Darth Vader Vs Mace windu

Started by Oneness15 pages

I looked at the commentary, Yoda is dying, Luke is going to be on his own, Lucas says that Luke is not equipped to handle this monster, he is referring to Vader, but he's not necessarily referring to Luke's inferior combat capabilities, and goes on to say he's 'half trained' - he lacks something liken to emotionally being prepared, Lucas literally says that.

So this is exactly what I had originally asserted, Luke wasn't emotionally prepared.

In the novelization, as he stands over the defeated Vader, he considers killing the "monster" and the other "monster" Sidious, and ruling the galaxy as "retribution" for a moment.

Lucas never says it would impossible, he says it would be a "challenge" in the commentary.

There is no reason to assume that Vader was relenting, that he wasn't prepared to kill his son, the book says the contrary, and paints the portrait of Luke wearing him out fair and square just like Starkiller in TFU.

Sorry, but when you consider the context of the film, novelization, Lucas' equally "outdated" commentary - despite Vader's power level - he lost to his son fair and square, going all out.

Originally posted by Oneness
I looked at the commentary, Yoda is dying, Luke is going to be on his own, Lucas says that Luke is not equipped to handle this monster, he is referring to Vader, but he's not necessarily referring to Luke's inferior combat capabilities, and goes on to say he's 'half trained' - he lacks something liken to emotionally being prepared, Lucas literally says that.

It's pretty clear he's referring to combat abilities. Saying he's talking about emotions is a bit of a stretch.

Originally posted by Oneness
Sorry, but when you consider the context of the film, novelization, Lucas' equally "outdated" commentary - despite Vader's power level - he lost to his son fair and square, going all out.

How's it equally outdated?

ROTJ Novel was many years Pre Prequels. Lucas' audio ROTJ commentary was while he was finishing ROTS.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's pretty clear he's referring to combat abilities. Saying he's talking about emotions is a bit of a stretch.

He never says anything about power. Yoda wasn't just training his body, but his mind too. Lucas does use the word 'emotional' in that very part of the commentary, he does say Luke by all right shouldn't be equipped - after all he's the only Jedi alive, where is his rock? He's all alone, is he equipped to deal with the fear and hatred that his father experienced without turning to the dark side? These were the statements made by Lucas in a nutshell, yes, but nothing about Vader relenting, or Vader jobbing to Luke. Yoda himself claims that Luke has all the training he needs - implying that the rest is up to the will of the Force. Note he'd already fought Vader one on one, he had experienced his father's powers - that itself should consolidate his training, it wasn't training, it was better, it was the real thing. Combat wise, but he had trouble accepting who his father had become. "[unfortunate that] not ready for the burden were you." Lucas even hints to the novel referring to Vader as this 'monster'; Lucas clearly had a part to play in the novel.

It's looking pretty conclusive now, the novel has not been debunked or contradicted by the films, or the films commentaries.

If you want to go deep into the EU, the commentary is equally outdated - even if it happened years and years after the film's release - the development of the clone wars weren't that controversial.

Originally posted by Oneness
He never says anything about power. Yoda wasn't just training his body, but his mind too. Lucas does use the word 'emotional' in that very part of the commentary, he does say Luke by all right shouldn't be equipped - after all he's the only Jedi alive, where is his rock? He's all alone, is he equipped to deal with the fear and hatred that his father experienced without turning to the dark side? These were the statements made by Lucas in a nutshell, yes, but nothing about Vader relenting, or Vader jobbing to Luke. Yoda himself claims that Luke has all the training he needs - implying that the rest is up to the will of the Force. Note he'd already fought Vader one on one, he had experienced his father's powers - that itself should consolidate his training, it wasn't training, it was better, it was the real thing. Combat wise, but he had trouble accepting who his father had become. "[unfortunate that] not ready for the burden were you." Lucas even hints to the novel referring to Vader as this 'monster'; Lucas clearly had a part to play in the novel.

