Darth Krayt vs Darth Malgus

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Maybe

It seems likely to me.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No.

I'm pretty sure he learned it from Cade. That was the whole reason he was interested in him as I recall (I read A Legacy comic. No 4 as I recall).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Evidence have been provided: Malak versus Revan (on Star Forge). That interesting power which Malak demonstrates on Star Forge is actually Dark Healing.

No it isn't. Its Force Drain.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
But this is the latest ground reality of the lore now. Dark Council members are not just among the most powerful Sith of their respective eras but it is logical to assume that these individuals would be among the standouts of other eras as well.

Oh god..... >_<

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Analogy: a Dark Council member who is 5th best in his/her era (among thousands) can be 2nd best in another era (among thousands). Now extend this argument to entire galactic history and this individual is still likely to be above enormous number of Force-users holistically. Dark Council members have rather proven their bad@assry by becoming one unlike many other Force-users in different eras who rose to prominence in different ways.

Get my drift?

Just because some of the Council rank among the best does not indicate that all of them do. The ones that are really powerful are the guys with actual stuff to their names. There are others who have shown nothing particularly impressive that would be comparable.

And there is no era where the 5th best Dark Council member would be the 2nd best in it. Thats ridiculous fanboy rhetoric.

Lastly your last point ignores that some Sith are Dark Council members despite not being particularly strong i.e. Vowrawn and that guy from Revan. Politics play a role in the appointments as well.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Why not? Millions is an enormous figure in the context of evaluation of a Force-user.

Because as you point out, the majority of those are not very powerful. The vast majority of them are simply average Force users. Being above average isn't wildly impressive no matter how many there are.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Force-users, by default, are among the most gifted potential warriors in the galaxy. Now if these number in millions (extraordinarily high count for co-existence of Force-users in galactic history by the way) and compete with each other for supremacy then the top ones among these are logically expected to be among the most powerful Force-users of all times. Since this setting is likely to stress and test Force-users in toughest possible manner which would not be the case in other eras. So if a Force-user proves his potential in an era which presents toughest competition for him/her to prove his/he metal then their is no room left for further argument against credibility of such a Force-user in historical context as well.

Dark Council members typically have to go through a lot to become one in the first place. Some Sith have spend their entire lives attempting to become one but couldn't. I do not dismiss the possibility of exceptional cases as well such as direct appointments as per need of the hour but even these individuals have to compete to survive in the long run.

This can easily be turned against them, as the massive competition means that huge quantities of Sith die, and therefore many Sith who might have become extremely powerful are cut down before their prime. Its easily possible for a Sith who might have been Dark Council material to be killed before they become powerful enough to achieve that position. There is a reason the Sith lose so often and its because they kill off so many of the best warriors in stupid power struggles.

Your logic is incorrect. Just because there was a large number of them competing does not make them logically superior to other eras. A Sith's power is not dependent on how much they have to struggle. There power comes from the Force. And that is a constant no matter what the era. The same amount of beings would be born who are powerful in the Force in the PT era as in the TOR era.

Theres also the fact that with so many Sith they can easily fall into the trap Revan recognised: That its simply for those who are less powerful to team up and kill those who are more powerful. This happens in the game a bunch of times.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Almost nothing to his name?

1. Became a Dark Council member after proving his worth
2. Recognized as among the greatest champions of the Sith
3. Known to perform remarkably well during combat situations

Aren't you not paying attention to provided information?

Legend, that is barely anything. Yes, it puts him as one of the best Sith in the Empire, but thats hardly any information. Thats even less information than was given for Revan back when we counted him as an unknown and banned him from threads because he's such an unknown!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Decimus is just like a Skywalker or Yoda or Windu or vice versa.

Goddamn it Legend. Could you try to be less of a TOR fanboy? This shits embarrassing yo.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I do not subscribe to this kind of reasoning when it is obvious that becoming a Dark Council member requires a Force-user to be extraordinarily gifted and possibly smart as well.

Yes, I agree. They are among the best at the time. That does not make them superior to those who were among the best of their era's.

Just being a Dark Council member is not enough. That is completely retarded.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In-fact, from your list, Bane, Dooku and Maul haven't faced competition of the scope that most Dark Council member to prove their worth.

- Dooku really had it easy specially.
- Bane at-least worked his way up the ladder in a Sith Academy.
- Maul received tough training from Sidious but no competitors either.

In comparison, a typical Dark Council member had to go through following:-

1. Competition in the Sith Academy
2. Competition outside Sith Academy after graduation
3. Competition even after becoming a Dark Council member

Get it?

Who gives a shit? Facing competition does automatically make you powerful. Maul is one of the best trained Sith in history. Dooku is a complete lightsaber prodigy, one of the most powerful Jedi ever who became even more powerful as a Sith. And Bane would beat ANY Dark Council member in a fight.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If this 1000th position is out of lets say 1 billion, everybody will be impressed.

So what, the 1000th still does not compare to the top hundred. If you want to use that definition then yeah, I'll admit: Decimus is maybe one of the most powerful Sith ever, that we know of.

That doesn't change the fact that almost any notable Jedi or Sith would beat the shit out of him in my estimation.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
These millions offered cutthroat competition that no other era would have offered. Also, you expect these millions to be inferior to thousands of other eras? You are not making sense here.

That does not automatically make them superior to those of other era's. The Jedi of the time did not have such competition and they are still defeating the Sith Order. And as I said that also means that a lot of powerful Sith are completely wasted in power struggles or killed prematurely.

Just because theres more competition does not make them superior. If they have the exact same training and they are naturally just as powerful theres no reason to believe the ones from the TOR era are their superiors just because there were more of them. Once AGAIN you are taking one point and trying to argue it far beyond its actual significance. This is a supremely bad habit of yours Legend and is why you're not taken that seriously here.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That statement implies that Decimus have history of disrupting/undermining entire armies on his own. Now whether the army led by Decimus helped him afterwards (or not) to utterly rout the enemy forces is another story. This development would be a big deal for any single Force-user since a well-armed army is not a small threat by any stretch of imagination to undermine out in the open.

