Darth Vader Vs Mace windu

Originally posted by Zett

Agree with Interpid37 here.

I don't see why.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I would have to read it again, but I'm fairly sure he was regarding Vader after he had just entered his suit, and honestly, if that is the case, it makes no sense.

He was talking about how accomplished he was by the OT Iirc. Hence without the injuries Vader would have been double Sidious by then.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Compare Vader's use of telekinesis to Dooku's. The former is more destructive with his surroundings, while Dooku is more potent connecting telekinetic attacks directly to his oponents.

Not really. He's owned many Jedi with a direct force hold on them. From Galen's dad, through Kota, Roan Shryne, and others which I have to look up.

Starkiller owned each of his opponents with the Force including Shaak Ti (high level council member), and Vader vs Starkiller's fight was described as both attempting to grab each other with the Force.

Then there's Vader's superior feats to Dooku. The Skype choke (obviously very well focused). And in the Eu there's Vader choking the Black Sun leader from Light Years away!

There's no real good reason to think Vader couldn't do the telekinetic assaults on the likes of Kenobi and Ventress that Dooku has displayed.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Blaming Vader's lack of direct telekinetic assaults against his opponents on PIS and [unsupportedly] claiming he has different intentions in different fights isn't a good explanation.

Well he never actually hit any of them with Tk, even though that is his most potent ability. So, whether intentional or not, he didn't display his full power against those opponents (and still won).

Originally posted by Oneness
The novelizations are g canon over films.

[list]"There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe—the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don't get too involved in the parallel universe."[/list]

--

[list]G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie)[/list]

No.

They explain exactly how Mace Windu pulled off a win against Sidious. He did not cut the handle of his blade in half in the novelization either, he batted Sidious' lightsaber out of his hand. If Dooku struggles with a team Sidious would easily slaughter, Windu shouldn't have stood a chance unless he was in a zone, which the novelization says he was.

See above. No.

Also, according to ROTJ Vader did not pull the fight like a WWE fighter. I never said that either, I agreed Vader could have won if he'd been free to unleash all his TK upon Luke like he did in TFU - and he could have done that but he didn't just cause that's the plot, Anakin is Anakin, just like how Opress got a massive boost in powerlevel when fighting Dooku along with Ventress, that he clearly didn't have when fighting Sidious.

Vader pretty much threw the fight. In fact, it was supposed to mirror the fight between Dooku and Anakin in RotS; the Emperor watches while his apprentices goads and toys with the person he is really interested in having at his side. In the original script released by LFL, Dooku was at first following Sidious' wishes and attempting to draw out Anakin's anger only to surrender later, but he was duped. The difference is that Anakin killed Dooku while Luke spared Vader. Luke succeeded because he had restraint when his father had none. GL chose to omit the references to this, either making Anakin's power more evident and win more legitimate, or simply because someone forgot to include pepper with his cheesefries, we don't know.

Anakin was fueled by Force with new ferocity against Dooku - but either Obi-wan or Anakin alone would have done better than together because they were "tripping over each other" in that fight;

This I agree with. In power duels, the duo suffers because of lack of cohesion, and Ani/Obi are the most cohesive unit we've ever seen in the mythos.

Anakin had the same power level when he fought Obi-wan because he still had the "new ferocity" - but he made one misstep that cost him the fight.

Obi-Wan was on his heels most of the fight, but at no point did Anakin win the duel by superior technique or Force power. If anything, Obi-Wan was very close to Anakin's level and the environment broke the stalemate.

It's not about power level at all, it's like a real fight, the bigger guy doesn't always win, sometimes someone trips and breaks his own leg.

Unlike the TOR era where all that matters is power level, the Lucas canon is more realistic.

SMH

This is some kind of joke, since GL also greenlit that embarassing Samurai Jack style cartoon where padawans ragdoll starships.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
[list]"There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "[b]There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe—the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don't get too involved in the parallel universe."[/list]

--

[list]G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie)[/list][/b]

We've been through this, all of this only addresses what happens between, before, and after the films.

In the case of the novelizations, they are the films, Lucas is speaking through his author.

See above. No.

Not only do the novels explain things better, but Lucas is speaking through the authors. Lucas did not direct anything after ANH, he hired directors and worked with them as he did with the authors. He was, in a sense, co-director and co-author of everything pertaining to the 8 films and the TCW TV show.