He says there's the question of his training that it's not complete, and it's as a result of that incomplete training that he's not fully equipped to face Vader.

So it's pretty clear what that means. At best you can say he's not fully equipped in any aresa, combat or emotionally. But to say he's solely talking about Luke's "emotional" training, is a big big stretch.

Originally posted by Oneness
It's looking pretty conclusive now, the novel has not been debunked or contradicted by the films, or the films commentaries.

It's benn debunked in many ways by the Prequels, and Lucas's post Prequel commentary.

The whole story has changed now so that Owen is not Kenobi's brother and Luke wasn't fully trained by ROTJ.

Originally posted by Oneness
If you want to go deep into the EU, the commentary is equally outdated - even if it happened years and years after the film's release - the development of the clone wars weren't that controversial.

The latest EU stuff has Vader as an absolute beast, that no Padawan (even if they are a Skywalker) could defeat. So the latest material seems to be going hand in hand with Lucas's latest comments on the matter.

The fact is Lucas originally meant ROTJ Luke to be a fully trained Knight who was Vader's equal. But he's clearly changed his mind since then. Luke hardly had any training at all.

We've seen in the Prequels Padawan Anakin with 10 years of training under Kenobi being no match for Count Dooku. So Luke with a few days/weeks of training under Kenobi and Yoda, then just training himself for 4 years isn't going to be fully equipped yet to challenge Vader just like Lucas has said now.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The latest EU stuff has Vader as an absolute beast, that no Padawan (even if they are a Skywalker) could defeat.

Except Starkiller, who was by no stretch of the imagination as quick to develop powerful abilities as a Skywalker.

Not really, we have Jedi excelling this fast, take HoT. Then there's Bane, Zannah, Exar Kun, Kyp Durron, Vitiate. Then there's Plagueis Palpatine for chrissakes. Characters depicted as being uber Force sensitives do crazy feats when they're pushed to the extremes (emotionally) like Luke in RoTJ, or Anakin aboard the Invisible Hand in RoTS. At one point Luke amputates an Uber Sidious' saber hand - that was a momentary leap in power beyond what's normally depicted of the extremely powerful Jedi master throughout the JA era.

Vader had extreme difficulty with Darth Maul - he was prepped for Starkiller II way more so than for Luke or any other Jedi he had fought.

So the latest material seems to be going hand in hand with Lucas's latest comments on the matter.

Lucas didn't really say whether or not Vader was holding back. You seem to be blowing that little message wayyy out of proportion, you can't stretch it over the novelization because of TCW and Empire era EU.

The fact is Lucas originally meant ROTJ Luke to be a fully trained Knight who was Vader's equal.

Not even in the novel does Yoda recognize Luke as a fully trained Jedi Knight until after he beats Vader. When Luke says, "Than I am a Jedi Knight" Yoda chuckles.

But he's clearly changed his mind since then. Luke hardly had any training at all.

I don't know why you'd make the mistake of thinking Luke was ever meant to have completed his training, Luke returns to Degobah for the sole purpose of completing his training, but Yoda is on his death bed when he arrives.

We've seen in the Prequels Padawan Anakin with 10 years of training under Kenobi being no match for Count Dooku.

Because Count Dooku was a monster, without the limitations Vader suffered from.

Did you read Rise of Darth Vader (where it describes how the Sidious designed the suit to restrict Vader)? ROTS (where it is stated that Vader was like a painter gone blind)? TFU (Where Sidious down right exclaims that "Lord Vader is a broken shadow of his former self!"😉

It's a mistake to consider Vader = RoTS Anakin, even without the Zone.

So Luke with a few days/weeks of training under Kenobi and Yoda,

We're not sure how long he was on Degobah, but he learned enough to construct his lightsaber, in Dark Horse' Star Wars #8 (very new and up to date in the EU) Luke Skywalker uses a Jedi Mind trick - having only witnessed it once in his entire life on Tatooine.

then just training himself for 4 years isn't going to be fully equipped yet to challenge Vader just like Lucas has said now.

