at his disposal as Yoda, even if he isn't considered as great of a Jedi, as accomplished a Jedi in a scholarly sense, he's probably the one you should pick in a fight as of AOTC.

Yup, saying Anakin is on Yoda's level just because he defeated Dooku faster than Yoda, is ABC logic. For one, Yoda lacks Anakin's reach to pull off Anakin's move of defeating Dooku. While Yoda is strong when enhancing his strength with the force, it's hard to put his full strength at use in a saber battle unless he has something high to stand on. For instance, during his saber duel with Sidious, Yoda overpowers Sidious in a saber lock while standing on the higher part of the platform; however, when him and Sidious were on even ground, Yoda's facial expression suggests he was having more trouble during the saber lock, while Sidious' laughter during said saber lock suggests he was having less trouble than when they saber locked on the platform.

This match is a toss up, unless we are talking about the Anakin who controlled the son and daughter. But the Anakin who killed Dooku is a bit over-rated, IMO. Dooku was defeated by Anakin because he lacked the strength to match Anakin's. This would not be the case with Yoda, as Yoda is a match for Sidious, who, considering his performance against Savage, is quite a bit stronger than Dooku. And what Yoda may lack in strength, he would make up for in speed and acrobats. Yoda vs Anakin, Yoda should take it.

If Anakin goes after Windu, well, Windu may be forced back by Anakin's physicality until he fully submerges in Vapaad as he did against Sidious, assuming that wasn't a one time thing. Windu vs Anakin can go either way.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yup, saying Anakin is on Yoda's level just because he defeated Dooku faster than Yoda, is