Vader pretty much threw the fight. In fact, it was supposed to mirror the fight between Dooku and Anakin in RotS; the Emperor watches while his apprentices goads and toys with the person he is really interested in having at his side. In the original script released by LFL, Dooku was at first following Sidious' wishes and attempting to draw out Anakin's anger only to surrender later, but he was duped. The difference is that Anakin killed Dooku while Luke spared Vader. Luke succeeded because he had restraint when his father had none. GL chose to omit the references to this, either making Anakin's power more evident and win more legitimate, or simply because someone forgot to include pepper with his cheesefries, we don't know.

No, in both cases Sidious was trying to see who was more powerful, if Anakin or Luke won, it means they were more suitable apprentices, as is the Rule of Two.

This I agree with. In power duels, the duo suffers because of lack of cohesion, and Ani/Obi are the most cohesive unit we've ever seen in the mythos.

Exactly.

b[]Obi-Wan was on his heels most of the fight, but at no point did Anakin win the duel by superior technique or Force power. If anything, Obi-Wan was very close to Anakin's level and the environment broke the stalemate. [/b]

Anakin got more hits, broke Obi's defenses, if they'd been on the Invisible Hand Obi-wan would have been toast.

As far as the Force push - Anakin was not fully committed to the Dark Side, Obi-wan was fully committed to the light. The force was evened out between the two, despite Ani's superior power level to Dooku (80% of Emperor) because the Force wasn't amping him like it was Obi-wan. Plagueis explains this, it's demonstrated in POD, it's demonstrated in the battle between Sidious and Yoda - and by the fact that the Unifying Force betrayed Sidious in that he saw Luke killing him, not Vader.

This is some kind of joke, since GL also greenlit that embarassing Samurai Jack style cartoon where padawans ragdoll starships.

Lucas green lit it and then made it obsolete by adding the 8th installment to the film series and working closely with the creators of the true Clone Wars tv show.

Originally posted by Oneness
We've been through this, all of this only addresses what happens between, before, and after the films.[

No it doesn't. It explicitly says anything not deriving from GL in the novelizations is C-canon and also goes on to say that GL keeps the series consistent by maintaining the films' quality and content, not by using novelizations to supplement what he's already done, or in this case what he's releasing the following month.

In the case of the novelizations, they are the films, Lucas is speaking through his author.

No. See above. You have absolutely zero evidence to even hint at this and I've provided accessible quotes and canon description to boot.

You explicitly said novels > films. I can't point out how ridiculous this is here.

Not only do the novels explain things better, but Lucas is speaking through the authors. Lucas did not direct anything after ANH, he hired directors and worked with them as he did with the authors. He was, in a sense, co-director and co-author of everything pertaining to the 8 films and the TCW TV show.

GL personally viewed and okayed everything that went on film. He is recognized by all of LFL as the definitive authority figure on G-canon, since it is "his world". If he says "I don't want stuntmen to fight in place of Sammy and Ian", it happens. No director overrides him, nor any author better interpret his own words. This is folly.

No, in both cases Sidious was trying to see who was more powerful, if Anakin or Luke won, it means they were more suitable apprentices, as is the Rule of Two.

Actually, in both cases the underdog won, but the underdog had more potential or was a better candidate for Sidious' ambitions. But that's besides the point. You could show RotJ to small children and they'd realize Vader was throwing the fight, especially since Luke was swinging like Ray Charles at the batter's plate and in ESB Vader rearranged Luke's face a couple of times.

Anakin got more hits, broke Obi's defenses, if they'd been on the Invisible Hand Obi-wan would have been toast.

But even in the small confined room such as the control room on Mustafar, Anakin did not utterly win the fight at any one point, and even stalemated Obi-Wan's Force push here. Whether it was determination on Obi's part or just the benefit which comes with training Anakin for the last 13 years, he held his own. He got banged up, but Anakin wasn't stomping him and bending him over the table either.

If Anakin was to Obi-Wan, as he was to Dooku, the fight would have been over in a minute with Anakin as the victor, and only plot-induced defeat could intervene, it being a prequel.

As far as the Force push - Anakin was not fully committed to the Dark Side, Obi-wan was fully committed to the light.

Proof of this? Anakin had glowing yellow Sith eyes and had butchered hundreds, including children.

The force was evened out between the two, despite Ani's superior power level to Dooku (80% of Emperor) because the Force wasn't amping him like it was Obi-wan.

