Exar Kun vs Dooku

Started by ares83427 pages

I think I'm not getting my point across accurately. I also don't want to go through another point by point debate. I hate those. So if you want to reply to my previous post; go ahead. But I probably won't bother to reply back.

Anyway...

My point is while Jedi/Sith can and have turned around the course of a galactic war it is only the best-of-the-best that go around assassinating Emperors and serving as exemplar leaders. The average Jedi and Sith is typically portrayed as nothing more than a grunt with a lightsaber. Sure, they can cut down a few dozen men but that isn't going to change the course of a war.

That's not to say an average Jedi can't become instrumental to a war effort, in certain circumstances they could. But any person, with the proper circumstances, could become a pivotal hero.

Originally posted by ares834
Of course they would be. Without the HoT the Emperor would have killed everyone.

And where did I say that an average Jedi is a mook compared to ordinary troops? Seems to be a strawman on your part.

Just one of the many great features of Jedi: Saving everyone from crazy galaxy-destroying threats. Or superweapons!

You didn't, but your argument was that the average Jedi is crap since they're just mooks compared to big name heroes and thus are unable to significantly contribute to battles.

Originally posted by ares834
Which has as much to do with tactics as it did with the Jedi. The Imperials were just throwing their masses into a trenched in army of course they would be massacred.

Agreed. Yet only half the credit is still credit enough since thats an amazing victory.

Originally posted by ares834
I'd need more context than this. For all I know, the Republic may have already been stalemating the Imperials and an elite group of Jedi simply tipped the scales.

They weren't. The Empire completely conquers Corellia in the Empire campaign, almost wipes out the Green Jedi forces there and at the start of Republic Corellia they Imps have them completely boxed into the spaceport and surrounding area. The Imperial Agent storyline also has you tip off the Empire of the Republics counterattack, so they were well prepared for the Republic.

Originally posted by ares834
And Hylo Visz broke the Mandalorian Blockade saving the galaxy. A singular warrior can change the fate of the galaxy, but they don't necessarily have to be a force user; non-force users can be just as critical as the Jedi.

Hylo Visz did that through convincing the underworld to help. She had a small fleet with her and still needed to be bailed out by the Republic. A Jedi by themselves can achieve a significant victory through just being superhuman with the Force.

Originally posted by ares834
And there are numerous examples of non-force users saving the day as well. Like in Rookies were a group of Clone Troopers thwart a Separatist invasion of Kamino.

Yeah, but the average non-force user isn't going to achieve nearly as much as the average Force user since they can't deflect blast bolts, take on squads by themselves, mind trick people or use any of the other powers available to a Jedi.

Originally posted by ares834
Except they won. 😐

Sure.

Because a Jedi saved them. 😉

Originally posted by ares834
Other factors play in as well. Such as the Sith infighting, tactics, "home field" advantage, etc...

Ultimately, I'm not seeing how millions of Sith is a somehow unbeatable force that can only be matched by millions of Jedi. After all, we've already seen that suitably large numbers can make up for a massive numerical difference of force users. Ignore it all you want, but that one irrefutable fact remains. After all, 2 Sith destroyed 10000 Jedi.

None of that would be close to equal to the retarded 1000 to 1 size advantage you're arguing. 🙄

Because they are. Millions of Sith will decimate a Republic army when backed up by their own military. There is absolutely no possible way the Jedi could be winning the war if they are as outnumbered as you say they are. 50 Sith could land on every Republic world, fight through and turn off the planetary shields then have a fleet decimate the planet from orbit. And theres nothing the Republic solders could do about it.

In the interest of time I'm only go to respond to a few points.

Originally posted by Nephthys
None of that would be close to equal to the retarded 1000 to 1 size advantage you're arguing. 🙄

Except it's not merely Jedi vs Sith as I've said several times before.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because they are. Millions of Sith will decimate a Republic army when backed up by their own military. There is absolutely no possible way the Jedi could be winning the war if they are as outnumbered as you say they are. 50 Sith could land on every Republic world, fight through and turn off the planetary shields then have a fleet decimate the planet from orbit. And theres nothing the Republic solders could do about it.

😕

How are 50 Sith going to be able to fight through an army of Republic troops on their lonesome? Plus, I'd assume, the Republic would be smart enough to defend their planetary shields with heavy weapons and the like.

