Exar Kun vs Dooku

Originally posted by SJones91109
I assure you I've played SWTOR a LOT more than you, have beaten it a LOT more times than you, and know the ins and outs of it a lot more than you. Vitiate's grand plan was theoretical. There was no proof that it would have succeeded. And it took more than Scourge's betrayal to put a dent in that plan. A LOT of things had to go against Vitiate, only one of them being Scourge.

Originally posted by SJones91109
The rebels destroyed a small percent of the Empire's military.

Originally posted by SJones91109
Yes, the hit and run tactics Vietnam War style definitely helped them destroy two death stars but they weren't "defeating" the Empire anytime soon. And you can't have Sidious out of the picture, this fight assumes everyone is involved. Stop trying to change the layout.

In addition, Sidious cannot be targeted for assassination? I know that you will say the same for Vitiate but the former is much more vulnerable the the latter in this aspect, if internal betrayals are ruled out.

Originally posted by SJones91109
HIGHLY debatable.

Originally posted by SJones91109
Yet the GE has superior leadership, superior technology, and superior numbers. You're making my case.

Vitiate have accomplished seemingly impossible tasks before. His grand plan was based on a thousand years worth of preparation so it would have worked since it is canonically stated that he would have transformed into the most powerful being in SW Universe in its aftermath

That small percentage involved "most formidable assets" of the Empire's military.

Sidious can be targeted for assassination. In-fact, he is much more vulnerable in this aspect then Vitiate.

No.

German superiority over USSR is overstated. USSR managed to develop some of the finest weaponry in the world even during WW2. Also, Germany forces could not cope well with Russian winter like Soviets could.

Originally posted by SJones91109
If what? About 50 different things went right? I would have made the NBA had I been:

A. Not white
B. Not Jewish
C. Not under 6"2

It would have worked had the Hero not fvcked everything up. It isn't theoretical and if his minions had succeeded he would have been able to cast it effectively.

Originally posted by SJones91109
"It would have worked if..." is not a valid argument. And his grand plan wasn't based on a thousand years of preparation. He didn't get the idea for a galaxy wide rituals a thousand years before he waged war.

Originally posted by SJones91109
Really? That's why there were tons of warlords that went off into their own sectors with all of their star destroyers, to rule?

Originally posted by SJones91109
Right, we've seen how successful that was. There's nothing suggesting he's any more vulnerable than Vitiate.

In contrast, Vitiate not just have his (personal) powerbase to protect him but he is unbeatable unless he is vulnerable due to some reason at personal capacity.

Originally posted by SJones91109
Yup. Good counter!

Originally posted by SJones91109
No, German superiority include technology as well as military. The Russians had nothing but overwhelming bodies to throw at them.

Russian Tanks were good enough to match German Tanks. Similarly, Russian artillery was good enough to match German artillery. In-fact, Russian equipment on the whole was very good by WW2 standards.

SWTOR Encyclopedia confirms my assessment. You may have played SWTOR a lot but you do not know much about its ground realities.

You are dodging my point.

A strike team of competent warriors would be sufficient for this task.

In contrast, Vitiate not just have his (personal) powerbase to protect him but he is virtually unbeatable unless he is vulnerable due to some factor at personal capacity

Germany was not able to unleash its FULL MIGHT on USSR due to several reasons stated before. Get your facts straight.

Nonsense.

Russian Tanks were good enough to match German Tanks. Similarly, Russian artillery was good enough to match German artillery. In-fact, Russian equipment on the whole was very good by WW2 standards.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If you want.

There's a traitor among the Jedi doing terrorist attacks. Ashoka gets framed (who is good friends with Barriss), then Barriss ends up being the traitor. She's disgusted by the Jedi leading the war. It all ends in a confrontation between Skywalker and Dark Side Barriss.

Skywalker of course wins, but with some difficulty. Dark Side Barriss seemed pretty bad ass.

You're right, this does bother me. Barriss Offee is depicted in Medstar as being pretty level-headed and not at all overpowered. But canon-disconnect is par for the course in SW, which is why I don't even bother to follow the series anymore.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Different strokes I guess. Act 1 SI was one of the worst acts in the game for me. Just tedious errant boy shit, though all the stuff to do with your legacy was epic. Then the whole class storyline after that was just a huge power fantasy. In all it was fun, but lacking in substance.