He never used the word 'challenge' - he used the word 'handle'; there's a big difference. Challenge would be more combative oriented, 'handling' implies emotions; especially in the context it was used and in what else Lucas was saying.

He didn't say, "Not equipped to handle Vader"; he said "Not equipped to handle the monster" and in the novelization Luke finds that the monster is not Vader, or even Sidious, it is the evil in them, in him.

With Lucas' choice of words, it is obvious he had a say in the novelization, and that even after releasing the PT he still felt that the exact same way.

Mace wins then? Good.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Mace wins then? Good.
Pretty handily.

But Zonakin stomps. 31

Zonakin is a concept of Matthew Stover's apocrypha-style RotS novelization. In the same way Obi-Wan is not Owen's brother by virtue of random novelization that is retconned by G-canon, the RotS novelization is likewise not legitimate.

[list]G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie)[/list]

Fact: Zonakin is a fan interpretation of Anakin's moment of overcoming the previously thought superior Dooku in a moment of Dark Side embracing/potential tapping/mental clarity/physical strength, etc. When this concept originated, Anakin was not the contender to Dooku he was in the CW series, and in fact had been ranked below except for his shining moment.

This concept then grew into this all-powerful, immeasurable entity that could beat anyone, when in fact it was an interpretation of a moment in a work that is effectively outdated to the proper movie which it is based on (The list of differences between the two is greater than any other novelization)

In fact, let's review those changes:

Wait, I don't have that kind of space. I'll just have to link everyone to the Wookiepedia page which covers the many many variations.

Let's show case some:

[list]While the duel between Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Count Dooku is relatively short in the movie, its appearance in the novelization depicts it as the longest one in the story. Added elements include Dooku using the Force to fling chairs and tables against the two Jedi.
Before the duel itself, there is a short conversation between Palpatine and Dooku, revealing the plan which Palpatine used to lure Dooku into the confrontation with Anakin, his new candidate for apprenticeship. Palpatine tells Dooku that the objective of the duel is to kill Obi-Wan and surrender to Anakin, thus creating the right public story to allow the three of them to take over the galaxy. This was the first scene ever to appear in the novelizations which confirms that Darth Sidious and Palpatine are the same individual.

In the novel, Dooku is depicted as being clearly overpowered by the Jedi, with both Obi-Wan and Anakin being nearly as powerful as he is. He panics and spends most of his energy to take out Obi-Wan before Anakin kills him.

After Dooku is disarmed and Palpatine urges Anakin to kill him, it becomes obvious for Dooku that he had been used as a pawn and a decoy, who never possessed the true powers of a Sith. His last thought was, "Treachery is the way of the Sith".

Also, Anakin's guilt at having killed Dooku in cold blood lasts much longer than in the movie.[/list]

Interesting. Let's look at another:

[list]In the book, Grievous lacks the sickly cough and is described as virtually unbeatable. He is also described as being unable to laugh, which he did in the film. However, he does fear both Anakin and Obi-Wan, who he notices are much deadlier than any other Jedi he has faced. During the duel with Obi-Wan, Grievous finds himself completely outmatched. When Obi-Wan and Grievous fight on the landing platform, Obi-Wan is able to severely damage Grievous's limbs simply by using the Force.[/list]

Also interesting. Let's look at the arrest of the chancellor:

[list]The Jedi cornered the Dark Lord, trying to stop his escape. Sidious sprang into action quickly. During the duel, Saesee Tiin was beheaded when Sidious tricked him and caught him off guard. Agen Kolar was then impaled through the head by Sidious's lightsaber. In the movie, Kolar dies first (effectively making him the first victim of the Great Jedi Purge), followed by Tiin with a slash at the side, and although both die of different lightsaber markings, Tiin is not beheaded, and Kolar was slain from a chest wound. Kit Fisto and Mace Windu, who survive due to their prowess, take the Chancellor on in a final attempt to make him stand down.