Originally posted by ares834
I think I'm not getting my point across accurately. I also don't want to go through another point by point debate. I hate those. So if you want to reply to my previous post; go ahead. But I probably won't bother to reply back.

Anyway...

My point is while Jedi/Sith can and have turned around the course of a galactic war it is only the best-of-the-best that go around assassinating Emperors and serving as exemplar leaders. The average Jedi and Sith is typically portrayed as nothing more than a grunt with a lightsaber. Sure, they can cut down a few dozen men but that isn't going to change the course of a war.

That's not to say an average Jedi can't become instrumental to a war effort, in certain circumstances they could. But any person, with the proper circumstances, could become a pivotal hero.

And thats ridiculous. The Jedi and Sith are the most important aspects of Star Wars. Not just in how they shape the galaxy but in terms of their contributions to battle as well. The Kotor era Republic military was weak because they Jedi were just that effective that they could get away with relying on them. And it showed when Revan and a handful of padawans turned the Mandalorian war around.

In terms of individual fighting a Jedi can kill dozens of lesser troops in a single battle. You are continually only looking at their worth on the small scale. On a war-wide scale the Jedi and Sith significantly influence the results. A dozen kills per fight translates into hundreds over the war. A million Jedi can become hundreds of millions of kills. And significant kills, performing actions to change the tides of battles, like capturing key areas, planting explosives, neutralising threats, taking down the enemy command etc. In the Clone Wars the CIS had quadrillions of droids and the Republic were still winning because they had the Jedi. And yes, Jedi and Sith war heroes can change the face of the whole war.

In terms of this specific case an Imperial army led by Sith will defeat one without a Jedi every time. A force with more Sith than the enemy has Jedi will defeat them because regular troops are outmatched by Sith. The Sith by themselves might represent a small percentage of the fighting, but that percentage will and has changed the course of battles when pared with the imperial military.

And all this time you've speculated that the Republic could just be bigger in terms of miltary strength but I hate to break it to you but the only concrete indication of size is them being described as 'millions' of troops.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In the Clone Wars the CIS had quadrillions of droids and the Republic were still winning because they had the Jedi.

That is... very simplistic. There are a number of reasons that the Republic ultimately "won" the war: an exponentially larger industrial-base, militarily units pound-for-pound superior to those of the CIS, and the fact that the war's grand architect wanted the CIS to lose.

TCW-the-series focuses explicitly on Republic victories, but per the ROTS opening crawl, the CIS were battering the hell out of the Republic.

Originally posted by ares834
In the interest of time I'm only go to respond to a few points.

Except it's not merely Jedi vs Sith as I've said several times before.

Sure, its an army + a 1000 vs an army + 1. Gee, I wonder which will win.

Originally posted by ares834
😕

How are 50 Sith going to be able to fight through an army of Republic troops on their lonesome? Plus, I'd assume, the Republic would be smart enough to defend their planetary shields with heavy weapons and the like.

Why would they fight through an army? Why would they have to fight through an army? There isn't going to be an army in their way, just the troops between them and the shields.

We've already seen this happen with the Sack of Coruscant.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That is... very simplistic. There are a number of reasons that the Republic ultimately "won" the war: an exponentially larger industrial-base, militarily units pound-for-pound superior to those of the CIS, and the fact that the war's grand architect wanted the CIS to lose.

TCW-the-series focuses explicitly on Republic victories, but per the ROTS opening crawl, the CIS were battering the hell out of the Republic.

Yes, I'm aware of that. But the Republic was still ludicrously outnumbered. I believe you said it was 100 to 1? Superior troops don't make up for numbers like that. It was the Jedi that made up the difference.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, I'm aware of that. But the Republic was still ludicrously outnumbered. I believe you said it was 100 to 1? Superior troops don't make up for numbers like that. It was the Jedi that made up the difference.

It wasn't me.

But in TCW's first episode, Dooku claims to Katuunko that CIS droids outnumber the clones 100:1, yes.

But considering all the Republic's military assets, I doubt their numerical disadvantage is that profound.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And thats ridiculous. The Jedi and Sith are the most important aspects of Star Wars. Not just in how they shape the galaxy but in terms of their contributions to battle as well. The Kotor era Republic military was weak because they Jedi were just that effective that they could get away with relying on them. And it showed when Revan and a handful of padawans turned the Mandalorian war around.