Are you kidding me? SI's rise to power is the most fun I've had in an RPG-like experience since... Well, ever. While I hated the grinding TOR demands to do story-only quests (which jump as much as 3-4 levels above where you are sometimes), the storyline was pretty awesome. And I got to electrocute peons left and right, including my own followers. I got to make Sith Lords my *****. How is this not the best experience of all time?

It just felt like Zash was sending me on errands. You just go from planet to plant finding artifacts for her ritual. A lot of aspects were fun and the pay off at the end was amazing, but eh, it mostly just felt like busy work.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Really?

http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Production/Russia/Lend-Lease.htm

No! Germans lost because of following reasons:-

1. Enormous amount of German resources were deployed in Europe and Africa to confront Allied Forces. USSR itself represented a gigantic target so Germany shouldn't have messed with it until or unless it would have defeated its other enemies in the war.
2. German forces were ill-equipped to deal with harsh climatic conditions of USSR; Russians took advantage of this situation.
3. Tactical blunders of Hitler; he often refused to listen to his competent generals.

^ While numbers ultimately favored the Russians, had the Germans focused on tactical targets instead of symbolic, political targets like Stalingrad, they would have strangled the Russian war machine or at least hampered it enough. But there's no real way they would have won with all those soldiers in other fronts. The German army won most of its fights outnumbered as much as 3 or 4 to 1 quite often, but it was simply being misused by a fool dictator.

Of note is the fiction novel Fatherland by Robert Harris depicts a WWII in which the Germans had one and became a pan-European state; they are still fighting guerilla warefare on the eastern front well into the 60s.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It just felt like Zash was sending me on errands. You just go from planet to plant finding artifacts for her ritual. A lot of aspects were fun and the pay off at the end was amazing, but eh, it mostly just felt like busy work.

You just described every quest in the game. Hell, the Jedi Masters have you doing stupid leg work as does every Senator, merchant, and useless NPC in the game. I liked the idea of assisting Zash because I knew the whole time I'd strike her down and take her place.

And I did.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You just described every quest in the game. Hell, the Jedi Masters have you doing stupid leg work as does every Senator, merchant, and useless NPC in the game. I liked the idea of assisting Zash because I knew the whole time I'd strike her down and take her place.

And I did.

But there was always a big point to it. The Knight is saving whole planets from superweapons, the Consular is saving Masters from a plague, the Trooper is tracking down rogue soldiers etc. Finding components for a ritual just wasn't very compelling to me.

Originally posted by SJones91109
Your assessment is "it would have worked if...." That isn't an argument.

Vitiate's preparation (to make his ultimate plan a success) was actually complete prior to him launching the Great Galactic War. In-fact, he started this war to get the opportunity to execute his ultimate plan in secrecy.

Get the memo?

Originally posted by SJones91109
I'm actually answering it directly. The rebels didnt do anything other than destroy two death stars. The Empire collapsed on itself and that took nearly a decade.

The Rebels had won a substantial victory at Yavin, one that caused many more systems to reject the Empire’s rule.

From Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Warfare

In-addition, more tactics were at work:

To keep the Imperial Starfleet off balance, the Alliance launched large-scale raids on such targets as Reytha. That presented the navy with a dilemma. If they concentrated their forces on chasing the Rebels off Yavin, Mothma’s forces might launch a devastating raid somewhere else, making the Empire look impotent. On the other hand, if the Empire brought insufficient forces to bear, Mothma might intervene in force, winning a second Battle of Yavin and inflicting a fresh humiliation on the navy. The sheer size of the Empire made it vulnerable; even scattered Rebel victories undermined the belief that it was all-powerful. And now, with the Senate dissolved and the Death Star destroyed, such doubts were dangerous to the New Order.

From Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Warfare

The loss of Death Star convinced GGE leadership that it needed superb dreadnaughts such as Executor-class to overwhelm any kind of opposition in space engagements but GGE lost even an Executor-class dreadnaught during the battle of Endor.

