Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Zone Anakin actually defeated Dooku in an instant. The instant he "decided to win."He simply got more and more powerful during that fight until he was arguably the most powerful Jedi/Sith alive.
He would still PWN Mace even if Mace>Dooku. To argue otherwise is simply ridiculous.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERZone Anakin means Anakin when he's "In the Zone."
I.e. tapping into an incredible amount of his raw power, more than he usually does/is able to.
Since when was this officially defined in this manner?
Previously Zone Anakin only referred to Anakin when he stomped on Dooku, because that was the only time we ever saw him in the Zone.
However you are right that Mortis Zone Anakin is a different beast altogether, because he really would completely wreck Yoda and Mace together in that state.
If going by television cartoon series you can easily use Mace soloing a droid army but that is quickly shot down as "mythical."
I don't see how Mace soloing a droid army is mythical seeing as how Yoda, Plo, and Tiin soloed droid armies. It's a good feat but one capable by MANY other Jedi. Remember, its stated your Average Jedi=100battle droids. So a top tier like Mace could easily take down that much, and Yoda lifted a mountain and smashed ultra big ships a even better feat.
Originally posted by Based
Since when was this officially defined in this manner?
It's not "officially" defined. You won't find the term "Zone Anakin" in any official sources.
Originally posted by Based
Yes because that was one of the very few times Anakin was in a calm state of mind which used his raw power set mixed with rational tactics instead of emotion.
Ok.
Originally posted by Based
Zonakin doesn't exist outside of these boards, it's not necessarily a super saiyan power up.
Making one of the most powerful jedi and sith lords in history "a joke" and "useless" and overpowering the Son and Daughter does seem pretty super saiyan.
Originally posted by Based
If going by television cartoon series you can easily use Mace soloing a droid army but that is quickly shot down as "mythical."
Force powers are portrayed differently in different mediums. But fact is as far as the hierarchy of power goes, the Son and Daughter are well above Windu. Windu is actually approx on par with Dooku. He might have an edge over Dooku at most.
Dooku can solo armies of droids aswell. Seeing as how Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, Obi Wan Kenobi/Anakin Skywalker(well blindfolded) and Kit Fisto have.
And on Windu soloing a army.
Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
I don't see how Mace soloing a droid army is mythical seeing as how Yoda, Plo, and Tiin soloed droid armies. It's a good feat but one capable by MANY other Jedi. Remember, its stated your Average Jedi=100battle droids. So a top tier like Mace could easily take down that much, and Yoda lifted a mountain and smashed ultra big ships a even better feat.
"Zone" Anakin is really the dumbest concept. Just like the "Vaapad steals inner dark power to make you equal to any darksider" concept. Stover's writing really seems to make ideas like these pop up, but I really don't believe they're what he had in mind.
Anakin's surge of strength was through his fury--You could call that his "Zone" I guess, but it's not like he was in some god mode and could wipe out anyone. He often ends up fighting this way, and it's just a part of how he fights. Honestly, when I see "Zonakin" I just translate it into "Anakin".
Either way, I'm actually voting team 1. While I'd say Anakin's more powerful than Mace is, having defeated Dooku and all, Vaapad is definitely suited for turning Anakin's fury, which makes him so strong, into a weakness. This way, I can honestly see Mace having a crack at defeating Anakin.
And you know, Yoda and Sidious are just going to go at it until either Mace or Anakin comes out, and I'm gonna go with Mace.
Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Dooku can solo armies of droids aswell. Seeing as how Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, Obi Wan Kenobi/Anakin Skywalker(well blindfolded) and Kit Fisto have.And on Windu soloing a army.
And yet on Geonosis, nearly 215 of the best of the Jedi are slayn by something like a couple thousand battle droids, and Mace doesn't seem to be crushing them in droves.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
"Zone" Anakin is really the dumbest concept. Just like the "Vaapad steals inner dark power to make you equal to any darksider" concept. Stover's writing really seems to make ideas like these pop up, but I really don't believe they're what he had in mind.Anakin's surge of strength was through his fury--You could call that his "Zone" I guess, but it's not like he was in some god mode and could wipe out anyone. He often ends up fighting this way, and it's just a part of how he fights. Honestly, when I see "Zonakin" I just translate it into "Anakin".
Then how do you explain what he did on Mortis?
Or the fact that Dooku (someone much more powerful than Kenobi, one of the most powerful Jedi and Sith in the entire history of the Jedi/Sith, and someone capable of going toe to toe with frigging Yoda) stood no chance at all once Skywalker had entered the Zone?
It was that full fury but with a sense of "clarity." We've learned in the Clone Wars commentary that being the the "right mind set" makes a huge huge difference to a Jedi/Sith in a fight.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Either way, I'm actually voting team 1. While I'd say Anakin's more powerful than Mace is, having defeated Dooku and all, Vaapad is definitely suited for turning Anakin's fury, which makes him so strong, into a weakness. This way, I can honestly see Mace having a crack at defeating Anakin.