Powerful Force users can change the tides of battle. All this indicates is that yes he is a great warrior. This does not make him one of the best ever. Nor does it indicate that he's so powerful that he can defeat entire armies. Just that he is a significant figure on the battlefield. Like I would expect any powerful Sith to be.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I agree that Malgus's section, in the "source in question," represents only a small portion of his wartime journal. However, same source actually implies that Sidious knows much more about him in general. This is why Sidious notes this:

The writings that I have collected in this volume appear in their original forms. Many are fragments of what once were longer works, but the preservation of what remains is less important than the recognition of how they led to my new vision of the Sith Order. The following three books - The Weakness of Inferiors, The Book of Anger, and The Manipulation of Life - present how I achieved absolute power, how I shall maintain it through the agency of my Galactic Empire, and how I will reshape the galaxy throughout the ages to come.*

Ok. I'm not really sure what the point of this is, but ok.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malgus inspired Sidious to author "The Book of Anger," which is focused on the subject of learning to harness and utilize the power of the dark side in hugely impressive ways.

A glimpse of the aforementioned book:

In contrast, Darth Bane and Mother Talzin mainly inspired Sidious to author "Weakness of Inferiors," while Darth Plagueis and Sorzus Syn inspired Sidious to author "The Manipulation of Life."

In "The Book of Anger," Sidious mentions Darth Bane only in the context of his Rule of Two philosophy.

Yes, I own the book. So therefore I know that the majority of the "Book of Anger" is Sidious talking about manipulating anger in others, whether using it to control the galactic populace or inspiring it in Force sensitives. That page is the only thing Malgus 'inspired' in Sidious. Shocking news: Anger makes Sith powerful. Wow. What an insight. Nice one Malgus. Really big breakthrough there. *clap clap clap*

Malgus did not contribute anything of note to Sidious other than the Force Maelstrom. The philosophy on anger is negligible at best and does not indicate anything about Malgus that justifies the manner in which you are wanking him here. Just because he taught Sidious about anger does not make him Banes superior.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sidious also notes this:

"For it is in the anger Force-users are strongest."

We have actual evidence of Malgus being able to use his anger to bolster his capabilities to extreme levels. He is known to go "in the zone" in this manner and become virtually unstoppable at that moment. In this manner, Malgus utterly dominated many impressive adversaries during combat situations or inflicted lot of devastation.

Good for him. I'm not exactly seeing how that makes him better than Bane though.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Here is some interesting information:

"The strength of my scream buckled the bridge's transparisteel viewport and left the crew's ears bleeding. More gratifyingly, my rage overloaded the fuel slugs of an incoming wave of Aureks. The bright bursts of their deaths raised a smile."

Nice feat. You should add that to his respect thread.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is the case. See above.

No it is not. By your own admission Sidious merely referred to Malgus as 'one of' Vitiates best warriors. He can't be the finest warrior in Sidious' estimation is he refers to him as only being one of the best.

[QUOTE=14509296]Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
[B]I am not saying that anybody who impressed Sidious is the best ever. My intended point is that we need to focus on how much a Force-user impressed Sidious and in what particular manner.

The example of Ventress is a lame one because I don't think she inspired him or taught him anything. He actually regarded her as an underling.

No we don't. Sidious opinion is not something we particularly need to focus on. He wasn't there to see them fight. He doesn't know how powerful or skilled they were. His opinion is just that: His opinion. We might find it somewhat compelling but it is hardly important.

He referred to Ventress as an 'excellent warrior'. That's almost exactly what he called Malgus. They must be equal!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
See above.

I'm not seeing anything relevant above. Sidious gave it to Vader purely to help him overcome his issues. It has nothing to do with Malgus' skills as a warrior.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You have misunderstood my argument.

I have stated that Sidious regarded Malgus as the finest warrior among all the Sith he properly assessed. Heck, Sidious himself notes that Malgus was "one of the best" among those who served Vitiate. However, his assessment likely doesn't involves other paragons of TSE but is applicable to those whom he knew well and this list includes Bane.

Well that statement is wrong because Sidious never says he regards Malgus like that. And his assessment is irrelevant to Bane because he does NOT know him well. He doesn't know how powerful or skilled Bane is and has never seen him fight. Furthermore as I have said that quote does not compare the two at all. So you point is completely without merit.

If you think it is that important, revive the Bane vs Malgus thread. I will crush you on the matter a second time.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I give importance to both opinions.

You should recognise them as just being opinions, and thus they are fallible.

BTW, I apologise if I come off as overly aggressive in this reply, but you really did prattle on here and it was quite irritating to reply to.

Told you he was annoying.

I can't believe he's trying to argue freaking Darth Decimus is equal to Anakin, Mace or Yoda. ugh3

All he has to his name is:

1. Became a Dark Council member after proving his worth
2. Recognized as among the greatest champions of the Sith
3. Known to perform remarkably well during combat situations

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Told you he was annoying.

👆

The ignore function is your friend. Give in to your angerignore function...

Palpatine was pretty much the author of the circumstances that led to his rule. He personally arranged for the ascent of players like Nute Gunray, Padme Amidala, Poggle the Lesser, etc. He personally orchestrated the rise of both the Confederacy and the Republic army. Then he pit the two against each other, micromanaging a galactic war to an absurd degree beneath the noses of the Jedi and all who might oppose him. At the end, the Senate applauded him when he became Emperor.

That level of chessmastering magnificent bastardry is lightyears ahead of any other Sith.