--

Whether it was an intentional trick on the part of Sidious or whether Windu truly out-sparred the Sith Lord is confirmed in neither the movie nor the novel. Mace confessed, however, that Vaapad could not overpower the Sith Lord, and it was his shatterpoint ability which allowed him to gain the upper hand. In the book, Mace Windu did not kick Sidious's jaw, and he sliced the Chancellor's weapon in half rather than knocking it from his grasp. It should be noted that in actuality, this would be impossible as the casing of Palpatine's lightsaber is built out of lightsaber-resistant Phrik alloy.[/list]

HRM. Maybe something like Yoda vs. Sidious will be closer to the film:

[list]In the novel, it became clear that Darth Sidious was indeed superior to Yoda in lightsaber combat. Yoda also realized that the Jedi Order mistakenly focused on fighting the old Sith rather than the new, evolved Sith of Darth Bane's order. Yoda described that "he had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born." However, he was able to learn a new insight "which held the hope of the galaxy" during the battle.
Yodakick
In the book, Yoda entered the Chancellor's holding office from a different direction, so the Royal Guards did not attempt to stop him and Mas Amedda left the office before any exchange was made. Palpatine's Force lightning was deflected by Yoda and blasted the Guards into unconsciousness rather than Yoda being knocked across the office. But then Sidious increases the power of it, and Yoda goes unconscious. Yoda knocks Palpatine to the floor with his physical body instead of a Force push.
In the novel, Palpatine is shown to be happy that Yoda has arrived, because he now has the chance to kill the famed Jedi himself. Unlike the film, where Palpatine cowardly tries to escape and only fights when Yoda allows him no other option. In the novel, he cherishes the chance to battle his foe, and even greets him with a "Happy Empire Day!" upon Yoda's entry.

Palpatine and Yoda then move to sabers. They ignite their weapons and have a vicious lightsaber duel. Unlike the film, which had a classic saber duel between the two masters, the novel describes them as trading kicks and blows as well as Palpatine using his lightning. The saber duel is on ground, but then goes on the podium into the Senate, just as the movie shows. The two opponents then hurl Senate pods to at each other, just like in the movie. However, in the movie, both Yoda and Palpatine use the Force to hurl the pods, whereas in the novel, one uses the Force and the other uses the controls. Palpatine and Yoda then proceed to have a lightning battle as in the movie.

At the end of the battle, the lightning energy ball did not explode. Sidious leapt safely to a nearby podium, and the Grand Master followed. At this point, Yoda is "out" of Force energy. Palpatine turns around and blasts Yoda, who was still in the air, back against another podium; Yoda then fell to the bottom of the Senate Chamber.

Palpatine himself was not knocked over by any blast, but he was described as "a very old, very tired man" after the epic battle. Palpatine could not direct the search for Yoda as he hurried to rescue Darth Vader, but he told the clones to destroy the whole building if they had to.[/list]

I HEREBY DECLARE THE BOOK AS HERESY!

BRING IT FORTH INTO A PILE AND BURN IT SO THAT THE HEAVENS MAY SEE IT FROM AHIGH!

NO MORE SHALL OUR CHILDREN LISTEN TO THESE VILE LIES WHICH LEAD THEM ASTRAY.

NAY, BRETHREN, I SAY LET US BE FREE FROM EVIL AND FOULNESS AND ZONAKIN!

LET US BE FREE!

Zonakin, or Anakin in 'le zone' of being his potential badass... Wasn't that Anakin on Mortis, when he was all choking up the Son and Daughter and all?

I mean, that makes more sense than the RotS novelization which honestly, was blatantly just him tapping his rage.

Just wondering, if I got that right? That's how it seems to be for me.

