Darth Vader Vs Mace windu

Originally posted by Oneness

No, Anakin is exactly 80% of Palpatine as of RoTS - and (purportedly) still getting stronger.

So then he is exactly equal to OT Vader.

Originally posted by Oneness
The novels are more credible than the website,

Not really, given the novels are usually written from a character POV, whilst sources are written by someone at Lucasfilm. I.e. an out of universe source.

Originally posted by Oneness
Darth Plagueis flat out states that cyberdization does not inhibit ones ability in the Force.,

That only helps Vader's case.

Originally posted by Oneness
That was after your little barely canon article was written.

Barely canon? Lol which one? The official site or Lucas's comments?

Originally posted by Oneness
Vader mastered his suit as well as he could, and his lightsaber style, but was far more limited than Anakin, and no longer had the drive that he once did. That drive allowed him a temporary boost, in which he beat Count Dooku.

Just like Luke got a temporary light side boost when beating DE Uber Sith Palpatine.

If you think that by RoTJ Vader's between Maul and Count Dooku, I'll give you that, but far closer to Maul than the latter.

According to Lucas Vader after his injuries was as powerful as Darth Maul or Count Dooku. Clearly there's a big gap there, but then there's a big gap between Vader right after his injuries, and Vader 20 years later.

So I'd say by the OT he's around Dooku level. (I'd personally give him the edge over Dooku in an all out).

Originally posted by Oneness
Absence of evidence = evidence of absence? Lucas never said he was talking about Luke's ability to stop Vader being impossible he did beat Vader in straight combat, he said he was ill equipped to handle the metaphorical monster of the dark side in the Emperor, Vader, and himself - he used words from the novelization that he helped write for that purpose. Lucas never said Vader was holding back either.

He said he wasn't fully equipped to handle Vader due to his lack of training. That clearly means he didn't have the skill set to be on par with Vader yet.

What actually happened in the fight is irrelevant as Lucas has flat out told us that Luke isn't yet a match for Vader at this point.

auto-double post

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So then he is exactly equal to OT Vader.

This isn't dragon ball Z, the cybernetics physically hinder Vader.

Not really, given the novels are usually written from a character POV, whilst sources are written by someone at Lucasfilm. I.e. an out of universe source.

What character was the narrator!? C-3PO!? Prove it was a character at all as opposed to the narrator/author who worked directly with George Lucas.

Novelizations are still G-Canon, have it requested to no longer be G-Canon over at Disney and if they accept it and Wookiepeedia says it's c-canon, there ya go.

That only helps Vader's case.

What, being closer to Maul than Dooku??

Alright, it is stated by George Lucas that Vader stopped growing stronger after sustaining his injuries. True, but according to the Darth Plagueis novel as well as Sidious himself in the Rise of Darth Vader novel, this is just a coincidence, as cyberdization does not decrease Force potential ("ability"😉 and Vader 'could have reached his full potential' if he could have snapped out of his disparity.

According to Lucas Vader after his injuries was as powerful as Darth Maul or Count Dooku.

Yet Count Dooku and Darth Maul were not equals. That quote is not specific enough to put Darth Vader near Darth Tyranus' level without the need to argue your case examples from the novelizations and the films because that's how you want it to be.

there's a big gap between Vader right after his injuries, and Vader 20 years later.

How so?

You mean in skill and mastery of his revised lightsaber style - maybe there's some refinement here and there but not enough to put him where he was in ROTS - especially not when he gets winded, Luke wore him down, so did Galen Marek in TFU. I'd put RoTJ Luke </= TFU Galen Marek << ROTS Anakin who had more than Starkiller's 10 years of training at about 14 years of training and hardcore combat, power doubling in the 4 years - Luke has had 4 years to almost catch up to the less Force sensitive Galen Marek - which is a stretch but possible considering he was a quicker learner than his father (Star Wars #8; Star Wars Insider 62: Fightsaber), and the same capabilities as Luke in Force sensitivity.

So I'd say by the OT he's around Dooku level.

/fanfic

(I'd personally give him the edge over Dooku in an all out).

/straight wrong fanfic.

