Geonisis isn't an example of the Jedi during war. They were in an impossible tactical situation with no support. In actual warfare the Jedi function as highly effective commanders and one man strike teams with infantry backing them up. One Jedi can turn the tide of an entire engagement. This is made clear in the Clone Wars material.
Originally posted by ares834
Good rebuttal. But we saw what happened at Geonosis. The Jedi were nearly annihilated by a force that consisted of no force users except Dooku.
Even if that were so, you still conceded 1 average Jedi = 10 battle droids.
In ToR, those 990,000 = 9,900,000. And that's only your average Sith.
Powerful Sith are worth a shitload more than 10 mere troopers.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Geonisis isn't an example of the Jedi during war. They were in an impossible tactical situation with no support. In actual warfare the Jedi function as highly effective commanders and one man strike teams with infantry backing them up. One Jedi can turn the tide of an entire engagement. This is made clear in the Clone Wars material.
And, once again, these singular Jedi that can turn an entire battle around are the Anakins and Windu not exactly your average Jedi. Heck, in the Hope trailer we see Republic troops mowing down Sith Warriors. And yes, the Jedi/Sith are quite skilled in less conventional warfare but in these types of engagements numbers are typically of less use.
Originally posted by ares834
And, once again, these singular Jedi that can turn an entire battle around are the Anakins and Windu not exactly your average Jedi. Heck, in the Hope trailer we see Republic troops mowing down Sith Warriors. And yes, the Jedi/Sith are quite skilled in less conventional warfare but in these types of engagements numbers are typically of less use.
It isn't just singular Jedi like Kenobi or the Council members, average Jedi are far more effective than you are giving them credit for. And actually the Sith beat the troops in the Hope trailer and these were Jace Malcom and Havoc Squad, the best troops in the Republic. Only Satele and the Jedi coming saves the day.*
If the Sith really did outnumber the Jedi they would completely run rampant over them and the Empire would beat the shit out of the Republic. Since this is not true obviously they have comparable numbers. Your argument doesn't make a lick of sense in arguing that the Republic troops are the ones winning the war while the Jedi are superfluous when the Imperial military is superior and evidence shows that its the Jedi that are turning the tides in the war.
* And then Shan and Malcom totally boned.
Jedi vs a Hundred Non-Force users?
It can probably be done tactically. But not when surrounded in an open arena like in AOTC, or taken completely by surprise like in ROTS, or ambushed without a weapon like Count Dooku was by 30 pirates.
Still even fighting tactically in a more useful environment, armed and prepared, if it's a hundred troops vs 1 average Jedi, I'd put my money on the troops.
Originally posted by Nephthys
It isn't just singular Jedi like Kenobi or the Council members, average Jedi are far more effective than you are giving them credit for.
Proof? Average Jedi seem nothing more than mooks for hero characters. I certainly have not seen them turn battles around on their lonesome.
Originally posted by Nephthys
If the Sith really did outnumber the Jedi they would completely run rampant over them and the Empire would beat the shit out of the Republic. Since this is not true obviously they have comparable numbers.
Like the Republic rolled over the CIS? Despite your arguments to the contrary, superior numbers have been shown to defeat and hold back Jedi.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Your argument doesn't make a lick of sense in arguing that the Republic troops are the ones winning the war while the Jedi are superfluous when the Imperial military is [b]superior and evidence shows that its the Jedi that are turning the tides in the war. [/B]
The Imperial Troops may be superior; however, they are fighting on foreign soil and they could still be outnumbered by Republic Troops. Furthermore, as I said earlier, the Sith fight amongst themselves almost as much as they fight the Jedi. Just look at the TOR storylines, the Sith are killing almost as many Sith as they are Jedi.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Jedi vs a Hundred Non-Force users?It can probably be done tactically. But not when surrounded in an open arena like in AOTC, or taken completely by surprise like in ROTS, or ambushed without a weapon like Count Dooku was by 30 pirates.
Still even fighting tactically in a more useful environment, armed and prepared, if it's a hundred troops vs 1 average Jedi, I'd put my money on the troops.
I'd agree, though most of the fighting in TOR is done in cities or forests. Places with a lot of cover. You don't see much conventional large-scale army fighting, is what I'm saying.
