Darth Vader Vs Mace windu

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anakin isn't flat out more powerful than Dooku in pure sabers other than in a specific circumstance. They are relative equals.

Nah even in TCW he overpowered him in Sabers. It was only Dooku's Force powers that evened the odds. They were relative equals in an all out. But in Sabers Skywalker was more powerful without a doubt.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Plus Vader does have the suit as an advantage, since it is really resistant to lightsabers and would require a lot of punishment to get through.

Didn't stop Luke chopping his arm off.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They really aren't close imo. Vader would kick Anakins ass.

As much as I'd like to believe that it's just not true. Anakin's above Vader in Sabers, and by quite a margin. OT Vader failed to overpower Old Ben in Sabers, or Padawan Luke. Now I know that's slightly lowballing, but that's from the movies. And Lucas has not only outright stated that Vader and Old Ben were less than their previous selves (as far as fencing was concerned) but he's also flat out said that Vader is less powerful than Anakin was.

So what feats does he have in the EU to negate all that evidence against him being a match for ROTS Anakin in Sabers? What Saber feats does Vader have that makes you think he would kick the crap out of the guy who kicked the crap out of Count frigging Dooku?!

Naw. It very much is in doubt that Skywalkers his better. Very much.

When he was mad pissed off. In ESB Luke hits him and it barely scraps him. In TFU Marek hits him multiple times without much damage.

OT Vader did overpower Luke, iirc he was toying with Ben and when did he say that Vader was less powerful than Anakin. That sounds like utter horseshit.

I never said he's kick his ass in sabers. I said he'd kick his ass with the Force:

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Here are some of Vader's raw power and mastery in TK:

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3334419
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3334420

^ Here he force crushes a jedi's heart.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3094868

^Here he force crushes a tie fighter.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2191489
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2191490

^Here he uses the force to levitate and rip apart a giant droid.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3416107

^Here Vader force throws a huge Vehicle. Notice how small the people are to the vehicle who are hanging from it.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3334391
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3334392

^Here Vader force throws a large stone that dwarfs him in size.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2139131
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2139132

^Here Vader uses the force to collapse an entire cathedral on himself and others, and he survives it, so his durability shouldn't be in question.

These scans of Vader's TK feats do not even include his feats from TFU, and most of them were done very casually. His displayed raw power in TK exceed that of Kun's display with his energy blasts.

Also in Death Star, Vader shattered a material scientists had declared as unbreakable, in another novel he shook an entire building with his rage and in still another he shook the walls of the Jedi temple, in TFU II he threw a huge platform after ripping it out of place and I'm sure he has numerous other feats that put him conclusively above Anakin.

Vader would destroy Anakin with the Force. Sabers they are about equal. Anakin is more mobile and agile, but Vader is stronger, more durable and more skilled.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Naw. It very much is in doubt that Skywalkers his better. Very much.

When he was mad pissed off. In ESB Luke hits him and it barely scraps him. In TFU Marek hits him multiple times without much damage.

OT Vader did overpower Luke, iirc he was toying with Ben and when did he say that Vader was less powerful than Anakin. That sounds like utter horseshit.

I never said he's kick his ass in sabers. I said he'd kick his ass with the Force:

Also in Death Star, Vader shattered a material scientists had declared as unbreakable, in another novel he shook an entire building with his rage and in still another he shook the walls of the Jedi temple, in TFU II he threw a huge platform after ripping it out of place and I'm sure he has numerous other feats that put him conclusively above Anakin.

Vader would destroy Anakin with the Force. Sabers they are about equal. Anakin is more mobile and agile, but Vader is stronger, more durable and more skilled.

Of course Vader would kick his ass in a Force contest. I never disputed that. I said in the first place that this fight will go 1 of 2 ways. Either ROTS Skywalker will overpower OT Vader in Sabers, or OT Vader will Force Choke ROTS Skywalker.