Originally posted by psmith81992
In terms of "chessmastering" sure. But in terms of efficiency, Revan achieved virtually the same result in a fraction of the time.

Only if we become very, very liberal with the term "virtually."

Culling the Jedi ranks after a long period of intense warfare and destabilizing the Republic isn't "virtually" the same as culling and outlawing the Jedi ranks after 3 years of intense warfare that you personally engineered and replacing the Republic with a galactic empire that you rule as dictator-for-life.

Also Revan did have to advantage of the Star Forge.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Talon? Azard? Stryfe? I disagree...

Talon, the one who killed Marasiah Fel's master, repeatedly fought Cade (with some wins) and the major Sith and Imperial Knights, and who's TK is good enough to do this?

Azard? Fought Tries Sinde to a standstill, uses force barrier against big explosions and the collapse of an aquatic AT (which is a tremendous amount of sudden pressure), and such.

Stryfe? While the weakest of the hands, he did put up a fight against Cade, and did a mutual kill with Wolf Sazen.

We have no real information on the Sith Troopers other than shitty writing. I'm not sure if they can be considered when you're discussing Krayt's Sith Empire.

And, you know, Sith Troopers fighting Jedi Masters and such repeatedly, and getting quite a few kills. We saw them heavily in action in Legacy War, and they all seemed to be on the same level.

I'm going to repeat my 'are unfamiliar with Legacy?' question.

Before the sith took over, the Republic was already losing the battle. All Krayt did was destroy the Jedi headquarters and a few hundred Jedi. The rest scattered and he was no closer to his goal 7 years later.

You do realize he started the war, yes? Like, directly, it was his doing, and the Sith's overt presence played a large role in making it go badly for the Jedi/Republic so fast, too.

And he killed half the Jedi. Not a few hundred.

It's more than Krayt did. Even after Krayt's death, the galaxy functioned just fine.

As the others have noted, in both numerical and proportional terms, it's less.

And after Krayt's first death, Wyyrlok destroyed Dac. Upon his revival was a giant "OH FORCE IF WE DON'T THROW EVERYTHING AT HIM NOW WE'RE ALL DEAD!" for everyone.

After his second death and the destruction/defection of so much of their forces in the final battles, things turned against the Sith, but that was conquered planets defecting after the capital fell as did several members of the Sith's top leadership (not just Krayt, but Wyyrlok, the Grand Moff, several other Moffs, and such).

What happened after Revan left for the Unknown Regions? The Republic was close to collapse and the jedi order was gone.

The Jedi because of Nihilus, who killed hundreds of Jedi personally in a single event. Before Nihilus there were still a large number of Jedi left. Nihilus, Kreia, and Sion did a heck of a lot themselves.

And don't forget, before Revan started his campaign, the Mandalorian war had already caused a lot of casualties, and a very large chunk of the order outright defected to him, and before that the Jedi had a minor schism between the main Jedi and the Jedi Covenant in the KotoR comic. Krayt took a healthy order below half. Revan took a wounded order down a few pegs, but they still got to him, and it was the Triumvirate that almost wiped 'em.

And the Republic was still only close to collapse. The Alliance had fallen in Legacy. Note the difference. The Republic never actually fell, it just came close, the Alliance did a general surrender.

Intimately. More than you.

Apparently not, you keep getting basic facts wrong. You didn't know the Alliance had fallen, that Krayt made his order by himself, or that we'd seen the Sith Troopers in action.

Krayt didn't conquer the galaxy, he installed himself as Emperor with the help of the Moffs, and his position at the top was tenuous at best, for 7 years.

By that logic, Palpatine didn't conquer the galaxy, he installed himself as the Emperor with the help of the Senate.

Keep in mind also that were it not for the Sith, Emperor was a position that lead a pretty small chunk of space. Krayt made it big by a war of his design, the Empire being effectively his puppet force in it, then took it over.

And Krayt's position was pretty stable, the Krayt Empire very solidly had the upper hand against both the Fel Empire and Stazi, it's just his health that was making it iffy, a point that was made repeatedly in the series.

Notably, Stazi did not consider the Fel Empire a military consideration of note, even with all his Imperial Knights, until Fel managed to get Bastion to defect to him. In other words, most of the 7 years were even easier for them than during the series, and even during the series it was the main power vs resistance movements.

And, you know, Sith Troopers fighting Jedi Masters and such repeatedly, and getting quite a few kills. We saw them heavily in action in Legacy War, and they all seemed to be on the same level.

I'm going to repeat my 'are unfamiliar with Legacy?' question.

You do realize he started the war, yes? Like, directly, it was his doing, and the Sith's overt presence played a large role in making it go badly for the Jedi/Republic so fast, too.

And he killed half the Jedi. Not a few hundred.

The Jedi because of Nihilus, who killed hundreds of Jedi personally in a single event. Before Nihilus there were still a large number of Jedi left.

And don't forget, before Revan started his campaign, the Mandalorian war had already caused a lot of casualties, and a very large chunk of the order outright defected to him, and before that the Jedi had a minor schism between the main Jedi and the Jedi Covenant in the KotoR comic. Krayt took a health order below half. Revan took a wounded order down a few pegs, but they still got to him, and it was the Triumvirate that almost wiped 'em.

And the Republic was still only close to collapse. The Alliance had fallen in Legacy. Note the difference. The Republic never actually fell, it just came close, the Alliance did a general surrender.

Apparently not, you keep getting basic facts wrong. You didn't know the Alliance had fallen, that Krayt made his order by himself, or that we'd seen the Sith Troopers in action.

By that logic, Palpatine didn't conquer the galaxy, he installed himself as the Emperor with the help of the Senate.

And Krayt's position was pretty stable, the Krayt Empire very solidly had the upper hand against both the Fel Empire and Stazi, it's just his health that was making it iffy.