As I have stressed before, leadership is vital for success in warfare:-

Ackbar’s leadership enabled the Alliance Fleet to win at Endor, and allowed the New Republic Defense Force to triumph over repeated Imperial challenges in the years that followed.

From Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Warfare

I will not deny the fact that GGE have its share of victories as well but its actual effectiveness is overstated. A bulk of its military force was utilized for occupational roles. This limited its offensive options.

I also realize the fact GGE remained largely intact after its loss in the Battle of Endor and the rebellion failed to properly capitalize on this victory in the aftermath but this was due to the latter's extremely limited resources. In contrast to this rebellion, Vitiate's Empire was much more resourceful. In-fact, Vitiate's Empire came up with a much better alternative to Executor-class dreadnaught project as well; the Harrower-class Desolator.

In-fact, Palpatine realized the importance of having extremely powerful dark side practitioners on his side and this is why he wanted Luke to become his apprentice. Palpatine actually orchestrated the Battle of Endor for this objective. He understood that extremely powerful dark side practitioners would help him succeed in all of his plans during the absence of the Jedi Order. In contrast, Vitiate's Empire excelled in this area but it was unfortunate in the context that it had to contend with fully prepared and immensely resourceful Republic and Jedi Order in direct fashion.

Originally posted by SJones91109
Unless he is vulnerable. Great argument. And Palpatine is unbeatable unless he is vulnerable. Now you're just being redundant.

Originally posted by SJones91109
My facts are straight. I don't believe the Germans had at any point, more numbers than they did at Stalingrad, if we're referring to a single battle. That doesn't bode well for the entirety of a war. While I agree to a certain extent that the Germans would have destroyed the Soviet Union in terms of its infrastructure had it not focused elsewhere, ultimately they would have lost the war due to the numbers game.

Originally posted by SJones91109
Nonsense. Russian tanks didn't compare to German tanks, same goes with artillery.

Russian tanks eventually surpassed German tanks, although by that point it was irrelevant. The mobilized Red Army and the largest artillery force in the world kind of won the battle anyways.

Yup.

I'm still going to get to your post sometime, SM, but I just wanted to make a quick comment on the topic of the thread.

The way I see it, is Kun is not necessarily more powerful than Dooku, he just excels in an area that Dooku showed no affinity for (sorcery), so it may be a who hits who first. Dooku is a very potent telekinetic, and he has easily overpowered other extremely gifted telekinetic users with this power. I mean, we can assume that Kun is better with TK than people like Ventress or Kenobi, although he has no feats with this power to suggest it that I'm aware of. Likewise, we can assume Dooku is knowledgeable enough to fight off many of Kun's sorcerous attacks because Dooku has studied holocrons created by powerful sith sorcerers (Andeddu, for example), but I doubt anyone would accept this due to the lack of feats on Dooku's part. So I don't see why we should assume that Kun can shrug off a direct TK attack from a TK user of Dooku's caliber unless he has comparable TK feats or fought off TK attacks from opponents who are comparable to Dooku in this area (does he/has he?). Now, Kun has bigger arsenal of techniques than Dooku on account of being a sorcerer; but the question is, can he use any of these attacks before Dooku can use his TK?

Admittedly, I don't come close to knowing all of Kun's feats, but I am aware of plenty of the impressive ones, and most of the ones I'm aware of is sorcery.

I'd say Kun is more powerful than Dooku myself. Kun was said by Anderson to be more powerful than Naga Sadow, Freedon Nadd or Marka Ragnos and is generally held as being massively powerful in various accolades.

I'd count the Count better than those three too, though.

I do think I agree on the point of Exar Kun being a cut above Dooku, though.

I wouldn't. Freedon Nadd killed more Jedi with his blaster than any lightsaber in history (including Tulak Hords 1000 plus killcount) and don't forget that Kun's amulet was once Naga Sadows. And Marka Ragnos was even more powerful than both of them.

I still laugh at the whole "Nadd's blaster killed more Jedi than any saber" nonsense. That along with Hord killing 1000 jedi has to be the dumbest material in the mythos.

Marka Ragnos had a pet Terentatek which he beat nightly. :V