He said he wasn't fully equipped to handle Vader

Or the metaphorical monster of the dark side, we don't know and that is not proof that Vader was holding back or that Luke couldn't best Vader in a lightsaber duel. You can't just take everything out of context and contradict the novelization because it suits your needs. I could have done that when you used the RoTS novelization as the word of George Lucas, which it kind of is (G Canon).

due to his lack of training. That clearly means he didn't have the skill set to be on par with Vader yet.

That totally does not clearly mean that.

What actually happened in the fight is irrelevant as Lucas has flat out told us that Luke isn't yet a match for Vader at this point.

If you take what he said out of context to try and claim g canon is c canon.

Regarding cyberdization and Force sensitivity, cyberdization should not inhibit Vader's Force potential (Rise of Darth Vader).

It does, however, prevent Vader from using Force lightning through his circuitry. Which can be overcome with the technique of Kinetite (Splinter of the Mind's Eye and Rise and Fall of Darth Vader) when Vader is at a thousandfold his normal power level.

Sidious still hid a lot of information from Vader and the only real training he had was toward lightsaber combat and in his training with sparring-droids (RoDV). He'd learned some incredible telekinetic techniques that were very combat oriented and could supplement his lightsaber - skills he imparted to Starkiller, but no more than Darth Tyranus would have known.

Vader's real limitation lie in his helmet, over-cumbersome armor, poor vision due to his helmet and eye things, the poor range of motion in his prosthetic limbs, his burned lungs and the fact that he had guard his respirator that was a massive target on his chest, etc.

As far as skill goes, Vader had to really refine his form, he had to be very careful and he still was a broken shadow of his former self.

Luke had fought Vader before, he had the ability of shatter-point (FoTJ) and form-mimicry (Insider 62: Fightsaber), he was able to perform TK (ESB) and a Jedi mind trick (Star Wars #8) just from watching Obi-wan do them - intuitively developed the ability to deflect blaster bolts with his lightsaber (ESB) and Force choke (RoTJ). He'd had half the training that a Padawan needed in order to face the trials to become a Knight (ROTJ commentary; we see such a Knighting in CW) - and had trained on his own for years after facing Vader, and had been taught enough from Yoda to construct his own lightsaber. Vader notes that his skills were complete (RoTJ). Furthermore, he was intuitively able to use Force choke by RoTJ, something Obi-wan probably never knew about until Tyranus managed to grab him by surprise in RoTS, he was also able to intuitively deflect the Emperor's Force lightning for a fraction of a second (RoTJ novelization) so it's difficult for me to imagine Force choke working on him in RoTJ like it did on Obi-wan in RoTS.

Also note that Luke started increasing his power level after the events of ANH at a much much later age than Starkiller and Anakin (19) - so it is safe to assume that over the next 4 years his power level increased substantially faster than Starkiller's, and slightly faster than the younger Anakin who had the same Force potential (George Lucas). After 4 years, it's safe to assume he had become about as powerful as AoTC Anakin at 40% of the Emperor, nearly as powerful as Starkiller as of TFU (as only a year or two later Luke Skywalker levitates his star fighter and himself safely from orbit in The Courtship of Princess Leia), and would be almost as skilled as AoTC Anakin in lightsaber combat. Though Luke didn't have the knack for tactical acumen that his father possesed (TCW), nor the knack for stringing together Force powers with lightsaber technique of Starkiller (TFU).

Even though his training incomplete, the RoTJ novel says Vader was out classed, even before Luke had a boost of Force rage when Vader brought up Leia. Vader's over-sized helmet and poor balance due to a combination of the weight of his armor and the nature of his prosthetic feet (RoDV) are even shown to get in the way in the RoTJ novelization ('he tripped backward' and 'hit his head' on an over hanging) and then the novelization claims he ran out of stamina similar to how the TFU novel does.

Vader doesn't have ability to compete with Windu - even if they're equals in power level, Windu has crazy combat specific Force abilities - as much so as Revan and Luke Skywalker - enough to make him ever bit as lethal as Tyranus, who'd I'd say is stronger in the Force and has better dueling skills than Windu or Kas'im from the Darth Bane: POD.

Now use the non-canon Vader seen in Dark Horse' Infinities: RoTJ (my avi) and the point can be made that he has the will to realize his full potential - at 200% of Sidious in power level he has the tools to put him near Zonakin despite the limitations of his cybernetics, just barely.