You can repeat whatever you'd like, I've read each comic like 10 times. They're just a huge unknown so I don't include them.

Ok, so they fight Cade Skywalker, Nat Skywalker, Shado Vao, Marasaih Fel, and a large number of unnamed Jedi and Sith (who they overwhelm in both cases).... and they're an unknown?

Apparently your reading, at best, stopped at the series proper and not War.

He helped started a war the Moffs wanted, he didn't start it. And where do these arbitrary numbers come from?

He (1) created the very cause of the war, the Vongiform plague, (2) talked the Moffs into it through his contact, and (3) used his contact on the council to help direct things.

Did you not know of the Vongiform Plague?

And issue 8, Allies, one of the moffs complains they only got half, and a Sith responds that the important thing was to break their power and organization, and they didn't want the Jedi too fortified.

For someone who claims to know Legacy better than me, I'm having to inform you of a lot of major plot points.

No, it was explicitly stated that "barely 100 jedi remained" even BEFORE Katarr.

Yea, after 3 wars and much of the casualties done after Revan- remember, Katarr happened because the Jedi were taking so many casualties despite Revan's fall from all of the Trimvirate attacks.

Think someone needs to play the KOTOR games again. The defeat of the Jedi was a direct result of the JCW, not the Mandalorian War.

It was a direct result of the JCW, but the Mandalorian war certainly helped and caused casualties, and a large number of defections as well. As did the Jedi Covenant's disloyalty. The Jedi Order was not at full strength before Revan started his purge.

The "Alliance" had fallen but you had a combination of the Alliance, the Empire in Exile, and the Jedi around. That's more than you can say for post Revan Republic, which was pretty much gone.

Around and in hiding, and as numerous people have pointed out to you, the Krayt Empire held a much bigger proportion of the galaxy than the KotoR Sith ever did.

Krayt held something like 80-90% with resistance movements running around. Revan held a third.

Learn to read. I haven't gotten a single fact wrong. I knew the Alliance had fallen, I made my opinion on the sith troopers clear, but please continue the strawman.

But you didn't realize that the Alliance falling meant Krayt had by far more of the galaxy under his control (backed up, by the way, by the Essential Guide to Warfare, which has a map of his holdings), and your opinion on the Sith Troopers shows a lack of knowledge of them.

Not the same situations, as Gideon pointed out. Krayt made a deal with the Empire/Emperor, then deposed him, and was in no better position for 7 years. HARDLY similar.

It's not the same situation, Palpatine's victory was more complete.

But they are both equally 'conquests.' Krayt's deal with the Empire was a manipulation plain and simple- just as Sidious manipulated the Senate and used them, just as Sidious manipulated the CIS leaders.

Both took power based on crisises entirely manufactured by themselves.

And both were more extensive than anyone else's success.

His health didn't determine the status of the Sith Empire and their ongoing war, they just couldn't make any real headway with Fel or the Jedi.

The Krayt Empire captured Marasaih Fel, almost captured Emperor Fel, was able to get assassins to Roan Fel, captured Antares Draco and learned the location of the Jedi Temple, and if you'd read war, you'll know they destroyed the Jedi Hidden Temple. The Jedi who had not made it into hiding were undergoing attrition before that, but the One Sith did have their major strokes against both. Plus once the Sith Trooper project was completed, neither Stazi's fleet nor the Fel Empire could last a month, they were doomed against the new firepower, and the Jedi would fall soon after.

And again- Krayt had rebellions, but he also had a much larger area of control.

Some of the Sith did also say part of the reason why other areas were going slowly in the interrum had been because Krayt was spending more attention trying to track down a way to heal himself.

For someone who claims to know Legacy better than me, I'm having to inform you of a lot of major plot points.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Strange, you choose to inform me about stuff I already know, and have given no indication otherwise. I don't know why you keep doing it. At any rate, the debate is getting longer and longer and I just can't care enough to continue.

The indication otherwise is you keep being wrong about really basic, factual, non-opinion based stuff.

Like, amount of the galaxy under control and not knowing that it's bigger than the amount Revan controlled, that around half the Jedi were killed, and Krayt's basic role in constructing the war.

Your opinion of Sith Troopers as unknowns with 'no real information,' when they were in multiple fights, both solo and group, against known characters is another example.

Your claims of familiarity with the series doesn't seem to be backed with practical familiarity in things.

The indication otherwise is you keep being wrong about really basic, factual, non-opinion based stuff.

Like, amount of the galaxy under control and not knowing that it's bigger than the amount Revan controlled, that around half the Jedi were killed, and Krayt's basic role in constructing the war.

Your opinion of Sith Troopers as unknowns with 'no real information,' when they were in multiple fights, both solo and group, against known characters is another example.

None opinion based stuff like...Half the jedi? Or a third of the jedi? That kind of non opinion stuff brought forth by you?

What opinion? It was stated in the comic, half the Jedi. "Half" is not an opinion post.

So making an argument in favor of Revan=not knowing Krayt's situation? That's poor deduction on your part.

Look, comparing two numbers is not a matter of opinion. You can make any argument in favor of Revan you want, but in terms of 'percentage of the galaxy taken over,' it is hardly up for debate.

They were involved in two fights and ARE unfamiliar. They're powerful to some extent but we're not familiar with their power, hence unfamiliar. I shouldn't have to spell this out.

One of 'em had an uninterrupted duel with Cade where it put up some fight but was outmatched. That gives a clear indication of their power alone. You hardly need a lot more when you have a direct comparison to the guy who's had the most on-page fights in the era.

We also saw them in Krayt's approach to Wyyrlok overpower some mook sith. In the battle for the Jedi temple, they were able to inflict heavy casualties and a small group killed three Jedi Masters fighting alongside the Skywalkers in a fairly short amount of time. Shado Vao also outdueled two (as in, two separately, not two at once) on Coruscant. So, three battles, but a good deal more incidents.