The fact is that being able to take down a Jedi or Sith is a big deal in TOR and is treated as the big boast for the most elite troops in the game. If Jedi/Sith were no match for conventional soldiers that wouldn't be the case. As I said before, the thing about Jedi is that while they can be overwhelmed, they excel in exactly the kind of fighting seen in TOR. Taking on one squad at a time a Jedi will kill hundreds of troops over the course of the war. With the best taking out thousands.
Originally posted by ares834
Proof? Average Jedi seem nothing more than mooks for hero characters. I certainly have not seen them turn battles around on their lonesome.
Um, no shit they're mooks for heroes. That doesn't make them mooks compared to ordinary troops. In the SW campaign its noted that the chances of an average Sith soloing a base is good iirc. Also in SWTORE its said that without the Jedi, the Republic is ****ed. But yeah, the Jedi and Sith are completely negligible. 😬
Theres the Battle of Bothawui, where just a hundred Jedi were able to lead a Republic force of 4000 strong to defeat an Imperial invasion of 50,000.
Also there is the Battle of Corellia, where the outer rim Jedi + the Barsen'thor turned the tide against the Imperial occupation. A battle that cost 10% of all the Imperial military. So whats 10% of a few million Sith? Plus a few billion Imps? Wow, those "few thousand" Jedi must have really kicked some ass, huh? 😉
Then there the fact that its noted in Banes era that the ordinary troops were irrelevent compared to the Force users. The battle of Ruusan decided the war.
Or hell, just Lukes one shot in a million from ANH completely saving the Rebellion. Or Anakin wiping out the Trade Federation army in TPM? In fact, hasn't it been said that one lone Jedi can easily take over a planet?
And as I said, there are countless examples of Jedi heroism saving the day during the Clone Wars. I barely keep up with the CW material (which I find to be exceedingly dull and overexposed) and even I know that.
Finally theres my above point about the rarity of troops killing Sith in the game. And even then its the very elite who manage it. And even then, the very, very best in Havoc Squad still got pwned by Malgus' Sith in the Hope trailer.
Originally posted by ares834
Like the Republic rolled over the CIS? Despite your arguments to the contrary, superior numbers have been shown to defeat and hold back Jedi.
Yeah, and the Sith have the vastly superior numbers according to you. And there is no indication that the Republic military is larger than the Imperial one. And yet it is the Republic and Jedi who are winning. So I guess either you're wrong or you're wrong.
Originally posted by ares834
The Imperial Troops may be superior; however, they are fighting on foreign soil and they could still be outnumbered by Republic Troops. Furthermore, as I said earlier, the Sith fight amongst themselves almost as much as they fight the Jedi. Just look at the TOR storylines, the Sith are killing almost as many Sith as they are Jedi.
'Could' be outnumbered? That isn't a very good argument. Plus even if they are, the Imperial military is supplemented by battle droids. The Imperial military is strong enough that at the start of the game Satele and the Republic generals are convinced that they'd lose a war. And the Sith lose a lot more to the Republic and Jedi than they do to themselves.
Originally posted by Nephthys
That has nothing to do with me finding the era boring and unengaging.
Obviously, given your fetish for sub-par storylines and video games that hemorrhage players.
Just stating the immutable truth: the works associated with the CW era are infinitely better (Jedi Trial notwithstanding). Probably because it deals with more important events and characters, so all the cool authors want something to do with it.
Just my theory anyway.
I'm just not partial to any of the characters, I find the droids/seperatists to be crap enemies and the movies its based around shit in the extreme. Plus I already know what happens. Ooh, is Obi-Wan gonna dieeee? Of course he ****ing isn't. The two biggest things are that its waaaay overexposed, and its just not a very interesting war. Its just droids vs clones and Jedi vs Dooku, or Grevious or Ventress or Maul or Savage. I don't care about any of those characters. And I really prefer the settings with actual Sith in them. Or at least real threats. Not retarded battle droids and cowardly seperatists or ****ing General Grievous. And epic conflicts, not faceless droids vs clones. Its why I loved the CW mini so much, because it made it epic. Sure, TOR might not be as well written, but at any point I could be fighting giant monsters, or ancient Sith Lords or battling a forgetten race or uncovering sprawling conspiracies or dueling a Sith for the fate of a planet. Its just so much more fantastic.
Yeah, DR is well written but.. I don't give a shit about Yoda. And don't give a shit about Dooku. I hate Dooku! He's just a prick and he's not even that interesting or threatening as a villain.
No, its probably because half of all materiel deals with that shitty war. God damn do they need to move on to a different era.
Oh wait they are, the Dark Times again. UUUURGH!