I'm confused. A second ago you were saying the whole Vapaad loop and Zone thing were stupid and probably not Stover's intentions.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
And yet on Geonosis, nearly 215 of the best of the Jedi are slayn by something like a couple thousand battle droids, and Mace doesn't seem to be crushing them in droves.
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This is true. The cw mini was an exaggerated medium compared to the movies.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
This is true. The cw mini was an exaggerated medium compared to the movies.
Sometimes I’m a bit irritated about the whole "exaggerated thingy" with CW mini, while TFU straight-up sh1ts on the movies in this regard, as do other series mentioned above.
That's why I would stick to the line of argument proposed long ago on these boards: different medium, different portrayals of the Force.
Do not discard CW mini simply because it's exaggerated. So is vast majority of EU, and we let it stand.
I get that this is especially hot debate for Windu soloing an army in CW mini, but not doing so on Geneosis. Well, my answer is that we see Vader performing some absolutely amazing Force feats in TFU or moving an incredible high speed in the novels, but then moving like an old man in OT.
We have to apply the same standard here. It can be that either movies go or EU goes, or that we embrace both.
Originally posted by Stigma
True, but so is TFU, DE, TOR & KOTOR, Legacy era....
It is indeed exaggerated in comparison to the movies, but to the EU… not so much.
(BTW. This is not directed to you DP, but rather my 5 cents I just wanted to throw in)Sometimes I’m a bit irritated about the whole "exaggerated thingy" with CW mini, while TFU straight-up sh1ts on the movies in this regard, as do other series mentioned above.
That's why I would stick to the line of argument proposed long ago on these boards: different medium, different portrayals of the Force.
Do not discard CW mini simply because it's exaggerated. So is vast majority of EU, and we let it stand.
I get that this is especially hot debate for Windu soloing an army in CW mini, but not doing so on Geneosis. Well, my answer is that we see Vader performing some absolutely amazing Force feats in TFU or moving an incredible high speed in the novels, but then moving like an old man in OT.
We have to apply the same standard here. It can be that either movies go or EU goes, or that we embrace both.
CW mini source massively contradicts with G-canon sources on "power aspect" of G-canon characters. In CW mini source, Anakin can influence the movement of a large battle-station while he cannot send Dooku packing with a Force push in G-canon sources. Similarly, Windu can solo whole droid armies in CW mini source while he cannot do that in G-canon sources; not even Yoda.
So which source should we trust for analyzing the power of PT era characters?
The situation of (strictly) EU characters is different from that of G-canon characters in comparison.
Originally posted by Stigma
True, but so is TFU, DE, TOR & KOTOR, Legacy era....
It is indeed exaggerated in comparison to the movies, but to the EU… not so much.
(BTW. This is not directed to you DP, but rather my 5 cents I just wanted to throw in)Sometimes I’m a bit irritated about the whole "exaggerated thingy" with CW mini, while TFU straight-up sh1ts on the movies in this regard, as do other series mentioned above.
That's why I would stick to the line of argument proposed long ago on these boards: different medium, different portrayals of the Force.
Do not discard CW mini simply because it's exaggerated. So is vast majority of EU, and we let it stand.
I get that this is especially hot debate for Windu soloing an army in CW mini, but not doing so on Geneosis. Well, my answer is that we see Vader performing some absolutely amazing Force feats in TFU or moving an incredible high speed in the novels, but then moving like an old man in OT.
We have to apply the same standard here. It can be that either movies go or EU goes, or that we embrace both.
I like you.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Uh huh, except Yoda and Sidious are also clearly exceptions as some of the most powerful beings ever and yet the shit they do in the movies is nowhere near as outlandish.Your argument fails.
Uh-huh, except Sidious blitzing 3 of the greatest swordsman in Jedi history, right?
Originally posted by Stigma
True, but so is TFU, DE, TOR & KOTOR, Legacy era....
It is indeed exaggerated in comparison to the movies, but to the EU… not so much.
(BTW. This is not directed to you DP, but rather my 5 cents I just wanted to throw in)Sometimes I’m a bit irritated about the whole "exaggerated thingy" with CW mini, while TFU straight-up sh1ts on the movies in this regard, as do other series mentioned above.
That's why I would stick to the line of argument proposed long ago on these boards: different medium, different portrayals of the Force.
Do not discard CW mini simply because it's exaggerated. So is vast majority of EU, and we let it stand.
I get that this is especially hot debate for Windu soloing an army in CW mini, but not doing so on Geneosis. Well, my answer is that we see Vader performing some absolutely amazing Force feats in TFU or moving an incredible high speed in the novels, but then moving like an old man in OT.
We have to apply the same standard here. It can be that either movies go or EU goes, or that we embrace both.