In terms of individual fighting a Jedi can kill dozens of lesser troops in a single battle. You are continually only looking at their worth on the small scale. On a war-wide scale the Jedi and Sith significantly influence the results. A dozen kills per fight translates into hundreds over the war. A million Jedi can become hundreds of millions of kills. And significant kills, performing actions to change the tides of battles, like capturing key areas, planting explosives, neutralising threats, taking down the enemy command etc. In the Clone Wars the CIS had quadrillions of droids and the Republic were still winning because they had the Jedi. And yes, Jedi and Sith war heroes can change the face of the whole war.

In terms of this specific case an Imperial army led by Sith will defeat one without a Jedi every time. A force with more Sith than the enemy has Jedi will defeat them because regular troops are outmatched by Sith. The Sith [b]by themselves might represent a small percentage of the fighting, but that percentage will and has changed the course of battles when pared with the imperial military.

And all this time you've speculated that the Republic could just be bigger in terms of miltary strength but I hate to break it to you but the only concrete indication of size is them being described as 'millions' of troops. [/B]

Revan's victory against the Mandalorians had less to do with the Jedi fighting and more to do with the fact that it suddenly had competent leaders. That's why Canderous is continuously praising Revan's strategy and tactics and hardly, if ever, mentions the Jedi's combat prowess.

Once again, the Jedi performing key roles are hardly ever your average Jedi, who never are portrayed as vastly superior to even an average solider. Frankly I have a hard time believing that an average Jedi that can get swamped by a dozen droids is somehow able to capture a key area on their own.

Uh... no. We've seen forces of Sith/Jedi being routed by non-force users before.

And, if the Republic truly does only have "millions" of troops then, yeah, I'd be presumably wrong.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sure, its an army + a 1000 vs an army + 1. Gee, I wonder which will win.

Depends on countless factors.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why would they fight through an army? Why would they have to fight through an army? There isn't going to be an army in their way, just the troops between them and the shields.

We've already seen this happen with the Sack of Coruscant.

So why don't the Sith do this always? Unless, you believe, the Jedi defend the shields of all the planets save Coruscant.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yep. Just like how Plagueis, who atomizes Maladians, probably won't replicate that with Kun. What works against Massassi and Maladians isn't guaranteed or even likely imho to work against a Sith Lord the caliber of Dooku.

First off, you comparison is flawed, given that all of the Massassi are dark side users, and one should assume that they are capable of mustering at least some force defense.
Second thing is: Even if Dooku had some nice force defence (and being capable to deflect lightning, even if its just his own, shows at much), where is his expertise in countering Sith magic attacks? And why would he be capable of defending against the mere amount of power unleashed by those amulets?


Not to mention that those feats occurred within the Massassi temple and the text notes that "tremendous energies" are focused within the ruin.

I'm not sure what text you are referring to. The narration in the comics makes pretty clear where the power of that blasts comes from:

"Exar Kun feels his rage multiply a thousand times...then a hundred thousand times...What Exar Kun understands is that the dark rage that fills his own heart can be focused in this amulet, unleashing tremendous energies.[...]With every pulse of his anger, the amulet doubles the power of its discharge."

I don't see any mentioning of the temple energies used here. And while I'm already at that: I think you give far to much credit to dark side / force nexus spots, considering their actual relevance to the power of individuals acting at such places.


I don't consider Keto the equal or peer of Dooku.

In overall ability? Certainly not. But summoning Sith magic that is capable of turning people into charred skeletons in an instant is nothing to sneer at.


Where has the sever Force thing ever been successfully used in combat?

Since the narrator makes sure of noticing, that Odan-Urr had utilized the technique when fighting the remaining Sith of the Ancient Sith Empire, and Odan-Urr pretty much says the same when teaching Nomi, I would suggest that he did employ that technique successfully in combat. Hell. Why else would he even attempt to do that?


Well, I didn't say he would. I said he'd make it a tough fight; an assessment which I stand beside.

An assessment that I can't agree with, when it comes to a force contest.


Apparently somebody else wasn't reading: I said Starkiller "decimates" Kun in feats but that I'd give the fight to the former after a "tough" fight with the latter. Clearly I'm not basing my decision on feats alone.

