Interesting......I seem to have missed a few agruments.....
As long as Vader is using and there fore channeling dark side energy,
Vaapad is still a factor...
It doesn't have to be Sidious level....
Dark Side is dark side whether a little Anakin or no Anakin buried down deep...
Vader is using the dark side....and Mace will channel whatever unknown fraction
of dark side energy Vader has against him....
Vader's TK will be a factor...I'll give him that advantage...
Vaapad is just as fast...if not faster than Ataru...
Vader will have a hard time keeping up with just Mace's speed alone.
Vader will practically give Mace that extra amp he needs to finish the fight...
How? Who does he hate more than himself and Kenobi?
Mace....
His Hatred is dark side is it not?
it's not a light side power or emotion....
So its fuel for Vaapad,which is still a factor...
imo Vader will loose not right away....but about the same time he lost against Kenobi...
hopefully not missing limbs...cause that would be embarrassing....
And hopefully not missing his head that too, would be embarrassing.
Juyo and Vaapad feeds on emotion and the dark side.
whether Sith or Dark Jedi or plain ole dark sider....
Vader is no different...only different in your minds....
The Dark Side flows through Vader not fully,but enough to tap into Vaapad...
To finish where Kenobi left off...
imo Mace still beats Vader....
Ill get this out of the way first: I dont like Mace Windu, I think hes an extremely boring and generic badass so my knowlege on him is a lot more limited than Darth Vader. That said he just has too many advantages over the dark lord and is likely to win a lot more often than not. Vader would definitely give him a decent fight, but since he is a clear underdog Ill devote my post to explaining why I think he has a chance.
Overall I think ROTJ Vader has around the same level of combat effectiveness as he did in ROTS. Though his stats are in completely different areas and he went through a period where he was much less, eventually found ways to compensate and maybe even improve slightly. Anakin didnt care a whole lot about learning and prefered to jump straight into a situation and figure it out as he went. After his defeat to Obi Wan he learned his lesson and began to devote himself to tactical understanding and force versatility. He may not have Anakins potential, but he has made much better use of what he does have. He pushed himself to the limit, while Anakin took it for granted that he was the chosen one, would always have an answer to every problem and that being the best was his destiny, regardless of how much effort he made.
As Anakin the threw himself into a fight and relied on his athleticism, agility and power, as Vader he lost a lot of the two former attributes while gaining a lot in the latter. He might not be slow and immobile but he doesnt have the quickness or explosive movements he used to rely on and to overcome that he became a very intelligent and patient fighter. Because he cant dance around with precise footwork he trained at using the force to attack openings in his opponents, multitasking tk and saber skills with ease. The environment is his weapon and hes adept at exploiting any emotional of phychological weaknesses in his opponenets.
I also feel Mace's advantages arent as potent as they seem at a glance. His shatterpoint ability is far from a sure thing, and can ultimately amount to nothing in a combat. My understanding of it is that its more of a spider sense that draws his attention to something significant than a flashing sign that appears saying 'stab here to win'. In his fight with Sidious it singled out Anakin as his weak point, Sidious had invested everything on the idea that Anakin would turn and join him and if this didnt happen everything would be lost. Despite this knowlege Mace not only failed to exploit it but was in fact blind sided and killed by the one thing he knew he could use to win. The fact that Vaders weaknesses are already obvious (control box and helmet) and his complete retooling of his fighting style to protect them amounts to Mace gaining little from Shatterpoint.
There is also Vaapads ability to use his opponents power and anger and create a self sustaining cycle of defense and offense. This worked well against Sidious who unleashed all his rage and fury, but Vader simply doesnt fight like that. Against a top tier duelist like Mace he will adopt a more defensive style that wont feed into Vaapads main strength, and when he does physically go on the offensive his advantage is because of his cybernetic enhancements, not because he is using the dark side to empower his attacks.
Having said that, ultimately Mace is just too fast and skilled. Hes top level and can fight evenly with the best in the galaxy in both straight dueling and force abilities. While Sidious did throw the fight in ROTS, its definitely valid to say he didnt throw the saber portion and Mace was able to cleanly overcome him. Vaders skills will let him hold out and do a lot more damage that most people would expect but I think Mace can answer his force powers and surpass his saber skills. Darth Vader is just fighting the clock, he cant win a majority but he can extend the fight and push Mace to his limits.
Mace wins probably 7-7.5/10, with Vaders tactical mind and extremely adaptive style giving him a few victories.
Originally posted by DecayisAwesome
Mace is just too fast and skilled.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not really. Mace has no speed feats that outweighs Vader's, only ones that equal them. Vader's fairly big advantage in power more than makes up for the rather negligible difference in raw skill, and he enjoys advantages with respect to strength and endurance.
I dont so much mean his foot speed as his saber movements. I thought Vaapads main attribute was its insane speed and multi angled attacks to the point it looked like multiple blades being used at once.
Now that I look it up again there is a quote saying it has a weakness to being attacked through the force which is one of Vaders specialities...
Originally posted by DecayisAwesomeNow that I look it up again there is a quote saying it has a weakness to being attacked through the force which is one of Vaders specialities...
I believe that quote was referring to Juyo. Vaapad is a more refined and "complete" version of Juyo, and as such, may not be prone to such weaknesses. Otherwise, Sidious would have been able to exploit it.
And no, Sidious did not "throw the fight" against Mace. He was legitimately defeated, per George Lucas' comments as well as per the RotS script - both of which are G-canon.
Originally posted by DecayisAwesome
I dont so much mean his foot speed as his saber movements. I thought Vaapads main attribute was its insane speed and multi angled attacks to the point it looked like multiple blades being used at once.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
I believe that quote was referring to Juyo. Vaapad is a more refined and "complete" version of Juyo, and as such, may not be prone to such weaknesses. Otherwise, Sidious would have been able to exploit it.And no, Sidious did not "throw the fight" against Mace. He was legitimately defeated, per George Lucas' comments as well as per the RotS script - both of which are G-canon.
That makes more sense with my impressions of Vaapad. I knew Mace had 'completed' it but never knew what that meant.
As far as Sidious goes I thought Lucas said on the dvd he was only faking defeat to further draw Anakin in. The scene always seemed to strongly suggest that to me but Its been a long time since I listened to the commentary though so I could be wrong about Lucas.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
I did. If you're referring to the description of Mace's speed in his duel with Sidious in Revenge of the Sith, it also says that he fought at lightspeed. that he fought faster than Anakin could even see etc., neither of which he is capable of.
So again, you're dictating canon and character feats? Impressive.
Originally posted by DecayisAwesome
As far as Sidious goes I thought Lucas said on the dvd he was only faking defeat to further draw Anakin in. The scene always seemed to strongly suggest that to me but Its been a long time since I listened to the commentary though so I could be wrong about Lucas.
He was only faking "weakness" after Anakin had arrived and Sidious was already on his back. GL was referring to the Force Lightning portion where Sidious attempts to fricassee Mace Windu with lightning and then says he's "too weak."