But they are not equal in Sabers. Not at all. What damn Saber feats does Vader have to put him on par with ROTS Anakin, after Lucas flat out says ANH Vader and Old Ben were inferior in fencing to their younger selves? (ANH Audio commentary, during the Lightsaber fight).

Also Lucas doesn't seem to think Vader would "kick Anakin's ass" in an all out, as he outright states that OT Vader is less powerful than he was before his injuries (ESB Audio commentary during the lightsaber battle).

Hey. I love Vader. And your right the dude is seriously frigging powerful (80% of the damn Emperor), but your problem here is your seriously underestimating the guy who whooped Count frigging Dooku.

Vader will kick his butt with Force TK, but Anakin will kick Vader's butt in a Lightsaber battle. In Sabers I see OT Vader as being on par with Darth Maul at best. As shown in the comic where they fought. And that is damn good, as Maul's no slouch(stomping Opress, and Council level members), but I can't give Vader more credit than that in Sabers. There's just no feats to do so, and many statements against him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But they are not equal in Sabers. Not at all. What damn Saber feats does Vader have to put him on par with ROTS Anakin,

The fact that he actually fights with economy and doesn't spin and twirl around like an idiot the way Anakin does.

Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwy412nttI

Especially at 0:33-035, 0:48-0:51 and 1:40-1:42. Does that look economic or efficient to you?

Now watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kpHK4YIwY4

See the difference? No wasted energy, no pointless showing off or twirling the lightsabre around like it's a cheerleading baton. Nothing against cheerleading, it's awesome. But it's not something to do in the middle of a fight.

Vader in ANH is a far better fighter than his ROTS counterpart because he moves like an actual fighter. Anakin moves like a performance artist.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
after Lucas flat out says ANH Vader and Old Ben were inferior in fencing to their younger selves? (ANH Audio commentary, during the Lightsaber fight).

If Lucas flat-out stated that the grass in Naboo is red would you go with that or would you go with what you can actually see for yourself i.e. that the grass is green?

Naboo is red. INDOCTRINATION COMPLETE. REASSESSING ARGUMENT.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
The fact that he actually fights with economy and doesn't spin and twirl around like an idiot the way Anakin does.

Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwy412nttI

Especially at 0:33-035, 0:48-0:51 and 1:40-1:42. Does that look economic or efficient to you?

Now watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kpHK4YIwY4

See the difference? No wasted energy, no pointless showing off or twirling the lightsabre around like it's a cheerleading baton. Nothing against cheerleading, it's awesome. But it's not something to do in the middle of a fight.

And you don't think that the fact ANH was made more than 30 years ago has anything to do with Vader's fightning mechanics and battle effects? We know Vader is a powerhouse based on what we've seen on other sources, not the OT. In the OT, the fighting choreography, the effects, the technology aren't even close to the PT. This plays a major role and we can tell by watching any of the duels in the PT and the OT and then comparing them. If we go by your logic, every Jedi in the PT 'shows off and twirls the lightsaber around like it's a cheerleading baton'.
Would Vader look any different if there ever was a re-make of the OT with today's tech and visual effects? Of course.

Vader in ANH is a far better fighter than his ROTS counterpart because he moves like an actual fighter. Anakin moves like a performance artist.

No. RotS Anakin is one of the most accomplished duelists of his era [an era which includes Maul, Savage, Sidious, Kenobi, Windu, Yoda, Dooku].

If Lucas flat-out stated that the grass in Naboo is red would you go with that or would you go with what you can actually see for yourself i.e. that the grass is green?

That's a ridiculous example. When we see, for example, a duel between Windu and Qui-Gon but we can't tell who has the upper hand, or if it appears as if Windu was pushing Qui-Gon back, when Lucas flat-out states that in fact Qui-Gon had the upper hand, then that's what we take. When something isn't that obvious and we're just merely speculating, that's when we can settle the matter judging on what Lucas says.