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
Zonakin, or Anakin in 'le zone' of being his potential badass... Wasn't that Anakin on Mortis, when he was all choking up the Son and Daughter and all?

I mean, that makes more sense than the RotS novelization which honestly, was blatantly just him tapping his rage.

Just wondering, if I got that right? That's how it seems to be for me.

The events of Mortis took place pretty much in the Force's womb, so yeah, pretty sure he tapped both his power and its in the moment. He was practically conceived for that purpose, and then to go on massacre kids and be a dick until his kid redeems him in less time than it takes to watch House of Cards.

But Stover's book is again, HERESY.

Yep. I've discussed this many times and have to conclude that the novel is simply too far from the movies to be taken seriously in canon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yep. I've discussed this many times and have to conclude that the novel is simply too far from the movies to be taken seriously in canon.

*brofist*

Like how in the novel it says Windu is barely blocking Sidious' lightning, but in the actual movie he's constantly pushing his lightsaber towards Sidious. Or Grievous' 20 strikes a second thing, when Grievous doesn't even strike 20 times before Kenobi cuts his hand off. The whole Dooku fight doesn't gel at all. The Anakin/Kenobi duel is different and cannot be stitched into the movie. The Windu fight is completely different and blatantly contradicts the movie. I could go on here.

The only scenes from the book I'd keep as canon are those that don't appear in the movie at all. Other than that, the book is an excellent read and nothing more.

List of growing EU apocrypha:

1. RotS novelization
2. TPM novelization
3. RotJ novelization
4. Splinter of the Mind's Eye

Originally posted by Oneness
Except Starkiller, who was by no stretch of the imagination as quick to develop powerful abilities as a Skywalker.

Ok. But he had a good 10 years hard core Sith training. So don't care how talented Luke was, he wasn't going to match that level of power by ROTJ.

Originally posted by Oneness

Not even in the novel does Yoda recognize Luke as a fully trained Jedi Knight until after he beats Vader. When Luke says, "Than I am a Jedi Knight" Yoda chuckles.

I don't know why you'd make the mistake of thinking Luke was ever meant to have completed his training, Luke returns to Degobah for the sole purpose of completing his training, but Yoda is on his death bed when he arrives.

So if you admit he wasn't fully trained then what are we arguing about?

We both agree with Lucas's statement that Luke wasn't fully trained and therefore not yet ready to handle a Sith Lord.

Originally posted by Oneness
Because Count Dooku was a monster, without the limitations Vader suffered from.

Vader even with his limitations was as powerful as Count Dooku:

"You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that." - George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview 2005.

So his potential power was still on par with the likes of Darth Maul and Count Dooku. Of course Darth Maul hadn't realized most that power as he got chopped up pretty young, and then reemerges in TCW after not training at all and being in a straight jacket for 10+ years. But OT Vader and Count Dooku had time to realize most their potential (except for any Dark Side Knowledge secrets Palpatine kept from them).

And that is why Vader was 80% of the Emperor.

Originally posted by Oneness
Did you read Rise of Darth Vader (where it describes how the Sidious designed the suit to restrict Vader)? ROTS (where it is stated that Vader was like a painter gone blind)? TFU (Where Sidious down right exclaims that "Lord Vader is a broken shadow of his former self!"😉

That was Vader right after his injuries. He had 20+ years by the OT to Master the Dark Side, and was getting the hang of his suit by the end of the novel RODV.

Don't underestimate how powerful Vader was just because of his injuries. This is from the official site:

Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful.

Originally posted by Oneness
It's a mistake to consider Vader = RoTS Anakin, even without the Zone.

So then you think Non-Zone Anakin is greater than "80%" of the Emperor?

So how powerful do you think Non-Zone Anakin is then? 90-100% of Sidious??

Originally posted by Oneness
He never used the word 'challenge' - he used the word 'handle'; there's a big difference. Challenge would be more combative oriented, 'handling' implies emotions; especially in the context it was used and in what else Lucas was saying.

