Darth Vader Vs Mace windu

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and he is the one who said Vader is 80% as powerful as Sidious. I doubt Dooku or Windu are more powerful than that.

Yes, I believe they'd cream Vader far more expediently than RoTJ Luke, and regret voting for Vader out of a momentary brainlock.

Starkiller II's form was designed by Vader to allow him to fall into an unbeatable defense - Starkiller II's style =/= Windu and Dooku's superior styles to all, perhaps even Tulak Hord and NJO Luke, or at least rivaling the greatest styles.

Originally posted by Oneness
Mace Windu and Dooku certainly were, and this was demonstrated (Yoda: Dark Rendezvous; Shatterpoint): refer to the Darth Tyranus Vs Revan | Vader Vs Malgus + Revan, HoT, Malgus Vs Caedus, Krayt, Anakin threads for a more in depth and complete explanation to why Windu and Dooku were right there with Vader in the 80% of Sidious pool.

I didn't rule out them being up there with Vader. I just highly doubt that either of them are much more powerful than the whopping 80% of the Emperor that Vader has to fame.

Originally posted by Oneness
Yes, I believe they'd cream Vader far more expediently than RoTJ Luke, and regret voting for Vader out of a momentary brainlock.

Well neither of them are going to cream someone whose 80% as powerful as the Emperor.

Lucas confirms in the ROTJ commentary that Luke wasn't fully equiped yet to take on Vader. So that obviously means Vader was just conflicted as hell and holding back against Luke.

Originally posted by Oneness
Starkiller II's form was designed by Vader to allow him to fall into an unbeatable defense - Starkiller II's style =/= Windu and Dooku's superior styles to all, perhaps even Tulak Hord and NJO Luke, or at least rivaling the greatest styles.

Vader didn't just outright design Starkiller's form. His form in TFUII was Jar Kai mastery rooting from Ataro/Niman. Which was already a pretty different style to the one the Original Starkiller most frequently used. So I'm not sure just how much of an advantage Vader had, if any.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lucas confirms in the ROTJ commentary that Luke wasn't fully equiped yet to take on Vader.

I believe he was referring more to Luke's ability to resist being emotionally compromised in that instance.

The novelization, which Lucas of course had a major part in, states that the very mention of Leia drove Luke over the edge, and he though about killing his evil father the evil Emperor, and ruling the galaxy, even.

So he was just about corrupted - the novelization also clearly states that Vader was surprised, was humiliated and enraged by, and feared Luke's new powers, developed since their battle on Bespin.

So that obviously means Vader was just conflicted as hell and holding back against Luke.

Conflicted yes, the only thing preventing Vader from becoming 200% of Sidious was his 'conflict' - as Plagueis states that cyberdization does not effect innate Force ability, Qui Gon also says that the Force is not mutually exclusive to the midi-chlorians, but they are drawn and more abundant in stronger Force sensitives.

Vader was not, however, holding back - he was desperately trying to get back at Luke for being humiliated by his superiority, trying even to make Luke fight without holding back, so as to challenge himself against his son - Vader aggression turned into a desperate attempt to survive Luke's assault after dropping the name Leia; more so than in TFU.

Much of this was probably due in part to Vader's over-cumbersome armor ("head bumped a beam as he was forced back"😉 and him trying to guard his respirator.

Windu, with around Vader's unlocked power (assuredly far greater than RoTJ Luke's) would trash Vader.

Originally posted by Oneness
I believe he was referring more to Luke's ability to resist being emotionally compromised in that instance.

The novelization, which Lucas of course had a major part in, states that the very mention of Leia drove Luke over the edge, and he though about killing his evil father the evil Emperor, and ruling the galaxy, even.

So he was just about corrupted - the novelization also clearly states that Vader was surprised, was humiliated and enraged by, and feared Luke's new powers, developed since their battle on Bespin.

The majority of that novel has been completely revamped since the PT. Owen is not Ben's brother for instance.

In the audio commentary, Lucas specifically talking about how Luke's training is only half complete, and he's not fully equipped to deal with the likes of Yoda. He says it on the Dagobah scene where Luke goes back to Yoda.

So yeah, he's not just talking about emotions. Emotionally Luke was ready for Vader in ROTJ. That's why Luke faced him and the Emperor without turning to the Darkside. Whilst it was actually Vader who reverted back to the Lightside. That right there shows who was the conflicted one during that fight.