I might agree that Vader is overall superior to RotS Anakin, but not based on what we see in the OT. You might want to argue your point with a different approach to the matter.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course Vader would kick his ass in a Force contest. I never disputed that. I said in the first place that this fight will go 1 of 2 ways. Either ROTS Skywalker will overpower OT Vader in Sabers, or OT Vader will Force Choke ROTS Skywalker.

Yeah, and I disagree. I cannot see Anakin beating Vader in lightsaber combat before Vader whoops him with the Force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But they are not equal in Sabers. Not at all. What damn Saber feats does Vader have to put him on par with ROTS Anakin, after Lucas flat out says ANH Vader and Old Ben were inferior in fencing to their younger selves? (ANH Audio commentary, during the Lightsaber fight).

Actually, as I recall Lucas was talking about why the fights in the OT are not as visually impressive as those in the PT. Not that Anakin >>> Vader.

Anyway, Vader has tons of good saber feats. Most of which I can't recall. So I'll mainly point out that he was just a bit below Marek in lightsabers, which is pretty awesome considering how skilled and powerful Marek was. His first strike almost staggered him and Marek wasn't exactly weak considering he could throw TIE fighters. And as you say later, he was on par with Maul.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also Lucas doesn't seem to think Vader would "kick Anakin's ass" in an all out, as he outright states that OT Vader is less powerful than he was before his injuries (ESB Audio commentary during the lightsaber battle).

Can you post an actual quote?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Hey. I love Vader. And your right the dude is seriously frigging powerful (80% of the damn Emperor), but your problem here is your seriously underestimating the guy who whooped Count frigging Dooku.

Vader will kick his butt with Force TK, but Anakin will kick Vader's butt in a Lightsaber battle. In Sabers I see OT Vader as being on par with Darth Maul at best. As shown in the comic where they fought. And that is damn good, as Maul's no slouch(stomping Opress, and Council level members), but I can't give Vader more credit than that in Sabers. There's just no feats to do so, and many statements against him.

ZONAKIN whooped Dooku. I do not see that as representative of Anakin at his base.

Anakin would not kick Vaders butt. As you say he's seen as on par with Maul. And Anakin would not kick Mauls butt. Vader can easily hold his own until he can pwn Anakin with TK.

lol

Rofl.

Lmao.

Roflcopter.

Creampie.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, and I disagree. I cannot see Anakin beating Vader in lightsaber combat before Vader whoops him with the Force.

Yeah I can go with that idea. But it's rare for that happen. The difference in Power would have to be like the difference between Sidious/Yoda and say Maul/Opress/Ventress. Which could be true in this case, but consistently tanking all Dooku's Force attacks certainly helps Anakin's case.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually, as I recall Lucas was talking about why the fights in the OT are not as visually impressive as those in the PT. Not that Anakin >>> Vader.

No in the ANH commentary of the Lightsaber fight, he says this is a much harder fight for them because Vader's all Cyborg and Kenobi and old man. His point was pretty clear, that these 2 are not the Lightsaber duelists they once were.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anyway, Vader has tons of good saber feats. Most of which I can't recall. So I'll mainly point out that he was just a bit below Marek in lightsabers, which is pretty awesome considering how skilled and powerful Marek was. His first strike almost staggered him and Marek wasn't exactly weak considering he could throw TIE fighters. And as you say later, he was on par with Maul.

Staggering Marek with his first blow was an awesome feat which I've brought up myself. But that on it's own isn't enough to say he's on par with the PT Greats.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Can you post an actual quote?

Yes:

"At this point, Vader's motives are to convince him to come with him; join the dark side. Together, they're going to overthrow the Emperor. Which is the thematic device that's used throughout the whole movie is that in terms of Sith, two of them gang up and become the dominant Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it, if he hadn't been debilitated and now he's half machine, half man. He's lost a lot of his power of the Force, he's lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful than the Emperor. But Luke has it. Luke is Vader's hope."

In the underlined part he states he's lost a lot of power in the force. And he's referring to ESB Vader (it's the ESB commentary), and comparing him to before his injuries.

And before you say he's referring to potential, he mentions that right after. So I seriously doubt he said the same thing twice in the same sentence.

