Darth Vader Vs Mace windu

Originally posted by Stealth Moose

While Anakin does have rage moments, cyber-Vader is leagues better and demonstrates a better control over tapping his rage.

Oh yeah no doubt about that, but obviously pre-Injury Anakin/Vader would have a lot more raw power to draw up on in the moments he can tap that rage.

But how often has he demonstrated conscious control over it?

Rarely.

But he has consistently stalemated Dooku in TCW. So he is very powerful even going consistent showings.

TCW makes him more consistent, true. But I would hesitate to classify him as above Dooku entirely without his boost. It seemed it took Dooku toying with him and viciously taking out Obi-Wan to bring out his best.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
TCW makes him more consistent, true. But I would hesitate to classify him as above Dooku entirely without his boost. It seemed it took Dooku toying with him and viciously taking out Obi-Wan to bring out his best.

Yeah I'm not saying he's actually above Dooku on a consistent basis. More like his near equal, going by all TCW fights

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Zett, that seems reasonable except that Zonakin really just means tapping the Dark Side and that can give anybody a short burst. It gave Obi-Wan a burst to blitz Maul and sever his lightsaber, only it failed in the long run.

I agree with DP, that it was more, then short burst. It continues between Anakin's duel with Dooku, to his duel with Cin. He probably would be able to still use this burst during this fight with Kenobi, if not his ****ed mental state.

@Stealth Moose

Agree about your interpretation of CW's duels between Dooku and Anakin. However, in their last fight, it seems that Anakin was really angry. So his state in this fight might be similar to his state in movie's fight.

And my point of view about Anakin - Vader:

Without a doubt, Vader is much more skillfull in the force. Anakin on the other hand, has much more raw power. I'm not sure how, but it seems, that Anakins raw power in the force, enable him to tank force attacks much easier. I doubt, that his knowledge of the force is above Kenobi's, but he's much harder to beat by the force.

Since Vader wasn't able to take clear advantage over the strongest opponents (Starkiller, Dark Woman, Kenobi) by the force, I doubt, that it would be easy to find advantage over Anakin as well.

According to Gillard, Anakin was level 9 (when he was using his dark emotions). It may be bullshit, but on the other hand it may be helpfull.

DS/prime/Zone Anakin is level 9. Kenobi is level 8. It looks like Kenobi and Maul are pretty equal wit a lighstabers. So Maul is probably mid 8 or top 8.
Vader was - at best - equal to Maul, but at the end of the duel Maul had the advantage. So Vader is mid 8 at best. It's possbile that he's low 8 as well. I doubt, that he's level 7.

Yeah in a Sabers "only" battle I doubt Vader is above Gillard's level 8. But his Tk is above Dooku's by feats. So just because Anakin tanked Dooku's Tk attacks doesn't mean he'll be able to tank Vader's. Especially when he was just barely tanking Dooku's.

As for not using Tk against Old Ben, I'm calling PIS. Because he never even tried. Lucas didn't exactly have this all thought out when he made ANH.

Yeah, I also consider Vader's TK as somehow stronger and more skillfull (choking via skype etc).
But I also consider Dooku as much more talented/inteligent force user.
Vader somehow wasn't able to take advantage by his TK in a duels against strongest opoonents: Maul, Kenobi, Dark Woman.
Lucas stated, that Vader is about 80% of Sidious. I doubt, that Dooku is much less then that, since even Yoda was unable to overhelm him with TK (and Yoda's TK was comperable to Sidious'😉.

But, if we use some noncanon duels as what if?, then:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9scpu4LAhU -> 0:35 - 0:45
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7C7_5OWsdOU -> 0:53 - 0:58; 4:42 - 5:04;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQISSnQSU4k -> 3:40 - 3:45

Anakin's own TK was not bad. His raw power was like... 160 - 200% of Sidious (he lost half or more on Mustafar and he was about 80% of Sidious. x2 is 160% - I'm not sure how much he actually lost).
Anaki's protects combined with his raw power in the force made him almost untouchable for Dooku.

Well, I don't see Vader as a clear winner of fight against Anakin. In fact, I would give the majority to Anakin.

Originally posted by Zett

Lucas stated, that Vader is about 80% of Sidious. I doubt, that Dooku is much less then that,

Agree here. But 80% of Sidious is clearly powerful enough to destroy the likes of Maul, Kenobi and the Dark Woman (Dooku could also destroy them).

So the fact that Vader didn't use the Force to destroy them probably means he wanted to test his Saber Prowess on them. Prove he's better in every way. After all against Maul and Kenobi he wanted to prove his superiority, and against the Dark Woman he specifically told his stormtroopers to stay behind, meaning he wasn't looking for the quickest and most efficient kill, but was out to test and prove his skills (probably Saber skills).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Agree here. But 80% of Sidious is clearly powerful enough to destroy the likes of Maul, Kenobi and the Dark Woman (Dooku could also destroy them).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So the fact that Vader didn't use the Force to destroy them probably means he wanted to test his Saber Prowess on them.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I think what Lucas meant was that Vader's remaining midichlorians would allow him to reach 80% of Sidious' power, while originally, he would be 200% of Sidious' power.