How can you rank Dooku conclusively like this? This all seems very "off of the top of my head, IMO, etc." here.

Plagueis explains this, it's demonstrated in POD, it's demonstrated in the battle between Sidious and Yoda - and by the fact that the Unifying Force betrayed Sidious in that he saw Luke killing him, not Vader.

What does this even clarify?

Lucas green lit it and then made it obsolete by adding the 8th installment to the film series and working closely with the creators of the true Clone Wars tv show.

Right. But your point is that GL's era or overview has this more rational consistency, and it doesn't. I already pointed out that even the OT to the PT is inconsistent for a number of reasons, this cartoon was another, and even the current CW series is different with characters being far more powerful and skilled than their movie counterparts.

There is no overarcing consistency and your assertion that the movies are moreso is just a cover for your real butthurt of the fact that EU-only characters are a real threat to their status.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose

[b]When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. [/B]

This part of the rules is what I keep trying to explain to Oneness. That Lucas's more recent(post Prequel) quotes are more important than stuff he said Pre-Prequel era, and it most cases just outright overwrite them. And definitely more important than the ROTJ Novel not even written by him 20 years ago.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Vader pretty much threw the fight. In fact, it was supposed to mirror the fight between Dooku and Anakin in RotS; the Emperor watches while his apprentices goads and toys with the person he is really interested in having at his side. In the original script released by LFL, Dooku was at first following Sidious' wishes and attempting to draw out Anakin's anger only to surrender later, but he was duped. The difference is that Anakin killed Dooku while Luke spared Vader. Luke succeeded because he had restraint when his father had none. GL chose to omit the references to this, either making Anakin's power more evident and win more legitimate, or simply because someone forgot to include pepper with his cheesefries, we don't know.

GL actually makes a parallel between the ROTJ Luke vs Vader scene and the ROTS Anakin vs Dooku one in the ROTJ audio commentary. Nothing about toying or throwing the fight specifically, but about how they were both being tested and tempted in a similar fashion. And I'm pretty sure he calls this one of those "recurring themes in the saga."

I'm going to sum up my side of the argument by responding to this for now, I'll address your other arguments at a later time.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
What does this even clarify?

It clarifies that:

[list]

>Vader, whose 80% of the Emperor, has better precog because the Force is amping it. The Emperor claims that he did not foresee that Luke was on Endor, and that it's strange that Vader did: whilst Luke, a Padawan with no where near his father's power, manages to defeat him.

>As of RoTS, the Emperor, who shouldn't really be above the Uber Jedi Yoda, overwhelms the master in a Force battle: whilst Obi-wan, who should be less than Dooku, who is less than Anakin at this poinit, should not be able to draw him in a Force battle. Yet in both cases, the former does: whilst Mace Windu manages to defeat Sidious, who is way out of his league in terms of Force power and lightsaber combat due to previous showings.

>As of Darth Plagueis, Sidious is born corrupted by the dark side: whilst the Force commands Shmi to create Anakin so that his implied potential gets him marked by Qui Gon as the Chosen One of prophecy: whilst Maul defeats Qui Gon, despite that fact that the latter is a seasoned Jedi Master whose reached his full potential on par with the likes of Dooku and Windu (as there duels indicate), and far more powerful than Maul who has not reached his full potential.[/list]

The Force itself, which is the benevolent collective of all life in the galaxy, amps Force users in special situations - and we should disregard feats in these situations.

Vader is stronger than Mace Windu, because has better consistent showings and is understood as closer to the Emperor in power level.

Originally posted by Oneness
I'm going to sum up my side of the argument by responding to this for now, I'll address your other arguments at a later time.

It clarifies that:

>Vader, whose 80% of the Emperor,

Is this a raw number or an average of his all-over-the-place ability?

has better precog because the Force is amping it. The Emperor claims that he did not foresee that Luke was on Endor, and that it's strange that Vader did: whilst Luke, a Padawan with no where near his father's power, manages to defeat him.

Yet Vader didn't sense the Millenium Falcon swooping behind him in ANH and shooting his TIE, nor did he sense that Leia was both Force sensitive and his daughter. About the only time he's shown to be especially sensitive is strictly with Luke. This proves nothing in a combat scenario.