There's also this from a rolling stones interview:

"You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

Again in the underlined part he seems to be saying that Post-Injury Vader was never as powerful as Pre-Injury Vader. Either way he's comparing OT Vader's power somewhere from Maul's league(maybe right after his injuries) to Dooku's league (by the OT perhaps). So we know ROTS Anakin is more powerful than that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
ZONAKIN whooped Dooku. I do not see that as representative of Anakin at his base.

Ok but even angry Anakin overpowered Dooku in Sabers in their last CW confrontation.

And do you admit Zonakin would take down Vader?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anakin would not kick Vaders butt. As you say he's seen as on par with Maul. And Anakin would not kick Mauls butt. Vader can easily hold his own until he can pwn Anakin with TK.

Yeah that's possible. But Skywalker's definitely the more powerful Saber duelist. That's where Young Vader applied most his raw power. Whilst OT Vader applied most his raw power to TK applications.

^

The difference in Power would have to be like the difference between Sidious/Yoda and say Maul/Opress/Ventress.

No way. As you pointed above, Vader was never as strong as the Emperor. And Anakin is one or two leagues above Opress/Ventress in tanking force powers. Probably above Maul too.
And Vader's TK is in fact strong. But facts are, that with this great TK he was unable to overhelm Dark Woman or Obi-Wan Kenobi or Darth Maul.

Windu is going to have a hell of a time breaking Vader's defense.

Then again, if Darth Maul almost did, Windu can easily. However, the problem is that just before ANH, in TFU II; Vader finally learned to control his feelings - and going into a better defense than even Obi-wan could conjure, allowing him to stalemate the more powerful and skilled Starkiller Clone.

This fight would be so ****ing close - but Luke overwhelmed Vader, catching him by surprise in Ep. VI. It depends, I'd say more times than not Vader wins by virtue of being stronger in the Force, having a far better defense, when he's patient it might be difficult for Windu to find a shatterpoint and his Vapaad would not have too much to draw on like it did during his fight with Sidious - where the disparity of three dying Jedi and the fervent hatred of Sidious in concert with Vapaad transformed Windu into a superconducting loop capable of stalemating one of most powerful Sith of all time.

I'm one of those Sidious fans who believe Sidious probably lost to Windu on purpose but still I don't think Vader would be able to do that to Sidious. Vader has more impressive force skills and achievements no doubt but still I would say Windu would take this by 55/45

Originally posted by Sinious
I'm one of those Sidious fans who believe Sidious probably lost to Windu on purpose

Windu was feeding off the dark and light side, and they were momentarily equal in power - the fight would have 'gone on forever' if Windu's shatterpoint charism had not revealed Sidious' shatterpoint, Anakin. [ROTS novelization]

but still I don't think Vader would be able to do that to Sidious.

I agree, he couldn't accept what he had become, and Sidious was the closest thing he had to a friend. The only thing holding him back was his compassion.

Whereas Windu's Vaapad allowed him to feed of Sidious' hatred and remain aligned to the lightside, boosting his power way above normal levels - this wouldn't work with Vader.

Vader has more impressive force skills and achievements no doubt but still I would say Windu would take this by 55/45

Originally posted by Oneness

I agree, he couldn't accept what he had become, and Sidious was the closest thing he had to a friend. The only thing holding him back was his compassion.

I meant he isn't powerful enough to do that to Sidious.

Also if you think Windu is equally powerful with Sidious why would you say "nah" to 55/45 since Vader is %80 of Sidious.

Originally posted by Sinious
if you think Windu is equally powerful with Sidious why would you say "nah" to 55/45 since Vader is %80 of Sidious.

I said Windu is normally not that powerful, and that a duel with Vader will not make Windu a superconducting loop like Sidious did - and that Vader is stronger in the Force, and if he's smart about it like he was against Starkiller 2 in TFU2, he should win this.

Asking cause I don't know.

Why was Windu able to do that with Sidious since I take it that he can't with other sith lords?