Originally posted by Oneness
Vader was not, however, holding back - he was desperately trying to get back at Luke for being humiliated by his superiority, trying even to make Luke fight without holding back, so as to challenge himself against his son - Vader aggression turned into a desperate attempt to survive Luke's assault after dropping the name Leia; more so than in TFU.

Of course Vader was holding back, otherwise he would have Force choked Luke as soon as the fight began.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The majority of that novel has been completely revamped since the PT. Owen is not Ben's brother for instance.

Ben wasn't Ben, Ben was Obi-wan - this could have been a lie; like the one which says Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin; when in fact they're the same person.

In the audio commentary, Lucas specifically talking about how Luke's training is only half complete, and he's not fully equipped to deal with the likes of Yoda. He says it on the Dagobah scene where Luke goes back to Yoda.

Yes, Yoda's training was cut short by the Bespin incident - but Yoda says himself that Luke had already acquired "have you all the training needed", in the film.

So yeah, he's not just talking about emotions. Emotionally Luke was ready for Vader in ROTJ. That's why Luke faced him and the Emperor without turning to the Darkside. Whilst it was actually Vader who reverted back to the Lightside. That right there shows who was the conflicted one during that fight.

Luke would have died if it weren't for Vader's unexpected conversion - but I'll concede and rest my case that Luke wasn't ready for the Emperor, which was why Yoda gave him special direction to beware the Emperor's power.

Of course Vader was holding back, otherwise he would have Force choked Luke as soon as the fight began.

Yes because Vader can Force choke any Jedi that he's stronger than - which worked great on Mustafar.

Originally posted by Oneness
Ben wasn't Ben, Ben was Obi-wan - this could have been a lie; like the one which says Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin; when in fact they're the same person.

Yeah except he wasn't lying to Luke anymore by this point. And what kind silly, pointless lie would that have been anyway?

The novel's mostly been revamped since the prequels.

Originally posted by Oneness
Yes, Yoda's training was cut short by the Bespin incident - but Yoda says himself that Luke had already acquired "have you all the training needed", in the film.

Well Lucas disagrees with Yoda. Like I said, it may have been the original intention to have Luke be a proper ass kicking Jedi by this point, but things have been revamped since the prequels. You know Lucas can't stay consistent over a year, forget 20 years!

Originally posted by Oneness
Yes because Vader can Force choke any Jedi that he's stronger than - which worked great on Mustafar.

What?

That was Vader a generation earlier so has nothing to do with anything.

OT Vader was a TK beast. He's force choked many Jedi Masters with ease. Padawan Luke would be easy choppings for him.

DARTH POWER, provide the quote where Lucas says Luke is not yet ready to take on Vader.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah except he wasn't lying to Luke anymore by this point. And what kind silly, pointless lie would that have been anyway?

The novel's mostly been revamped since the prequels.

Revamped? By what? The novel is still there - claiming that this wizardly "Old Ben" was Owen Lars' earthly "brother" makes sense in that Owen is trying to stop Luke from getting crazy ideas about this message for "Obi-wan" Kenobi.

Furthermore, even if that did someone contradict canon continuity (which it doesn't) - that doesn't mean other parts of the book do as well.

When you swayed me to understand that Zonakin could defeat Mace while as deeply immersed in Vaapad as he was against Sidious in RoTS - your very compelling arguments relied entirely on the novelization.

Well Lucas disagrees with Yoda. Like I said, it may have been the original intention to have Luke be a proper ass kicking Jedi by this point, but things have been revamped since the prequels. You know Lucas can't stay consistent over a year, forget 20 years!

There's really nothing that says he disagrees with Yoda or that he was outclassed by Vader - only that he was not a fully fledged Jedi Knight (which Yoda confirms) and that he was definitely unprepared for a foe like the Emperor (also confirmed by Yoda).

It seems Lucas agrees - unless you want to add something new to the mix.

What?

That was Vader a generation earlier so has nothing to do with anything.

OT Vader was a TK beast. He's force choked many Jedi Masters with ease. Padawan Luke would be easy choppings for him.

Oh yes, OT Vader needn't worry about pesky lightsaber combat, he's changed a lot since Galen Marek and Obi-wan in A New Hope by RoTJ: now he's able to Force choke everyone who's not 80% of the Emperor.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
DARTH POWER, provide the quote where Lucas says Luke is not yet ready to take on Vader.

If that were true, Mace Windu > Sidious and Yoda > Mace Windu. And that simply isn't the case.

So even if Lucas said that, it's overshadowed by the novelization and the film as well.

Well it wouldn't make sense when four sources and possibly more state that they were equal in raw skill.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Well it wouldn't make sense when four sources and possibly more state that they were equal in raw skill.