Oneness, what are you smoking? The novelization is released a month before and movie canon is more valid per SW canon rules which I even directly quoted. If two versions of events are depicted and one is the movie that version is deemed superior by LFL. GL's approval over the book doesn't make it more canon then his work or Ragnos' tomb is G-canon. The alternative version of events originates with Stover and blatantly contradicts the movie. If this were a canon court it'd be inadmissable.

So it's official; the Church of Artoo does not recognize this heresy. And lol at you calling Splinter of the Mind's eye canon. Have you read that book? The author wasn't aware of the Luke-Leia sibling connection because it predates RotJ so Luke is trying to bed his sister in it.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Oneness, what are you smoking?

An Electronic-cig, actually.

The novelization is released a month before

Further indication of Lucas' involvement in it.

and movie canon is more valid per SW canon rules, which I even directly quoted.

They should be equally canon, g canon.

If two versions of events are depicted and one is the movie that version is deemed superior by LFL.

No, minor differences in events, that are made to better explain the same story, shouldn't invalidate a feat performed in movie and the novel - just help explain exactly what happened.

GL's approval over the book doesn't make it more canon then his work or Ragnos' tomb is G-canon.

The JA Game is not legally recognized as such, the novelizations are.

The alternative version of events originates with Stover and blatantly contradicts the movie.

Not really.

If this were a canon court it'd be inadmissable.

There is a canon, and difference in events are admitted because the novels tell the truer story in that the story of a book can be more expansive and complete than can a movie.

So it's official; the Church of Artoo

You mean you.

does not recognize this heresy.

You mean the implications of using the novelizations upsets you.

And lol at you calling Splinter of the Mind's eye canon. Have you read that book? The author wasn't aware of the Luke-Leia sibling connection because it predates RotJ so Luke is trying to bed his sister in it.

He didn't know she is was his sister though. 😉

Originally posted by Oneness
This isn't dragon ball Z, the cybernetics physically hinder Vader.

Lucas didn't say Vader would be 80% as Powerful as Palpatine if not for his Cybernetics.

He said that as of the OT Vader WAS 80% as powerful as Palpatine. So stop being obsessed about his cybernetics. The physical strength they give him can and do actually benefit him in a fight.

Originally posted by Oneness
What character was the narrator!? C-3PO!? Prove it was a character at all as opposed to the narrator/author who worked directly with George Lucas.

Which quote are you talking about, and I'll tell you. Novels are almost always written in 3rd person narrative. I.e. from a character's POV.

Just read TFUII. It's a good novel to get the concept of 3rd person narrative, as every chapter alternates between Starkiller's and Juno's POV.

In fact at one point(the Boba Fett fight) we are described the same events in a completely different way, because both of their perceptions are different.

Originally posted by Oneness
Novelizations are still G-Canon, have it requested to no longer be G-Canon over at Disney and if they accept it and Wookiepeedia says it's c-canon, there ya go.

Novels are all C-Canon. Lower than Lucas's own statements, the movies and animated series.

There's an argument for the movie based novels to be higher due to Lucas's involvement, but they're still not G-Canon.

Originally posted by Oneness
What, being closer to Maul than Dooku??

That's your own fanfic. Lucas never said he's closer to Maul than Dooku. He's 80% of the Emperor so clearly closer to Dooku level than Maul anyday.

That quote seems to be referring to potential. Potential wise Maul, Vader and Dooku may have all been in the same league.

But Maul was the weakest because he didn't get to realize a good portion of his potential.

Originally posted by Oneness
Alright, it is stated by George Lucas that Vader stopped growing stronger after sustaining his injuries. True, but according to the Darth Plagueis novel as well as Sidious himself in the Rise of Darth Vader novel, this is just a coincidence, as cyberdization does not decrease Force potential ("ability"😉 and Vader 'could have reached his full potential' if he could have snapped out of his disparity.

What are you talking about? Lucas never said Vader "stopped growing more powerful after his injuries."

He said he lost power and potential due to his injuries. That doesn't
mean he can't make the most of the Power he has, and increase his mastery over the years in using it.

It also doesn't mean he's already reached his full potential.

Originally posted by Oneness
You mean in skill and mastery of his revised lightsaber style - maybe there's some refinement here and there but not enough to put him where he was in ROTS - especially not when he gets winded, Luke wore him down, so did Galen Marek in TFU.