Your right "Challenge" would mean competitive combat, whilst "Handle" means your not even in that persons league.

Again unless Lucas specifically stated he was just talking about emotions, there's absolutely no reason to assume that. The fact that he starts by saying "he's only half trained," implies the context of not being able to "handle" Vader, because it clearly means he doesn't have the skill set to do so.

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
Zonakin, or Anakin in 'le zone' of being his potential badass... Wasn't that Anakin on Mortis, when he was all choking up the Son and Daughter and all?

I mean, that makes more sense than the RotS novelization which honestly, was blatantly just him tapping his rage.

Just wondering, if I got that right? That's how it seems to be for me.

If against Dooku he wasn't in a Zone State described by Stover, and was simply just using his rage, then that just simply means ROTS Anakin is more powerful than Count Dooku. End of. That should make Skywalker debates easier for me : )

Oh, so it's G Canon because they've never needed to *update* the novelization. It has slight differences, or added stuff, none of it is non-canon - as Lucas had a say in all 7 + much more of the EU.

No, Anakin is exactly 80% of Palpatine as of RoTS - and (purportedly) still getting stronger.

That was Vader right after his injuries. He had 20+ years by the OT to Master the Dark Side, and was getting the hang of his suit by the end of the novel RODV.

Don't underestimate how powerful Vader was just because of his injuries. This is from the official site:

Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful.

The novels are more credible than the website, Darth Plagueis flat out states that cyberdization does not inhibit ones ability in the Force.

That was after your little barely canon article was written.

Vader mastered his suit as well as he could, and his lightsaber style, but was far more limited than Anakin, and no longer had the drive that he once did. That drive allowed him a temporary boost, in which he beat Count Dooku.

Just like Luke got a temporary light side boost when beating DE Uber Sith Palpatine.

If you think that by RoTJ Vader's between Maul and Count Dooku, I'll give you that, but far closer to Maul than the latter.

Absence of evidence = evidence of absence? Lucas never said he was talking about Luke's ability to stop Vader being impossible he did beat Vader in straight combat, he said he was ill equipped to handle the metaphorical monster of the dark side in the Emperor, Vader, and himself - he used words from the novelization that he helped write for that purpose. Lucas never said Vader was holding back either.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
List of growing EU apocrypha:

1. RotS novelization
2. TPM novelization
3. RotJ novelization
4. Splinter of the Mind's Eye

You wish.

The novelizations were written after the films - and George Lucas read them, even helped write them, and he never went out and decommissioned them as non-canon. None of the examples you list contradict the film either.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Like how in the novel it says Windu is barely blocking Sidious' lightning, but in the actual movie he's constantly pushing his lightsaber towards Sidious. Or Grievous' 20 strikes a second thing, when Grievous doesn't even strike 20 times before Kenobi cuts his hand off. The whole Dooku fight doesn't gel at all. The Anakin/Kenobi duel is different and cannot be stitched into the movie. The Windu fight is completely different and blatantly contradicts the movie. I could go on here.

The only scenes from the book I'd keep as canon are those that don't appear in the movie at all. Other than that, the book is an excellent read and nothing more.

Yet you take an entire video game as canon.

So there ya go, your hypocrisy hasn't gotten you labeled as a fanboy - and that's weird.

You arguments for "Teh TOR EraHH of FREEHHHEEDOM" have been reduced to claiming a g-canon source is not canon because the novelizations imply a certain hierarchy in the Versus Forum that is not agreeable to what you'd like them to be. Neph straight said to discredit the feats in games like TFU and in the CW comics - then goes on to use feats from a game about an era that could - by your very arguments sake - be completely non-canon when pertaining Lucas' films and his entire PT/OT era, and the upcoming ST as well, and feats from a comic of the same era. Literally, I want you know that's your argument been reduced to

😐

*autodouble posted