Mea culpa.


No.

The encyclopedia and Fact File entries are both written past-tense. The fact file suggests Kun still possesses the title of strongest Sith whereas the more recently-released source says the title is one he used to possess but no longer does. Probably in light of the more recent (in and out of universe) sources that confer that title to Sidious.

My dear Tempest.
First: The basic assumption you are making is already flawed. There is no "title" for the "most powerful and dangerous" Sith Lord. Not a podestal to place a single figure on. In fact, the commentary of LFL officials I've brought to the table multiple times now flat out deny such a clear cut position to exist.

Second: Your interpretation is correct insofar, as the "once" suggests that Kun was - without question - the most powerful and dangerous Sith Lord at a time, where the Fact File doesn't make such destinction. Yet, and this is a little problem - the "once" refers to something in the past as does the past-tense. Meaning: If you want to interprete it the way you like, you can't say when Kun lost this title and to whom, without presenting any evidence from the very same source labeling a new person on that supposted "position", with that supposed "title".

So, as I see it, this was a correct of a non-ambigous statement in order to create one more in line with the LFL policy on such questions: an ambigious one. Because, you see, that statement with the "once" doesn't just mean, that Kun was not superior to all Sith Lords who came after him. It also opens the possibility that he wasn't superior to the ones who came before, if one suggests that the "once" does refer precisely to the time of his rule.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Where has the sever Force thing ever been successfully used in combat?

Uh, he successfully uses it against Exar Kun. 😬

I'm not seeing how Kun shrugging off magic attacks means that he can shrug off TK attacks from a TK user of Dooku's caliber, unless he rivals Dooku in TK. Kun can shrug off sorcery because he likely has an answer to sorcery on account of being a gifted sorcerer. Why are we comparing apples to oranges?

Also, The Jedi Academy Training Manuel states that a dark sider's powers increases when on a dark side nexus, so why wouldn't this be the case with Kun?

Exar Kun held 12 Jedi in a choke hold in Dark Apprentice. Is that not a comparable TK-feat to Dooku?

Besides, the power of Force Defenses aren't attributed to how good your TK is.

Weren't the jedi mere padawans, and wasn't Kun on a powerful nexus? If so, I'd say Ventress force choking both Anakin and Kenobi at the same time, in a fit of rage, is more impressive than Kun's feat. And Dooku easily overpowered Ventress in TK.

Usually it is. If you're a potent TK user, it's most likely that you can use TK to counteract a TK attack from someone who is on par or lesser than you.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh, he successfully uses it against Exar Kun. 😬

No he doesn't, otherwise Kun would have been depowered? 😬

Not saying Kun isn't strong enough to defend against Dooku's TK. I'm saying that shrugging off magic attacks doesn't mean he can shrug off TK attacks. They're different powers.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No he doesn't, otherwise Kun would have been depowered? 😬

Uh yes he successfully uses it against him. Just because it didn't work has nothing to do with its ability to be utilised in combat. Thats like arguing that you can't prove blasters can be used in combat because Jedi deflect them. AKA: Retarded. 😬

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Weren't the jedi mere padawans, and wasn't Kun on a powerful nexus? If so, I'd say Ventress force choking both Anakin and Kenobi at the same time, in a fit of rage, is more impressive than Kun's feat.

Pfft, bugger off. Obi-Wan and Anakin are powerful, but they're not more powerful than 12 padawans put together. 🙄

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh yes he successfully uses it against him. Just because it didn't work has nothing to do with its ability to be utilised in combat.

You're right. But it has everything to with its "successful" utilization, which is how I qualified the phrase to begin with. facepalm

Remember, we've already established my command of English surpasses yours.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You're right. But it has everything to with its "successful" utilization, which is how I qualified the phrase to begin with. facepalm

Remember, we've already established my command of English surpasses yours.

Apparantly not, since you fail to realise that your phrasing can be taken as easily in the way I'm interpreting it as how you are, ie: successfully used instead of successful in its use. Just as I could be successful in using a blaster in combat, which has nothing to do with whether I am successful in my use of the blaster in combat. I succeeded in using the blaster, but failed in the task I used it for. Understand?

Anyway, do you concede your asinine query over whether it can be used in battle or not?