How about 20 years of Mastery of the Dark Side, making his TK amongst the best in the Saga? With that level of TK, and his already impressive Saber Prowess, he could easily be an equal to ROTS Skywalker.

Originally posted by Oneness
I'd put RoTJ Luke </= TFU Galen Marek << ROTS Anakin who had more than Starkiller's 10 years of training at about 14 years of training and hardcore combat, power doubling in the 4 years - Luke has had 4 years to almost catch up to the less Force sensitive Galen Marek - which is a stretch but possible considering he was a quicker learner than his father (Star Wars #8; Star Wars Insider 62: Fightsaber), and the same capabilities as Luke in Force sensitivity.

[QUOTE=14542042]Originally posted by Oneness
[B] /fanfic

Originally posted by Oneness
/fanfic

Given the trouble Dooku had dealing with Savage Opress's physical strength and his rage enhanced raw Tk, I have a feeling Vader could take Dooku, if just barely.

Originally posted by Oneness
Or the metaphorical monster of the dark side, we don't know and that is not proof that Vader was holding back or that Luke couldn't best Vader in a lightsaber duel. You can't just take everything out of context and contradict the novelization because it suits your needs. I could have done that when you used the RoTS novelization as the word of George Lucas, which it kind of is (G Canon).

Stop stretching. He said Luke wasn't ready for Vader because he was only half trained. I.e. He didn't have the skill set yet.

Originally posted by Oneness
If you take what he said out of context to try and claim g canon is c canon.

ILucas's quote where he states Luke just isn't skilled enough for Vader is G-Canon. The novels your sticking to are not only C-Canon but outdated too since the Prequels.

lol, "both are G-canon, if the novelization contradicts, despite what LFL says about development precedent, I will accept it as equally or more valid than a later on screen depiction of the same events directed by the guy who made the series".

Go go, Gadget Bias.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
lol, "both are G-canon, if the novelization contradicts, despite what LFL says about development precedent, I will accept it as equally or more valid than a later on screen depiction of the same events directed by the guy who made the series".

This is what George Lucas said, having already read the novelization in which he's purportedly 'contradicting':

"Luke Skywalker is not equipped to handle this monster."

But he is not contradicting the novel - being ill-equipped to face down Vader again doesn't mean he can't defeat Vader in battle, it demonstrably meant that he can't conquer Vader without a) turning to the dark side, or b) being destroyed by the Emperor.

The latter was proven, it was Vader that allowed Luke the victory over the dark side that was this metaphorical 'monster' residing in all three of them...

No because he tells us the reason why he's not yet equipped to handle him is because he never completed his training. There's nothing metaphorical about it.

And novels are C-Canon. Old novels and materials in general have been revamped many times.

As I showed you from the official site, Vader is a very powerful Sith. Injuries or not.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No because he tells us the reason why he's not yet equipped to handle him is because he never completed his training. There's nothing metaphorical about it.

No, he says that he has received only half of the training and direction Yoda had originally intended to impart. Then separately asserts that Luke is ill-equipped - note that he also says that Luke's training (which involves mental disciplining the padawan as well) that Luke is dealing with the fact that he is going to be the last Jedi. Lastly, you need to realize the entire context of why Lucas felt he needed to impart any of this information, in that Yoda has said that the revelation of Vader as the father was unfortunate for Luke because he wasn't ready to handle that truth, the "burden" of truth.

Not that he is ill-equipped to handle Vader because of the fact. You're drawing a semi-justified conclusion - like the one I drew of him referring to the novelization and what the 'monster' actually is.

Your notion of whether Lucas was referring to his ability to win a battle is equally as justified as my notion that he's referring to the metaphor of the temptation of evil/the dark side.

And novels are C-Canon. Old novels and materials in general have been revamped many times.

Novels aren't the same as Novelizations, Lucas had direct hand in the Novelizations, and unless he goes in there and says its wrong, it should hold precedence over the films due to very reason for a novelization, to depict a truer story. Again, the novelizations are legally g canon.

As I showed you from the official site, Vader is a very powerful Sith. Injuries or not.

Windu is a powerful Jedi, second only to Yoda (making of AoTC).

More to the point, Windu is a far more capable combatant.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He'd probably stalemate Kenobi.