>As of RoTS, the Emperor, who shouldn't really be above the Uber Jedi Yoda, overwhelms the master in a Force battle: whilst Obi-wan, who should be less than Dooku, who is less than Anakin at this poinit, should not be able to draw him in a Force battle. Yet in both cases, the former does:

In both cases, the slightly inferior opponent won through environment +10 to win, true. But Obi-Wan met what little Force usage Anakin provided head on and came out equal; the same is not true for Yoda and Sidious.

whilst Mace Windu manages to defeat Sidious, who is way out of his league in terms of Force power and lightsaber combat due to previous showings.

Not really. Mace Windu has been 2IC of the Jedi since again before Anakin was able to fly a pod racer. He created his own form, specifically learned how to sublimate the darkness within him and use it constructively to confront other users of the Force, defeated someone with the raw power of perhaps Yoda in a tactical disadvantage, and his TK is comparable; he once TK'd an entire landslide while levitating a double-decker bus sized land-tank.

Aside from Yoda, Mace is the best candidate to kill the Emperor and might have succeeded had Anakin not shown up or thrown him under the bus.

>As of Darth Plagueis, Sidious is born corrupted by the dark side: whilst the Force commands Shmi to create Anakin so that his implied potential gets him marked by Qui Gon as the Chosen One of prophecy:

Wait, Shmi was commanded to birth a son of the Force? When is this verified?

whilst Maul defeats Qui Gon, despite that fact that the latter is a seasoned Jedi Master whose reached his full potential on par with the likes of Dooku and Windu (as there duels indicate), and far more powerful than Maul who has not reached his full potential

Honestly, Qui-Gon has never been comparable. The quote which suggests as much comes from either the TPM novelization, which predates Mace so much as using his saber in film or EU as well as Dooku, or a TPM reference book from 1999. Neither is really respectable nor provable.

The Force itself, which is the benevolent collective of all life in the galaxy, amps Force users in special situations - and we should disregard feats in these situations.

But how do you clarify which is a special situation?

Vader is stronger than Mace Windu, because has better consistent showings and is understood as closer to the Emperor in power level.

Yes, but Mace Windu wasn't a child next to him and Yoda would likely struggle with Mace before eventually winning. The trick is, Yoda doesn't have the latent darkness which Sidious had, which Windu capitalized on. So in essence, he is built to kill Sith.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't see why.

Well, I - just like Interpid37 - believe, that Lucas was refering to his midichlorians potential:

However, after all of his limbs were severed and he was extremely burned on Mustafar he lost much of his Force potential. As Darth Vader, Skywalker was believed to have had roughly 80% of the strength of the Emperor. Had he sustained none of his injuries on Mustafar he would have been twice as powerful.

It's cleat for me, that the whole sentence is about Anakin's strenght in the force, his potential.
But if we assume, that Vader reach maximum of his potencial (or what's remains of it), and after that he was 80% of peak Sidious, conclusion will be the same: Vader was about 80% of Sidious, and he couldn't dream, to defeat him in a fair fight (as Lucas also stated, as I remember).

So:
- Vader's midichlorians counts = 80% of Sidious'
- peak suited Vader = 80% of peak Sidious,
which actually means the same.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Then there's Vader's superior feats to Dooku. The Skype choke (obviously very well focused). And in the Eu there's Vader choking the Black Sun leader from Light Years away!

There's no real good reason to think Vader couldn't do the telekinetic assaults on the likes of Kenobi and Ventress that Dooku has displayed.

Skype choke may be a prove, for his superior TK's technique. But is he much stronger? I doubt.
Much stronger then Dooku were, for example, Yoda and Sidious. Sidious could TK Maul and Opress at the same time. Vader wasn't even able to TK Maul alone (I doubt that he wanted to test his lighstaber skills against Maul - after all at the end of this duel, Maul had the upper hand).

So, for me, Vader's TK is closer to Dooku's, then to Sidoious'.

So most of Anakin's midi-chlorians were in his arms and legs?

Probably in his balls, which is why he lost so many when he got burned.

Makes sense. Anakin is explicitly over Yoda's midi-chlorian levels as of TPM, but by the end of RotS, he's 80% of Yoda's equal. Clearly, midi-chlorians are like auxillary lymph nodes or something.

Also, it explains how Luke had almost equal potential, since Anakin would have attached the midichlorians to his semen when he ****ed Padme.

Originally posted by Zett

However, after all of his limbs were severed and he was extremely burned on Mustafar he lost much of his Force potential. As Darth Vader, Skywalker was believed to have had roughly 80% of the strength of the Emperor. Had he sustained none of his injuries on Mustafar he would have been twice as powerful.