Nah with the 80% he wasn't talking about how powerful Vader "could" become, but how powerful he "was" compared to how powerful he "would have been" by that point if not for his injuries.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Against Maul, he telekinetically used blasters to shoot at Maul because he was losing. Vader isn't more of a duelist than a Force practitioner like, say, Dooku; he's a bit of both. To say that he went into each of his fights with a duel in mind is not a pleasing explanation, in my opinion.

Well the truth is those fights were all PIS due to the lack of information authors and choreographers had at the time.

But the fact is Vader never actually hit any of the opponents with TK, which is quite a normal move now (especially for Vader). Getting stormtroopers to shoot guns is a diversionary tactic, and not a direct TK assault.

And Vader didn't do too bad against Maul. He did manage to slice his Saber in 2. And let's not forget, he did win the fight. He also did win against the Dark Woman and against Ben.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah with the 80% he wasn't talking about how powerful Vader "could" become, but how powerful he "was" compared to how powerful he "would have been" by that point if not for his injuries.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But the fact is Vader never actually hit any of the opponents with TK, which is quite a normal move now (especially for Vader).

Blaming Vader's lack of direct telekinetic assaults against his opponents on PIS and [unsupportedly] claiming he has different intentions in different fights isn't a good explanation.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Getting stormtroopers to shoot guns is a diversionary tactic, and not a direct TK assault.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And Vader didn't do too bad against Maul. He did manage to slice his Saber in 2.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah I'm not saying he's actually above Dooku on a consistent basis. More like his near equal, going by all TCW fights

👆

Cyber-Vader probably takes the Count out though.

Also, some of this "80% of Sidious, 200% of Sidious, 143% of Revan's left bicep" stuff seems very sketchy. Didn't GL pretty much make that up on the spot?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose

Also, some of this "80% of Sidious, 200% of Sidious, 143% of Revan's left bicep" stuff seems very sketchy. Didn't GL pretty much make that up on the spot?

LOL Probably. But it still says a lot that he came out with 80%, rather than say 50% Imo.

Also looking at Dooku's fight against Yoda, putting the Count and Vader at around the 80% mark doesn't seem far out. Perhaps 70-75 for the Count.

It's a trend I've just realized that masters seem to always know the flaws of their students best.

Sidious undoes Maul easily. Vader trained Starkiller II to have openings in his defense. Vodo is the only person we see beating Kun in a fight. Yoda undermines Dooku easily enough and the latter is inferior to his new master Sidious.

Then you have Obi-Wan who tanks a pissed off Anakin for like 12 minutes before finally capitalizing on his weakness.

^
Yoda wasn't inferior to Sidious. It's one of Stover's bullshits. Yoda and Sidious were more like equal in the force, and in a sabers Yoda was superior by slight margin.

And I agree, that masters have an advantage over their students.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I think what Lucas meant was that Vader's remaining midichlorians would allow him to reach 80% of Sidious' power, while originally, he would be 200% of Sidious' power.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah with the 80% he wasn't talking about how powerful Vader "could" become, but how powerful he "was" compared to how powerful he "would have been" by that point if not for his injuries.

Agree with Interpid37 here.

By latter I meant Dooku. Former would have implied Yoda.

oh, my mistake 🙂

No worries.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Except the novel is pretty well questionable. If I were to take anything it says seriously, that would have to pass a checklist:

1. It does not take place in a scene directly contradicted by the film version (in other words, it is either identical to the movie or it is deleted scenes style context).

2. It is corroborated by G- or C-canon elsewhere.

3. The feat is replicated on a consistent basis.

While Anakin does have rage moments, cyber-Vader is leagues better and demonstrates a better control over tapping his rage.

The point of contention was "is Zonakin a valid premise" and since the one and only source material is suspect, survey says no.

Also, according to ROTJ Vader did not pull the fight like a WWE fighter. I never said that either, I agreed Vader could have won if he'd been free to unleash all his TK upon Luke like he did in TFU - and he could have done that but he didn't just cause that's the plot, Anakin is Anakin, just like how Opress got a massive boost in powerlevel when fighting Dooku along with Ventress, that he clearly didn't have when fighting Sidious.

Anakin was fueled by Force with new ferocity against Dooku - but either Obi-wan or Anakin alone would have done better than together because they were "tripping over each other" in that fight; Anakin had the same power level when he fought Obi-wan because he still had the "new ferocity" - but he made one misstep that cost him the fight.

It's not about power level at all, it's like a real fight, the bigger guy doesn't always win, sometimes someone trips and breaks his own leg.

Unlike the TOR era where all that matters is power level, the Lucas canon is more realistic.

SMH