Originally posted by Zett
Lucas stated, that Anakin and Obi-wan are superior duelits to Vader and "Ben".
Anyway, Vader is above ROTS Kenobi because of his force powers. But in pure saber duel, I give it to Kenobi.

I'd say these two statements are fairly accurate, actually.

More than not, Vader would probably lose to his master.

Novelizations can not be G-Canon because they're not written by Lucas. Him approving or having some input into them is not the same thing as coming directly from him.

Even if the ROTJ novel did come directly from Lucas(it did not), it was so long ago he's completely revamped everything since then. His direct statements right after or during the Prequels are much much better/bigger evidence than whats written in a Pre-Prequel Novelization.

Originally posted by Oneness
No, he says that he has received only half of the training and direction Yoda had originally intended to impart. Then separately asserts that Luke is ill-equipped - note that he also says that Luke's training (which involves mental disciplining the padawan as well) that Luke is dealing with the fact that he is going to be the last Jedi.

It was the same line. He was explaining his point. You can't just put your own spin on his statement to make it coherent with a 20 year old Novel that wasn't even written by him.

@Stealth Moose

I totaly agree with you aout ROTS novel. If any part of it is opposite to movie, it shouldn't be consider as canon source. But the other elements which doesn't contradicts the movie, are defnitly a canon sources. Now, my example:

ROTS novel's elements which are not contradict the movie, are canon G. There is a scene, when Mace says Obi-Wan about his duel with Grievous. So, this scene (canon G) states LoE's version above Tartakovsky's CW version of battle of Courscant.(both C).

And about Zonakin.
Zonakin is - as I remeber - DP's concept of Anakin's prime in ROTS. It is quite helpfull, since in the movie, we can see Anakin in three different states:
1) LS Anakin - he's arround Obi-Wan's level. In a state similar to that one, he was loosing to Ventress in "Republic 71".
2) DS(?) Anakin (not blinded) - I believe, that DP is considering this state as Zonakin. In that state he's using his dark emotions, which is reffered asnew ferociousness by the script. He's ale to overhelm Dooku pretty fast, he's also able to kill Cin Drallig by few blows. In a state similar to that, he was able to destroy Ventress by pure TK.
Since - for example - Mace Windu isn't able to overhelm Dooku at all, this "Zonakin"/"prime Anakin" is above him. Mace's duel with Soa Bulq, and sparing with Saesee Tiin also can suggest, that he wont be able to beat Cin Drallig as easily as Anakin.
3) DS Anakin (blinded) - he still was using his dark emotions, but was mentally conflicted. He's unable to take any advantage over kenobi in the force, he's blinded, predictable and at the and - frustrated.

Zett, that seems reasonable except that Zonakin really just means tapping the Dark Side and that can give anybody a short burst. It gave Obi-Wan a burst to blitz Maul and sever his lightsaber, only it failed in the long run. It allowed Luke to batter Vader and strike his hand off even though he is a mere child in comparison. It allowed Exar Kun to palm Sylvar's face in a melee and drive her to the ground for a decisive defeat and powered his amulets. We see rage in many situations give boosts to combatants, though usually in Sith it is longer lasting because they are used to it.

Sith like Sidious, Malgus, Kun, Sion and OT Vader use rage the same way some of us use caffeine - almost continuously. But we'd be flawed to assume that any of the above are "in the Zone" by virtue of their anger any more than a pissed off Rocky pummeling Ivan Drago is "tapping his full potential and can overcome anyone"

I see three factors here:

1. Zonakin is not replicated without outside factors (Mortiskin is a victim of location and storytelling).

2. We have precedents for Dark Side burst but not for anyone else accessing full potential in a saber lock with someone else and then it dissapates magically afterwards.

3. The original source gets ALL the fights wrong, and if the fights are wrong there's no reason to accept anything in them not explicitly confirmed by on-screen evidence or from GL himself.

Originally posted by Zett
@Stealth Moose

I totaly agree with you aout ROTS novel. If any part of it is opposite to movie, it shouldn't be consider as canon source. But the other elements which doesn't contradicts the movie, are defnitly a canon sources. Now, my example:

ROTS novel's elements which are not contradict the movie, are canon G. There is a scene, when Mace says Obi-Wan about his duel with Grievous. So, this scene (canon G) states LoE's version above Tartakovsky's CW version of battle of Courscant.(both C).