It's cleat for me, that the whole sentence is about Anakin's strenght in the force, his potential.

Sounds to me like he's talking about actualized power.

Originally posted by Zett
Skype choke may be a prove, for his superior TK's technique. But is he much stronger? I doubt.
Much stronger then Dooku were, for example, Yoda and Sidious. Sidious could TK Maul and Opress at the same time. Vader wasn't even able to TK Maul alone (I doubt that he wanted to test his lighstaber skills against Maul - after all at the end of this duel, Maul had the upper hand).

Well he never actually TK attacked Maul so we just don't know. But going by feats if he did TK Maul he would have slaughtered him.

Originally posted by Zett
So, for me, Vader's TK is closer to Dooku's, then to Sidoious'.

For me his TK is closer to Sidious's, but his overall power is closer to Dooku's.

Dooku has the advantages of Force Lightining, Mobility and Speed to help compensate for Vader's advantages of greater TK and Physical strength.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So most of Anakin's midi-chlorians were in his arms and legs?

I guess not. Anyway, after Mustafar his whole body looked like a small piece of shit. My other theory, is that he sacrificed some of his midichlorians to keep himself alive. But it's just my stupid theory, nothing more. The fact is, that he lost about half or more of his potential.

@Darth Power

Maybe so. But I doubt, that he could destroyed Maul with TK and didn't do that.
I can assume, that he could use his TK on Kenobi, Ventress, Bulq or Dark Woman. But not on Maul, sice Maul was so close to kill him.

Originally posted by Zett

Maybe so. But I doubt, that he could destroyed Maul with TK and didn't do that.
I can assume, that he could use his TK on Kenobi, Ventress, Bulq or Dark Woman. But not on Maul, sice Maul was so close to kill him.

Well truth is they didn't really have the "superior TK" thing worked out at the time of that comic - pre-AOTC when Dooku differetiates to Yoda how TK and Saber Prowess are 2 different skill sets.

But fact is Vader is superior to Maul in TK, yet never used it against him. Why not? Fact is Saber Prowess is not Vader's strong suit. His TK is. So if he doesn't utilize TK he's simply not unleashing his full power.

^
Yeah, without a doubt Vader is far superior to Maul in TK. But well, there are few ways of using it. One of them is to break your enemy's force gurad (or maybe his force protects, or smth like that?) and catch, choke him etc. Another way is to throw some objects at your enemy.

The firts way is probably harder and more effective. But now, we have a question: was Vader able, to break Maul's guard?
I'm not so sure at this moment. Before TCW I would say "yes". But now? Well, Mauls showed himself as very skilled TK user. In DM😖hadow Hunter he also showed nice protects (against physcical damage , but stil). Maybe his force guard was also very strong?
Sidious was able to easily deal with him, but Maul was his student. Sidious could have bigger advatage over Maul because of that.

On the other hand, as Interpid37 pointed, Vader used his TK against Maul, when he took blasters and tried to shot him.

Originally posted by Zett

On the other hand, as Interpid37 pointed, Vader used his TK against Maul, when he took blasters and tried to shot him.

Well yeah sort of, but that's a very indirect use of TK. If he used the force to throw those guns and stormtroopers at Maul, it would be a whole different story. But using TK to make their guns fire?

That's kind of like saying Vader used TK on Luke when he used TK to turn on the Carbon Freeze. Point is neither of those examples really has any bearing on what would happen in a pure TK battle between the opponents.

Originally posted by Zett
I guess not. Anyway, after Mustafar his whole body looked like a small piece of shit. My other theory, is that he sacrificed some of his midichlorians to keep himself alive. But it's just my stupid theory, nothing more. The fact is, that he lost about half or more of his potential.

Midi-chlorians are symbiotic microorganisms that aid in Force sensitivity and use. If Anakin went from about 200% Sids to 80%, that means more than half of his midi-chlorians are in his limbs or epidermis. But given GL's Anakin scar hypothesis, I wouldn't think too much on the math. He did pull it out of his ass during an interview.

Also, Simus is now the weakest Force user in the mythos.

You mean the head? Or prior to his beheadal [invented word]?

And yeah, Anakin got screwed. Good thing he did, because had he reached his potential, defeated Sidious and became the Emperor, the Empire wouldn't have lasted shit with him as the ultimate ruler. He's not even half as smart and cunning as Sidious.