If that's unfamiliar to you, that's a problem with your observation, not a lack of information.

Your opinion that we don't know much about them is unfounded.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It seems likely to me.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm pretty sure he learned it from Cade. That was the whole reason he was interested in him as I recall (I read A Legacy comic. No 4 as I recall).

Originally posted by Nephthys
No it isn't. Its Force Drain.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh god..... >_<

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just because some of the Council rank among the best does not indicate that all of them do. The ones that are really powerful are the guys with actual stuff to their names. There are others who have shown nothing particularly impressive that would be comparable.

To give you an idea, two "not so well-known" Dark Council members Victun and Qalar destroyed the first Citadel of Dromund Kaas during a vicious duel between them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And there is no era where the 5th best Dark Council member would be the 2nd best in it. Thats ridiculous fanboy rhetoric.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lastly your last point ignores that some Sith are Dark Council members despite not being particularly strong i.e. Vowrawn and that guy from Revan. Politics play a role in the appointments as well.

Many upstart Sith have attempted to best Vowrawn over the years through a variety of strategies, from complex schemes to bluntly direct surprise attacks. Although some scored temporary victories, Vowrawn's talent for adjusting his strategy on the fly has left him the final victor in all these confrontations. (From here.)

The fact that Vowrawn survived, won or held his own in so many encounters/challenges during his life is testament to his capabilities as a warrior and strategist. Heck, Lord Draahg targeted him with the deadly Death Field application (if I am not mistaken) and Vowrawn tolerated it; I think that Darth Bane have a feat in this aspect.

- Xedrix was a mere shadow of his former self at the time of his confrontation with Scourge. His assassination confirms the fact that competition would automatically lead to culling of the weak within the Empire. Heavy involvement in dark side practices is likely to take severe toll on the bodies of dark side practitioners in the long run. This is why some Sith Lords seek immortality. Look no further then example of Darth Bane to understand this matter.

The purpose of Dark Council is to handle all of the important affairs of the reconstituted Sith Empire. It features 12 positions with each aimed for a different task. It is obvious that a single Sith Lord is not going to fit in all these roles so variety takes shape:

In the Emperor's absence, the galaxy's most domineering, powerful, brilliant and cunning Sith lead the Empire's path to glory.*

But make no mistake! Brilliant and cunning varieties should not be underestimated either: If Vowrawn is not such a big deal then their are likes of Baras and Jadus as well who are absolute powerhouses.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because as you point out, the majority of those are not very powerful. The vast majority of them are simply average Force users. Being above average isn't wildly impressive no matter how many there are.

Consider the example of Lord Adraas; he was impressive irrespective of how Malgus perceived him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This can easily be turned against them, as the massive competition means that huge quantities of Sith die, and therefore many Sith who might have become extremely powerful are cut down before their prime. Its easily possible for a Sith who might have been Dark Council material to be killed before they become powerful enough to achieve that position. There is a reason the Sith lose so often and its because they kill off so many of the best warriors in stupid power struggles.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Your logic is incorrect. Just because there was a large number of them competing does not make them logically superior to other eras. A Sith's power is not dependent on how much they have to struggle. There power comes from the Force. And that is a constant no matter what the era. The same amount of beings would be born who are powerful in the Force in the PT era as in the TOR era.

Here:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No! My assessment is based on canon information at my possession. You need to pay attention to my revelations to understand my position on this matter.

As mentioned above, Sith were continuously improving during the time span of existence of the first major ancient Sith Empire established by the exiled Dark Jedi. The prime of this time span is regarded as the Golden Age of the Sith. However, Vitiate further increased the standards of the Sith after the disaster of the Great Hyperspace War:

For 20 years, the exiled Sith fleet drifted through deep space. The Sith healed their wounds and reflected on their defeat. Imperial battle strategies were dissected, internal Sith strife was identified as a key weakness, and the Republic's surprise and slow move to defend itself was seen as a vulnerability ripe for exploit.

Meanwhile, the Sith dedicated themselves to training. They delved deep into the dark side of the Force, mastered new powers, and honed their minds and bodies into efficient weapons. Then after nearly two decades of planning and training, they discovered the world of Dromund Kaas.*

To uphold this newly christian-ed standard, very harsh and brutal training was norm in the Sith Academies of Vitiate's reconstituted Sith Empire:

Sith embody passion, strength, and power. Many pursue these ideals, but few are up to the challenge. Every force-sensitive being in the Empire must endure the harsh, unrelenting trails that have shaped the Sith for millennia. Some are groomed for the privilege from the moment they display Force sensitivity. Others fear the trials and hide their talent, only to be forced to face the tests. But regardless of their background, most acolytes die utter failures, their weaknesses exposed by the crushing demands of the Sith Academy on Korriban.

Whether broken by their overseer's instruction, struck down by their fellow acolytes, or devoured by the beasts of Korriban, many acolytes perish during their training. Others use the trials to hone their strength and deepen their understanding of the dark side. But ultimately, only the most fearsome, mighty and cunning acolytes rise to prove their worth and become Sith.*

Now after graduation, Sith Lords engage in further cutthroat competition to plan their ascension to Dark Council if they are ambitious enough but this competition never ends for even those who become Dark Council members:

To serve on the Dark Council is to achieve the greatest position of honor, power and influence in the Empire. Many Sith spend their lives plotting their ascension to the council, but with millions vying for only 12 seats, the competition is cutthroat. The powerful few who join the council often serve for only a month, their lives cut short by internal power struggles or external enemies who target them for assassination.*

---
*Source: Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres also the fact that with so many Sith they can easily fall into the trap Revan recognised: That its simply for those who are less powerful to team up and kill those who are more powerful. This happens in the game a bunch of times.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Legend, that is barely anything. Yes, it puts him as one of the best Sith in the Empire, but thats hardly any information. Thats even less information than was given for Revan back when we counted him as an unknown and banned him from threads because he's such an unknown!

