Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But you'd be hard pressed to make an argument that he's on par with the likes of Count Dooku.
Uh....
Vader is the one who trained Galen "almost perfect lightsaber skills' Marek afterall. He also displayed great mastery in cobbling together various forms to create his unique style. He's demonstrated that he's an exemplary swordsman numerous times. He's shockingly strong and actually pretty damn fast. He's got the chops to challenge Dooku.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Back in 2005, people thought Dooku would lose to Vader because the latter had more physical strength.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I haven't watched all of CW for obvious reasons (there's not enough Ragnos) but I suspect, based on my limited experience, it overwhelmingly favors whities (Obi-Wan, Sidious, and Anakin).Also, I think there is a good argument for OT Vader stomping PT Vader. For one thing, ANH duel was entirely hamstrung by movie technology of the era. As I described before the lightsabers both required a power source hidden on the actors and were rather flimsy, so the fighting was minimal. This was alleviated by ESB, but the fights were mostly a mix of kendo and classic swashbuckling that's generic in most movies. The swordmaster, Bob Anderson IIRC, was himself an Olympic fencer.
Flash forward to the PT, you have Nick Gillard as the swordmaster and the sabers are much more resilient and cgi is advanced, so we have these wushu fights bordering on stupid. If I took the time (As I have done in the past with fights such as Sids v Yoda, TPM Finale, and Dooku v Yoda) to analyze them move for move, the PT fighters, while more acrobatic, are less efficient. They rotate like tops (which is foolish), they do not act as if they have precog consistently, and they randomly do absolutely stupid shit, like Yoda bouncing behind his opponents without striking, easily telegraphed front flips, and telegraphed stabs. The only good duelists in the PT are Maul and Dooku, becuase both were done by fighting experts. Ray Park, wushu practitioner, did Maul and an expert fencer who's name eludes me played Dooku's fighting double, although Chris Lee himself can fence.
Really swordfighting in the PT was dumb.
Exactly. I understand wanting the fight scenes to be more energetic, but they went way too over-the-top and as you say there was a lot of stuff that just looked stupid.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
His inconsistent showings in the book break precedent and skew the general tiers so much he should arguably be excluded, since he is defeated by people with lower showings than his own in the Force.
No offence but when did Galen show any inconsistency in the novel? Also I can't recall him having any actual defeats.
Dooku wasn't that weak to Djem So. It's just a stupid part of Stover's novel, which is opposite to movie. Anakin had to use his fury and anger to defeat Count. Without a that, even with Kenobi's help, he was unable to overhelm Dooku.
It's confirmed by Lucas, that Kenobi and Anakin are in their prime as duelists in ROTS. IN ANH they are just "an old man" and "half machine-half man".
Vader is not bad duelist, but he's definitly not in Dooku's or Mace's or even ROTS Kenobi's league.
Galen also isn't a top duelist. As novel, and game confirms, he was unable to find any advantage in strict saber duel over Shaak Ti, who was nowhere near to Dooku or Mace.
Still, this fight is very close, since Vader is superior force user.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Exactly. I understand wanting the fight scenes to be more energetic, but they went way too over-the-top and as you say there was a lot of stuff that just looked stupid.No offence but when did Galen show any inconsistency in the novel? Also I can't recall him having any actual defeats.
His Forcefeats include the most powerful TK I can think of, yet he struggled with Shaak Ti as Zett mentioned, struggled against an Imperial Guard, and didn't make a bloody smear out of Palps and Vader. If such feats are indicative of actual power, the guy is all over the place, from padawan to cosmic power..
Well actually...his force feats even at their highest showings do not surpass those displayed by Nihilus.
IE Nihilus lifting an entire star fleet of ships, which included the largest starship in Starwars Mythos. Furthermore Nihilus then lifted them through the atmosphere, passed the gravitational pull of the planet, and then created an artificial field of atmosphere for his crew. Nihilus then utilized his TK to hold together the star fleet in space, and move it through space with his TK.
Not downplaying Starkiller's feats, just stating they are not the highest showings of TK in the mythos.
The wound maybe and the MSG, but not the darkside nexus. I'm fairly certain all mentions of it have been to the planets surface:
"There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface—drowns them in the power of the dark side. It corrupts all life, and it feeds on death."
Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh....Vader is the one who trained Galen "almost perfect lightsaber skills' Marek afterall. He also displayed great mastery in cobbling together various forms to create his unique style. He's demonstrated that he's an exemplary swordsman numerous times. He's shockingly strong and actually pretty damn fast. He's got the chops to challenge Dooku.
Challenge Dooku in pure Sabers? Sure? A serious threat to Dooku in pure Sabers? Sure.
Flat out more powerful than Dooku in pure Sabers like ROTS Skywalker was? I seriously doubt that.
ROTS Skywalker is > OT Vader in Sabers. OT Vader is > ROTS Skywalker in Force TK. In an all out I'd say they are both relatively close.
But of course ROTS Skywalker had more latent/potential power within him.
Originally posted by Arhael
I still think so based on his saber fight with Marek. But most people would rather assume that Marek was lame in sabers despite being harshly trained like Maul from childhood.
His physical strength staggered Marek with his first blow. That alone shows the majority of Jedi/Sith could not contend with Vader's physical strength.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Challenge Dooku in pure Sabers? Sure? A serious threat to Dooku in pure Sabers? Sure.Flat out more powerful than Dooku in pure Sabers like ROTS Skywalker was? I seriously doubt that.
ROTS Skywalker is > OT Vader in Sabers. OT Vader is > ROTS Skywalker in Force TK. In an all out I'd say they are both relatively close.
But of course ROTS Skywalker had more latent/potential power within him.
Anakin isn't flat out more powerful than Dooku in pure sabers other than in a specific circumstance. They are relative equals. Plus Vader does have the suit as an advantage, since it is really resistant to lightsabers and would require a lot of punishment to get through.
They really aren't close imo. Vader would kick Anakins ass. Badly. Vader is one of the top Sith Lords in history and would overpower his younger self with a small bit of difficulty. Sure, Anakin tanked Dookus TK a few times, but Vader >> Dooku when it comes to TK.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
His Forcefeats include the most powerful TK I can think of, yet he struggled with Shaak Ti as Zett mentioned, struggled against an Imperial Guard, and didn't make a bloody smear out of Palps and Vader. If such feats are indicative of actual power, the guy is all over the place, from padawan to cosmic power..
No offence but none of those are inconsistencies. They just need a little explanation:
*Shaak Ti- That happens fairly early in the story. Galen improves considerably as the story progresses. I would speculate that his improvements were due to a) learning from the experiences of battling other Force-users and b) his growing feelings for Juno which strengthened his connection to the light side of the Force.
The point is, by the end he was a lot better than when he faced Shaak Ti.
* If you're talking about the second Shadow Guard he fights on Cloud City, Galen didn't really "struggle" against him. The novel states that "he proved to be tough work" but that just means he put up a good fight, not that Galen was really pushed to his limits, or had to use everything he had to beat him or anything.
* Using telekinesis on inanimate objects is one thing. Using it against two very powerful Sith Lords both capable of shielding themselves from it is another.
Originally posted by Zett
Dooku wasn't that weak to Djem So. It's just a stupid part of Stover's novel, which is opposite to movie. Anakin had to use his fury and anger to defeat Count. Without a that, even with Kenobi's help, he was unable to overhelm Dooku.
I think people misunderstand the whole "weak to Djem So" thing. It's not that Dooku (or Makashi users in general) are somehow unable to beat Djem So users. It's just that they can't meet them head-to-head. But they don't have to meet them head-to-head. There are other ways to win. All it means is that in a duel the Makashi guy has one less option available to him than he does against other opponents.
Originally posted by Zett
It's confirmed by Lucas, that Kenobi and Anakin are in their prime as duelists in ROTS. IN ANH they are just "an old man" and "half machine-half man".
Yes, Lucas created Star Wars and without him there wouldn't even be an EU etc, I know. Doesn't mean his word is absolute, seeing as he's far from perfect (as the PT clearly shows). Anything he says these days should be taken with a grain of salt.
Besides, I trust what I see with my own eyes over what someone tells me to think. And what I see is Vader fights better in ANH than he did in ROTS.
Originally posted by Zett
Galen also isn't a top duelist. As novel, and game confirms, he was unable to find any advantage in strict saber duel over Shaak Ti, who was nowhere near to Dooku or Mace.
Galen is a top duellist. The novel confirms that he had Vader beaten in lightsabre combat. True, he finished him off with telekinetic attacks but prior to that he forced Vader to give ground and scored three good hits on him.
As I said, he got better after his duel with Shaak Ti.