The bad guy actually wins in TCW; not sure how you can get more threatening than that.
But different strokes and all that. DR is a wonderful character piece that has more nuance and complexity than anything TOR has to offer.
Not to say that TCW is without flaws (because lol it's not), but it's got plenty of highs to make up for its many lows.
You seem disappointed and indeed you should be. TOR had its shot: an unprecedented budget, the full power of the LucasFilm/EA machines behind it. And it broke records initially. Unfortunately, it broadly failed to deliver.
The ironic thing is that TOR's weakness is its own lack of identity. It aped far too much creatively from the core saga and TCW and never managed to stand on its own two feet.
It's a real shame, too.
But its not because I already know whats going to happen. I already know they're going to win and I know nothings going to happen to any of these characters. In DR the whole book builds up to the Yoda/Dooku confrontation with no tension because neither is going to die or get seriously injured.
Yeah DR is great and all but the fact is that its completely unnecessary. Nothing of significance occurs in that book. And thats the problem with the entire CW era. It all feels like padding between AotC and RotS. Thats why I felt no need to watch it. Because there is no need to watch it. I don't care that Mauls come back because absolutely nothings going to come of it.
You know how I would do a Clone Wars cartoon? I'd ****ing kill Anakin. Boom, end of season 1. Final shot, Obi-Wan and Ahsoka gaping in horror while complete silence plays. That would make people tune in. That would create some tension. The gloves are off now. And you'd get rid of the worst aspect of the PT. My doors always open George. 👆
What? I'm not disappointed. I ****ing love TOR. I just went back to my Warrior and its every bit as well written as I remember. Hell, I'd say a few scenes I just played are up there with the best CW stuff.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Um, no shit they're mooks for heroes. That doesn't make them mooks compared to ordinary troops. In the SW campaign its noted that the chances of an average Sith soloing a base is good iirc. Also in SWTORE its said that without the Jedi, the Republic is ****ed. But yeah, the Jedi and Sith are completely negligible. 😬
Of course they would be. Without the HoT the Emperor would have killed everyone.
And where did I say that an average Jedi is a mook compared to ordinary troops? Seems to be a strawman on your part.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres the Battle of Bothawui, where just a hundred Jedi were able to lead a Republic force of 4000 strong to defeat an Imperial invasion of 50,000.
Which has as much to do with tactics as it did with the Jedi. The Imperials were just throwing their masses into a trenched in army of course they would be massacred.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also there is the Battle of Corellia, where the outer rim Jedi + the Barsen'thor turned the tide against the Imperial occupation. A battle that cost 10% of all the Imperial military. So whats 10% of a few million Sith? Plus a few billion Imps? Wow, those "few thousand" Jedi must have really kicked some ass, huh? 😉
I'd need more context than this. For all I know, the Republic may have already been stalemating the Imperials and an elite group of Jedi simply tipped the scales.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Or hell, just Lukes one shot in a million from ANH completely saving the Rebellion. Or Anakin wiping out the Trade Federation army in TPM? In fact, hasn't it been said that one lone Jedi can easily take over a planet?
And Hylo Visz broke the Mandalorian Blockade saving the galaxy. A singular warrior can change the fate of the galaxy, but they don't necessarily have to be a force user; non-force users can be just as critical as the Jedi.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And as I said, there are countless examples of Jedi heroism saving the day during the Clone Wars. I barely keep up with the CW material (which I find to be exceedingly dull and overexposed) and even I know that.
And there are numerous examples of non-force users saving the day as well. Like in Rookies were a group of Clone Troopers thwart a Separatist invasion of Kamino.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Finally theres my above point about the rarity of troops killing Sith in the game. And even then its the very elite who manage it. And even then, the very, very best in Havoc Squad still got pwned by Malgus' Sith in the Hope trailer.
Except they won. 😐
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, and the Sith have the vastly superior numbers according to you. And there is no indication that the Republic military is larger than the Imperial one. And yet it is the Republic and Jedi who are winning. So I guess either you're wrong or you're wrong.
Other factors play in as well. Such as the Sith infighting, tactics, "home field" advantage, etc...
Ultimately, I'm not seeing how millions of Sith is a somehow unbeatable force that can only be matched by millions of Jedi. After all, we've already seen that suitably large numbers can make up for a massive numerical difference of force users. Ignore it all you want, but that one irrefutable fact remains. After all, 2 Sith destroyed 10000 Jedi.