Oh yeah I completely agree with yours and Tempest's power scaling idea.
That when it comes to comparing EU feats, then sure count Mace (and Yoda's) supermen feats from the CW Mini.
But then we need to remember that ROTS Sidious is still >/= Yoda in the Force no matter how much greater Yoda's feats are in a different medium, and that Dooku is likely still >/= Mace in the Force no matter how much greater Mace's feats are in different medium, and that Sidious is till > Starkiller in the Force and Starkiller just slightly above Vader no matter how insane Starkiller's feats are.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDThe situation of (strictly) EU characters is different from that of G-canon characters in comparison.
That sounds kind of convenient for most your arguments.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Then how do you explain what he did on Mortis?Or the fact that Dooku (someone much more powerful than Kenobi, one of the most powerful Jedi and Sith in the entire history of the Jedi/Sith, and someone capable of going toe to toe with frigging Yoda) stood no chance at all once Skywalker had entered the Zone?
It was that full fury but with a sense of "clarity." We've learned in the Clone Wars commentary that being the the "right mind set" makes a huge huge difference to a Jedi/Sith in a fight.
I'm confused. A second ago you were saying the whole Vapaad loop and Zone thing were stupid and probably not Stover's intentions.
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This is true. The cw mini was an exaggerated medium compared to the movies.
1. Oh, I do not say this is incorrect. I'm merely saying that I think Stover's over-exaggeration in his writing is leading people off track. This "burst of clarity" correlates with his fury, and I'm doubtful that his abilities change so much when he tangos with the Dark Side, as he does this quite often. Counting him as a completely different combatant than usual is somewhat silly to me, even if he's better than usual. Quite frankly, his performance against Dooku isn't all that much better than their battle in Season 4, and the leeway could be due to his improvement between then and ROTS, considering it was an almost 2 year gap. This uber mode theory bugs me.
2. I'm not denying Vaapad's ability, I'm more referring to how people take it's mechanic. Vaapad can accept the fury of one's opponent, and use it to the user's advantage, but this is hardly different than what Sith Juyo practitioners can do. They feed off the negative emotions of their opponents such as fear or anger to gain strength--Vaapad does the same with different mechanic and greater effect. This is true.
What I'm referring to is some posts I see people make about "Feeding on Inner Darkness and Dark Power" and "Making you equal to any Darksider you face". Just because with this boost he reached an impasse with Sidious, it doesn't mean Vaapad just equals you out with any Darksider. It's just far too overhyped, and the text is too overthought. It does not steal the Dark Powers of your opponent or anything like that. This is what I'm talking about--I'm not just ignoring Vaapad's skillsets or advantages.
3. Glad you agree.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
1. Oh, I do not say this is incorrect. I'm merely saying that I think Stover's over-exaggeration in his writing is leading people off track. This "burst of clarity" correlates with his fury, and I'm doubtful that his abilities change so much when he tangos with the Dark Side, as he does this quite often. Counting him as a completely different combatant than usual is somewhat silly to me, even if he's better than usual. Quite frankly, his performance against Dooku isn't all that much better than their battle in Season 4, and the leeway could be due to his improvement between then and ROTS, considering it was an almost 2 year gap. This uber mode theory bugs me.
I don't know. It seems to me Dooku's force powers still gave him the edge during Season4 against Skywalker.
But the ROTS novel describes his force powers as useless. That is a big difference Imo. And he clearly was using his anger in that Season 4 episode.
And I'm not sure how muich he improved considering Dooku almost defeated him via that slam kick, while simultaneously stomping Kenobi.
And clearly Kenobi is not Dooku's equal in Sabers.
So I just find it highly unlikely that the same Fury that Dooku was useless against, Kenobi could handle for minutes on end.
Not to mention Sith Anakin stalemated Kenobi in the Force, and Kenobi was completely owned by Dooku in the Force. So why would Dooku's force powers be useless against a Fury driven Skywalker then?
There must have been a huge difference in power between Zone Anakin and Sith Anakin.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
2. I'm not denying Vaapad's ability, I'm more referring to how people take it's mechanic. Vaapad can accept the fury of one's opponent, and use it to the user's advantage, but this is hardly different than what Sith Juyo practitioners can do. They feed off the negative emotions of their opponents such as fear or anger to gain strength--Vaapad does the same with different mechanic and greater effect. This is true.What I'm referring to is some posts I see people make about "Feeding on Inner Darkness and Dark Power" and "Making you equal to any Darksider you face". Just because with this boost he reached an impasse with Sidious, it doesn't mean Vaapad just equals you out with any Darksider. It's just far too overhyped, and the text is too overthought. It does not steal the Dark Powers of your opponent or anything like that. This is what I'm talking about--I'm not just ignoring Vaapad's skillsets or advantages.
Yeah the exact mechanics of Vapaad are open to interpretation. It doesn't help that no canon source has confirmed how it works.