Luke showed he was able to win, the reason the far more powerful and experienced Jedi Mace Windu - one of the two premier 'greatest swordsmen' ever - would only thrash Vader far worse than Luke.

Remember, Vader is still Anakin's unlocked power as of RoTS - which is at around Dooku (who TK'd Anakin and Obi-wan, eliminating the latter before Anakin was able to tap into higher reserves for the first and last time) and Windu: And this power level alone did not ensure a less experienced Cyborg Vader superiority to Maul - who I'd place close but in deed below RoTJ Luke and TFU Galen in power level; and greater than the two as a swordsman with slightly better training and skill.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
DARTH POWER, provide the quote where Lucas says Luke is not yet ready to take on Vader.

ROTJ Commentary in the scene where Luke visits Yoda, when discussing his training.

I don't have the Dvd atm. Being borrowed. But it's something like:

"He's only half trained and not fully equipped to take on Vader."

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Well it wouldn't make sense when four sources and possibly more state that they were equal in raw skill.

Well Lucas has the final say end of the day.

You shouldn't take every and any source as gospel Imho.

It's clearly a lie as he obviously was ready.

Originally posted by Oneness
Revamped? By what? The novel is still there - claiming that this wizardly "Old Ben" was Owen Lars' earthly "brother" makes sense in that Owen is trying to stop Luke from getting crazy ideas about this message for "Obi-wan" Kenobi.

Furthermore, even if that did someone contradict canon continuity (which it doesn't) - that doesn't mean other parts of the book do as well.

When you swayed me to understand that Zonakin could defeat Mace while as deeply immersed in Vaapad as he was against Sidious in RoTS - your very compelling arguments relied entirely on the novelization.

Haven't read the ROTJ Novel in a while, but I'm pretty sure it's got all sorts of contradictions to what we now know.

Novels are almost G-Canon. Problem is Lucas has changed a lot when making the Prequels. So It's the latest thing he's saying that takes priority I think.

Originally posted by Oneness
There's really nothing that says he disagrees with Yoda or that he was outclassed by Vader - only that he was not a fully fledged Jedi Knight (which Yoda confirms) and that he was definitely unprepared for a foe like the Emperor (also confirmed by Yoda).

It seems Lucas agrees - unless you want to add something new to the mix.

He says Luke hasn't had enough training to take on Vader.

Originally posted by Oneness
Oh yes, OT Vader needn't worry about pesky lightsaber combat, he's changed a lot since Galen Marek and Obi-wan in A New Hope by RoTJ: now he's able to Force choke everyone who's not 80% of the Emperor.

It's just like Dooku stomped Kenobi with TK. Sidious didn't even need to have a Saber fight with Maul and Opress to beat them, and neither did Yoda with Ventress.

So when there's such a huge difference then yeah, Sabers won't be the decider (as long as Vader's good enough to take Luke on in Sabers that is).

Fact is no Padawan is going to be a match for Vader in a Force contest.

I would like to address one fresh and personally irritating argument you brought up, Tyranus was able to get a choke-hold on Kenobi and dismiss him with TK like Yoda did with Asajj. Mace Windu also dismissed Grievous with TK, Kenobi nearly did the same.

It must be true that, since George Lucas never says Vader is holding back throughout the fight or that he's depowered in some way more than normal because of this conflict he has had for decades (only stopping him from killing his son once), when the book concludes he's trying to kill his son by any means, affirming this when he attacks him with his guard down, that Vader just didn't have that much of a gap on Luke at that time.

That is more of an owed to Luke and Tyranus' power levels, than discrediting Vader's.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's clearly a lie as he obviously was ready.

Lol. U FAIL!

i win

Vader > Luke trololol!

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's clearly a lie as he obviously was ready.

Verily could have been referring to Bespin in past tense. Let me check.

Again, do you want to take the word of a momentary perspective that is subject to obsoletion, or do you want to alter the perspective of the current by taking the word of a novelization that has been "chosen" to be obsolete??

A strong case can be made that Vader was relenting based on the fact that comparably strong Force users like Kenobi have been dominated by TK alone, a strong case can be made that Vader didn't have the ability to dominate Luke with TK alone based on, well, all of his fights.

In one instance you alter Luke's powers, in another you alter Vader's.

OR, you can add Plot Induced Stupidity, or jobbing - if you don't want to take sides.

Either way we should have a general acceptance that Windu beats RoTJ Vader.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vader > Luke trololol!