If you want detailed information about Decimus then request the relevant authors to tell you something about him that is not known; I have already revealed what I know about him at the moment. I am not saying that we consider Decimus for versus debates but we should acknowledge his canonical bad@ssry.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Goddamn it Legend. Could you try to be less of a TOR fanboy? This shits embarrassing yo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, I agree. They are among the best at the time. That does not make them superior to those who were among the best of their era's.

Just being a Dark Council member is not enough. That is completely retarded.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Who gives a shit? Facing competition does automatically make you powerful.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Maul is one of the best trained Sith in history.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku is a complete lightsaber prodigy, one of the most powerful Jedi ever who became even more powerful as a Sith.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And Bane would beat ANY Dark Council member in a fight.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So what, the 1000th still does not compare to the top hundred. If you want to use that definition then yeah, I'll admit: Decimus is maybe one of the most powerful Sith ever, that we know of.

That doesn't change the fact that almost any notable Jedi or Sith would beat the shit out of him in my estimation.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That does not automatically make them superior to those of other era's. The Jedi of the time did not have such competition and they are still defeating the Sith Order. And as I said that also means that a lot of powerful Sith are completely wasted in power struggles or killed prematurely.

The Jedi Order stood no chance against the mighty Sith warriors of the reconstituted Sith Empire under fair circumstances but as you pointed out, Sith have this itch for supremacy and their internal rifts ruin their effectiveness. In the nutshell, Jedi Order (is not winning) eventually won because of its own power but it won by successfully exploiting the internal rifts of the Sith.

Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia makes it clear that the Sith of the reconstituted Sith Empire are superior to those of other Sith Empires. In other words, reconstituted Sith Empire had higher quality Sith then other Sith Empires ever had on average.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just because theres more competition does not make them superior. If they have the exact same training and they are naturally just as powerful theres no reason to believe the ones from the TOR era are their superiors just because there were more of them. Once AGAIN you are taking one point and trying to argue it far beyond its actual significance. This is a supremely bad habit of yours Legend and is why you're not taken that seriously here.

Read this:

Led by the great commander Ajunta Pall, who still seethed at their defeat, the Dark Jedi found refuge on the distant desert world of Korriban. Here, they encountered primitive red-skinned aliens, the native Sith species. These aliens looked on the Dark Jedi's powers and technology with awe and bowed down to them as gods.

With their knowledge, and the Sith species at their command, the Dark Jedi saw the chance for a new beginning. They set about building the foundations of a civilization that would endure for thousands of years. In a decisive break from the austerity and restrictions of the Jedi Order, the Dark Jedi exploited their role as god-like beings, adopting elaborate clothing to awe their slaves, and commanding the creation of vast temples and tombs. Over the years intermarriage between the Dark Jedi and Sith species meant that eventually there was only one people on Korriban: red-skinned Force-sensitives, who called themselves Sith.

Many ideals of Sith culture were influenced by ancestral hatred of the Jedi, and lessons learned from the original exiles. The struggles of the Hundred-Year Darkness, and later harshness of life in Korriban's deserts, were crucibles in which the weak perished and the strong ascended; proving that power only comes from enduring conflict and emerging victorious.

Freed from Jed scrutiny, the Sith were able to explore their studies of the Force, harnessing their fury and discovering strange new powers. They believed that passion was the true expression of the Force.*

Sith further improved during the famed Golden Age, and even further during the phase of reconstituted Sith Empire. This is why I believe that ancient Sith reached their pinnacle with reconstituted Sith Empire.

Therefore, my argument that reconstituted Sith Empire = highest quality. Now what is so wrong about this latest canon development?

Remember how people used to underestimate Dread Masters not long ago? Recent canon development silenced such foolishness.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Powerful Force users can change the tides of battle. All this indicates is that yes he is a great warrior. This does not make him one of the best ever. Nor does it indicate that he's so powerful that he can defeat entire armies. Just that he is a significant figure on the battlefield. Like I would expect any powerful Sith to be.

Keep in mind that the Sith went in major decline after the fall of the reconstituted Sith Empire. It was Bane who eventually improved the standards of Sith once again with aid of ancient knowledge. However, this progression stopped with the fall of Sidious.

---
*Source: Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Keep in mind that the Sith went in major decline after the fall of the reconstituted Sith Empire. It was Bane who eventually improved the standards of Sith once again with aid of ancient knowledge. However, this progression stopped with the fall of Sidious.

And Krayt re-started it again, searching heavily for ancient force knowledge, rooting his own training in that of XoXaan of the Hundred Years Darkness, and in general being on another level than the many post-Palps pretenders.

I appreciate you keeping this shorter this time (I think).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Interesting. Enlighten me with details, if you can.

I haven't read the comics. Ask Q99 if you're that interested. According to the Wookieepedia page though, Cade Skywalker is the one who invented the ability.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Force Drain is a generic name given to a spectrum of defensive and offensive applications. Dark Healing is a variant of Force Drain talent by nature. Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide points out that Kun, Malak, Sion, Traya and Nihilus specialized in the use of Dark Healing application. Revan and Nihilus possessed broader grasp of Force Drain talent with latter possibly being the absolute master of this talent in all of its forms.

Those characters possessing the Dark Healing ability in the Kotor: Campaign Guide do so only as part of a gameplay mechanic. They do not canonically possess the ability other than if they've been shown to do so outside of their listed powers there.

As for it merely being a variation of Force Drain, I'm not sure if thats true. Dark Healing may be similar, but it seems to me that you may be right about Malak possessing it if the info I have on it is accurate i.e. that it siphons life energy to heal yourself, which is what Malak does on the Star Forge.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Why not?