And about Zonakin.
Zonakin is - as I remeber - DP's concept of Anakin's prime in ROTS. It is quite helpfull, since in the movie, we can see Anakin in three different states:
1) LS Anakin - he's arround Obi-Wan's level. In a state similar to that one, he was loosing to Ventress in "Republic 71".
2) DS(?) Anakin (not blinded) - I believe, that DP is considering this state as Zonakin. In that state he's using his dark emotions, which is reffered asnew ferociousness by the script. He's ale to overhelm Dooku pretty fast, he's also able to kill Cin Drallig by few blows. In a state similar to that, he was able to destroy Ventress by pure TK.
Since - for example - Mace Windu isn't able to overhelm Dooku at all, this "Zonakin"/"prime Anakin" is above him. Mace's duel with Soa Bulq, and sparing with Saesee Tiin also can suggest, that he wont be able to beat Cin Drallig as easily as Anakin.
3) DS Anakin (blinded) - he still was using his dark emotions, but was mentally conflicted. He's unable to take any advantage over kenobi in the force, he's blinded, predictable and at the and - frustrated.

According to some good arguments brought up by Neph in the Revan, Malgus, Tyranus, Vader and ToR vs modern continuity thread I'll concede that OT Vader>>RoTS Anakin because that's consistent, Vader has two low ends, Maul and Luke. I count Maul canon and he was trying to best Luke in a raw duel - not relying on powers to crush the Emperor's potential "asset" prematurely, but was overwhelmed because he wasn't expecting Luke to use Force rage when he dropped the word "sister".

As for Maul, Tales, CW comics and cartoons, and everything before TPM is non-canon, especially Plagueis - except the mysterious, maybe fake, mention in Ep. III.

When I saw RotJ as a small child it was obvious to me that Vader was baiting Luke in an attempt to bring out his anger but did not really wish to kill him. I don't see any reason to reconsider that viewpoint ; Vader was basically throwing the fight WWE style, so this isn't a low point for him at all. And as for that Tales comic I recall it's canonicity pretty much in question, given other Tales that were non canon.

Originally posted by Oneness
Sounds to me like that's just normal ole Ani fighting different opponents and using different strategies - maybe fighting a little different according to his mind frame.

According to some good arguments brought up by Neph in the Revan, Malgus, Tyranus, Vader and ToR vs modern continuity thread I'll concede that OT Vader>>RoTS Anakin because that's consistent, Vader has two low ends, Maul and Luke. I count Maul canon and he was trying to best Luke in a raw duel - not relying on powers to crush the Emperor's potential "asset" prematurely, but was overwhelmed because he wasn't expecting Luke to use Force rage when he dropped the word "sister".

As for Maul, Tales, CW comics and cartoons, and everything before TPM is non-canon, especially Plagueis - except the mysterious, maybe fake, mention in Ep. III.

You'd better stop conceeding so graciously. If you keep it up I may be in danger of starting to like you. 😄

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Zett, that seems reasonable except that Zonakin really just means tapping the Dark Side and that can give anybody a short burst. It gave Obi-Wan a burst to blitz Maul and sever his lightsaber, only it failed in the long run. It allowed Luke to batter Vader and strike his hand off even though he is a mere child in comparison.

I think the difference there is that Anakin has a lot of internal rage built up which can make him more powerful on a permanent basis. (Which is what the ROTS Novel seems to suggest).

LOL

@Oneness is on the retreat almost everywhere.

Well, honestly, Neph have enormous knowledge and grasp of mythos.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think the difference there is that Anakin has a lot of internal rage built up which can make him more powerful on a permanent basis. (Which is what the ROTS Novel seems to suggest).

Except the novel is pretty well questionable. If I were to take anything it says seriously, that would have to pass a checklist:

1. It does not take place in a scene directly contradicted by the film version (in other words, it is either identical to the movie or it is deleted scenes style context).

2. It is corroborated by G- or C-canon elsewhere.

3. The feat is replicated on a consistent basis.

While Anakin does have rage moments, cyber-Vader is leagues better and demonstrates a better control over tapping his rage.

The point of contention was "is Zonakin a valid premise" and since the one and only source material is suspect, survey says no.