It was just you talking about how much better the TOR era is than any other one, therefor the people in it must be superior to those from other eras. This is exactly the argument that I detest from the PT era. I hate it! >_<

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Authors can focus on select few characters at a time while telling stories. Expanding on large number of characters in detailed fashion is a very tedious, expensive and tiresome work; too many stories to tell. We got to know about some Dark Council members because they were connected with the major stories told in SWTOR and associated content (novels, comics, sourcebooks and vice versa). This doesn't means that we should think little of Dark Council members that are "not so well-known" in the lore.

I agree, but that does not excuse the fact that they have little or nothing to their name from which we can determine their power. I do not think little of them, I simply do not think much about them at all since there is so little information on most of them. They are unknown in terms of ability. Like Revan before TOR, we know that they are powerful, but have little to go on except for that, leaving just a vague level of 'Dark Council Level'.

This rule basically sums them up:

"No fights using Unknowns. Unknowns are characters that we have had too little or no evidence of their powers, abilities, or skills. This applies to characters that have not had screen-time, or characters who only show their powers in gameplay. Unknowns include Darth Plagueis and Marka Ragnos, most notably."

This includes Decimus.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
To give you an idea, two "not so well-known" Dark Council members Victun and Qalar destroyed the first Citadel of Dromund Kaas during a vicious duel between them.

Yes, I know. Individuals like that are why I've argued in that past that the Dark Council are obviously extremely powerful and why being on the Dark Council is enough to indicate that someone is very powerful. Only as far as that though. I wouldn't argue that just because a lot of very powerful people have been on the Council that this reflects the others on there. That would be like trying to apply Yoda, Mace Windu, Kenobi or Anakin's feats to the whole PT era.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Do you understand that Sith had come a long way since the Exiles (of Hundred Years Darkness event) formed the first Sith Empire in history?

Then why does Sidious still use one of the Exiles notes for his book instead of a TOR era sorcerer? 😉

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
- Vowrawn was not a weakling:

Many upstart Sith have attempted to best Vowrawn over the years through a variety of strategies, from complex schemes to bluntly direct surprise attacks. Although some scored temporary victories, Vowrawn's talent for adjusting his strategy on the fly has left him the final victor in all these confrontations. (From here.)

The fact that Vowrawn survived, won or held his own in so many encounters/challenges during his life is testament to his capabilities as a warrior and strategist. Heck, Lord Draahg targeted him with the deadly Death Field application (if I am not mistaken) and Vowrawn tolerated it; I think that Darth Bane have a feat in this aspect.

The fact that Lord Draahg was able to walk into a room and take Vowrawn out with a single Force power (and duel the Wrath while maintaining that power) does not indicate to me that Vowrawn was particularly power. Sure, he was probably decent, but he was not a warrior. SWTORE notes that 'he survived so long largely due to to his reputation as a master gamesman (manipulator).'

Huh, it also notes that Vowrawn was the one who conspired to get Decimus a seat on the Council. Indicating to me that Decimus did not earn his way out of being worthy, but through a political deal.

Anyway, you pointing out that he's survived direct attacks doesn't mean that he defeated those attacks himself. He had bodyguards and other Sith under his command who can fight with or for him.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
- Xedrix was a mere shadow of his former self at the time of his confrontation with Scourge. His assassination confirms the fact that competition would automatically lead to culling of the weak within the Empire. Heavy involvement in dark side practices is likely to take severe toll on the bodies of dark side practitioners in the long run. This is why some Sith Lords seek immortality. Look no further then example of Darth Bane to understand this matter.

Xedrix had held a seat for the longest time, and for a long time despite being highly weakened and enfeebled. This means you're wrong that it automatically leads to culling of the weak. Xedrix had been weak for a long time before Scourge ended up killing him.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The purpose of Dark Council is to handle all of the important affairs of the reconstituted Sith Empire. It features 12 positions with each aimed for a different task. It is obvious that a single Sith Lord is not going to fit in all these roles so variety takes shape:

In the Emperor's absence, the galaxy's most domineering, powerful, brilliant and cunning Sith lead the Empire's path to glory.*

But make no mistake! Brilliant and cunning varieties should not be underestimated either: If Vowrawn is not such a big deal then their are likes of Baras and Jadus as well who are absolute powerhouses.

Yeah, I know. You don't need to remind me of all this. I've argued in other threads that Dark Council members are the most powerful Sith in the Empire (barring exceptions i.e. Malgus, Dread Masters, First Son etc).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Actually this is not the case; Sith who became Lords in the reconstituted Sith Empire were typically powerful individuals.

Consider the example of Lord Adraas; he was impressive irrespective of how Malgus perceived him.

Yeah, just like Jedi Masters from any other era were powerful individuals. I can likely cite a dozen of them who are the equal to or superior than Adraas.

This isn't representative of the standard Jedi or Sith though.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, this can happen. Quality Sith can go down as well in cutthroat competition. However, it would be foolish to assume that weak individuals are most likely to gain the upper-hand in a setup designed to ensure "survival of the fittest" because such individuals have the tendency to form alliances or only they are smart enough to exploit their surroundings to their advantage.

Yeah and Sith forming alliances to take out more powerful Sith happens all the time in TOR. This was what Revan was talking about happening and his Empire was set up as 'survival of the fittest' as well. Such individuals can form alliances yes, but others can form alliances against them if they fear their power.

Also we see the example of Thanaton killing anyone who threatens him by sending them to die in Andru's tomb.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Point is not about birth trend; point is about training and advancement.

Yeah, and having tons of conflict and competition doesn't translate into superior training. The impression we get from TOR is that most Sith get very little formal training, or if they do its only after the instructors have sent them on dangerous tasks that could prove fatal.

Kas'im's training seemed to be more thorough and useful imo. Not to say that TOR era Sith are not trained in lightsaber combat or techniques (they clearly are), but there's no indication I've seen that shows them being better trained than any other era.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I understand but my emphasis is on his holistic position of Decimus in the light of available information. Their are lot of quality Sith in the reconstituted Sith Empire and Decimus is among the standouts. Logically, if Decimus is a standout in the reconstituted Sith Empire, he is likely to be in other eras as well.

If you want detailed information about Decimus then request the relevant authors to tell you something about him that is not known; I have already revealed what I know about him at the moment. I am not saying that we consider Decimus for versus debates but we should acknowledge his canonical bad@ssry.

The fact is that while yes, I'll agree that he was a standout Sith, that doesn't put him on the level of Anakin, Windu or Yoda. You can think he is if you want, but until theres some actual information indicating that, then there is no evidence for it.

Also, didn't you mention Decimus in the first place specifically to make the point that he's on their level and to argue that?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Fanboyism? I do not subscribe to the mentality that Anakin, Yoda and Mace are untouchables. I understand that they are important G-canon characters with lot of hype going for them but I will keep my mind open.

Argh, you always say that but it means nothing! I know that they're not untouchable! I've argued that people like Vitiate, the Hero of Tython and the Barsen'thor do touch them. Because they have actual things supporting the idea that they do! Decimus does not. He is a Dark Council member. Whoopdi shit.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The lore have come a long way since this declaration. Even if I accept this declaration, it doesn't changes the fact that he would lot of peers in "galactic history."

Which doesn't mean that Decimus or any random Dark Council member is one of them.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Same as above.

And again, just because some people do rival or surpass Dooku does not mean that the Dark Council does. Some of them do, but not all of them.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Realistically some but not all. You are overreaching here.

Make a thread bro. Make any thread you want, Bane vs any Dark Council member. I'll prove Bane would win. Only Vitiate rivals him.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If you think low of him then this doesn't means that others would do the same. I have stated my reasons for why I think highly of him. If you disagree, your choice but do not expect me to respect your perception in this particular case. I hope that you have learned something from revelations above.

And I have stated my reasons for why I don't think highly. I've also said that you're free to believe whatever you want, but you've done little in the way of justifying that belief to me.

And you're the one who wanted to 'make a point' in the first place.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The Force have the tendency to balance itself. Also, it is possible that the mighty reconstituted Sith Empire also became a casualty of internal rifts.

The Jedi Order stood no chance against the mighty Sith warriors of the reconstituted Sith Empire under fair circumstances but as you pointed out, Sith have this itch for supremacy and their internal rifts ruin their effectiveness. In the nutshell, Jedi Order (is not winning) eventually won because of its own power but it won by successfully exploiting the internal rifts of the Sith.

Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia makes it clear that the Sith of the reconstituted Sith Empire are superior to those of other Sith Empires. In other words, reconstituted Sith Empire had higher quality Sith then other Sith Empires ever had on average.

Ok.

The Jedi Order is winning. Darth Marr makes this abundantly clear in the Makeb expansion when he flat out says that the Empire has no hope of winning without Isotope-5 and mentions the Republic pushing them back and conquering worlds.

Yeah, yeah, whatever. 🙄 That still doesn't mean that the top Sith of the TOR era are above the top Sith of other era's. Or that Decimus is among the best ever just for living in it. The guy who beat him did so after fighting through his entire base and beating two other Dark Council Members right before him. That doesn't exactly spell out 'Massive badass' to me.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
😕

Read this:

Led by the great commander Ajunta Pall, who still seethed at their defeat, the Dark Jedi found refuge on the distant desert world of Korriban. Here, they encountered primitive red-skinned aliens, the native Sith species. These aliens looked on the Dark Jedi's powers and technology with awe and bowed down to them as gods.

With their knowledge, and the Sith species at their command, the Dark Jedi saw the chance for a new beginning. They set about building the foundations of a civilization that would endure for thousands of years. In a decisive break from the austerity and restrictions of the Jedi Order, the Dark Jedi exploited their role as god-like beings, adopting elaborate clothing to awe their slaves, and commanding the creation of vast temples and tombs. Over the years intermarriage between the Dark Jedi and Sith species meant that eventually there was only one people on Korriban: red-skinned Force-sensitives, who called themselves Sith.

Many ideals of Sith culture were influenced by ancestral hatred of the Jedi, and lessons learned from the original exiles. The struggles of the Hundred-Year Darkness, and later harshness of life in Korriban's deserts, were crucibles in which the weak perished and the strong ascended; proving that power only comes from enduring conflict and emerging victorious.

Freed from Jed scrutiny, the Sith were able to explore their studies of the Force, harnessing their fury and discovering strange new powers. They believed that passion was the true expression of the Force.*

Sith further improved during the famed Golden Age, and even further during the phase of reconstituted Sith Empire. This is why I believe that ancient Sith reached their pinnacle with reconstituted Sith Empire.

Therefore, my argument that reconstituted Sith Empire = highest quality. Now what is so wrong about this latest canon development?

Remember how people used to underestimate Dread Masters not long ago? Recent canon development silenced such foolishness.

Yeah, I agree with you that the era was likely the pinnacle of Jedi and Sith combat. However, I will never use that as an argument for one individual to be above another or that standing out in that era means that they're superior to standouts of other eras.

Plus I wouldn't even count Decimus as a standout. 🙄

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is nicely put but I have my reasons to believe that if someone is among the standouts in the reconstituted Sith Empire, that individual is likely to be a standout in other eras as well.

Keep in mind that the Sith went in major decline after the fall of the reconstituted Sith Empire. It was Bane who eventually improved the standards of Sith once again with aid of ancient knowledge. However, this progression stopped with the fall of Sidious.

Whatever, I fail to see the relevance of that.