Jaden Korr Vs Darth Maul

Ok:

a) Sith ghosts take energy to do anything (like affect the real world, materialse etc), particularly away from their resting places, so its possible for them to diminish over time. But Kallig does say that he can replenish his strength by resting so idk.

b) I'd actually agree with Allankles in that Kun sucker-punched Nadd, which isn't as good as Korr beating up a real opponent in a fight. Especially since Ragnos had his staff. I'd also kind of question how weakened Ragnos was. I mean, the staff had drained the power of several nexus' and planets. 😖hrug:

Ragnos was a duelist, as was Tavion, they preferred to manifest their power in force of arms and I think it is fair to say that they were still getting practice at it, the two personalities in one thing. Though I believe Tavion and even Kor had contact with the Waru entity before their respective meetings with the Jedi.

Ragnos was far from his original power at the time of his resurrection, IMO.

Originally posted by Allankles
Tavion is a young dark Jedi, still growing in the force, so she has what we call "upside" with the force, basically her potential has barely been tapped really, so Ragnos filling the spaces is what happened there.[/qote]

Actually, I'd like to establish a baseline here of Tavion's relative weakness; Kun, in a similar place of darkness, aided Kyp Durron in basically dominating Luke Skywalker.

Tavion, with Ragnos' spirit in her, can't defeat Jaden Korr, who is barely a Jedi.

The idea is that either Ragnos' spirit is drastically weaker than Kun's (either due to natural atrophy versus Kun's massassi mass-drain or because he is naturally weaker than Kun, which is suspect) or Tavion is the weak link.

[quote]Kun didn't have to struggle to accomplish the feat, he just blasted the guy to kingdom come before the dude knew what hit him. It didn't give us a chance to even gauge what Nadd would have done.

Ragnos at least got some respect by seeing his vanquishing coming.

Kun didn't struggle because with the amulet and his newfound love of da Dark Side, he was more powerful. Nadd already demonstrated his strength. As it was, he had barely enough power to notify his kin back on Onderon before he faded into the Void.

Also, work totally interrupted this post so I may be behind.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kun didn't struggle because with the amulet and his newfound love of da Dark Side, he was more powerful. Nadd already demonstrated his strength. As it was, he had barely enough power to notify his kin back on Onderon before he faded into the Void.

Also, work totally interrupted this post so I may be behind.

Exactly, Kun didn't struggle, making it less impressive.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ok:

a) Sith ghosts take energy to do anything (like affect the real world, materialse etc), particularly away from their resting places, so its possible for them to diminish over time. But Kallig does say that he can replenish his strength by resting so idk.

The spirits we see in TOR are old, but not as old as spirit-Kun or spirit-Ragnos. I still think some degree of atrophy is reasonable.

b) I'd actually agree with Allankles in that Kun sucker-punched Nadd, which isn't as good as Korr beating up a real opponent in a fight. Especially since Ragnos had his staff. I'd also kind of question how weakened Ragnos was. I mean, the staff had drained the power of several nexus' and planets. 😖hrug:

The idea of Nadd being sucker punched is kind of misleading. Kun rebuffs him twice and is brandishing the amulet he just used to level the temple and decimate the massassi and that Sith wyrm.

Compare this with Nadd who earlier was able to again, heal a dying and crippled Kun from across the galaxy and attack Vodo (I've been saying Arca Jeth, whups!) across the galaxy.

Originally posted by Allankles
Exactly, Kun didn't struggle, making it less impressive.

If I push a rock casually, and someone else struggles, it is less impressive?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Actually, I'd like to establish a baseline here of Tavion's relative weakness; Kun, in a similar place of darkness, aided Kyp Durron in basically dominating Luke Skywalker.

Tavion, with Ragnos' spirit in her, can't defeat Jaden Korr, who is barely a Jedi.

The idea is that either Ragnos' spirit is drastically weaker than Kun's (either due to natural atrophy versus Kun's massassi mass-drain or because he is naturally weaker than Kun, which is suspect) or Tavion is the weak link.

It might seem so, but then again just blasting away Kor would have been less than easy, he was a bit of a slickster.

Tavion actually used the scepter to blast Kor, but Kor avoids the beam of destruction and other destructive waves,
so Kor prevailed also because he's an artful dodger, and not necessarily because he was more powerful than Tavion,
let alone Marka.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
If I push a rock casually, and someone else struggles, it is less impressive?

Nadd is unawares, in fact, he doesn't even need to betray the fully dead king of olderon. Could have redeemed him, but meh!

Originally posted by Allankles
It might seem so, but then again just blasting away Kor would have been less than easy, he was a bit of a slickster.

Tavion actually used the scepter to blast Kor, but Kor avoids the beam of destruction and other destructive waves,
so Kor prevailed also because he's an artful dodger, and not necessarily because he was more powerful than Tavion,
let alone Marka.

So Korr won by virtue of artful dodging? You mean that thing he didn't do in all those cutscenes?

Originally posted by Allankles
Nadd is unawares, in fact, he doesn't even need to betray the fully dead king of olderon. Could have redeemed him, but meh!

Kun is brimming with rage and brandishing the amulet of Nadd's former dead master and the mate of another amulet which is something of an heirloom of his family and in the keeping of Ulic at this time.

So either Nadd is stupidly unaware of the fact that Kun is suddenly a danger to him, or he was legitimately overpowered anyways. Im pretty sure the only way Nadd could have avoided the attack with prep would be to you know, manifest somewhere else.

Unless Kun with the amulet can punch spirits by virtue of flexing his arm, in which case it baffles me even more why he didn't just knock Ragnos' lights out and kill Ulic to claim the throne.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
If I push a rock casually, and someone else struggles, it is less impressive?

Is pushing a rock easily off a cliff more impressive than struggling to carry a rock up a hill?

Actually, looking at the scan again, Exar Kun closes a decent gap before punching into the manifestation. So if you can sucker punch someone from across a small room, I'm now a believer.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Is pushing a rock easily off a cliff more impressive than struggling to carry a rock up a hill?

That analogy doesn't work though. Freedan Nadd, who had previously demonstrated utter power over Kun with the Force, even away from his resting place (which we established has some effect on his powers), is suddenly weaker than Kun and just knocked out of the picture.

Jaden Korr, who was never threatened by Ragnos' spirit directly and only indirectly threatened when that spirit inhabited the again, weakling Tavion, defeats her in a pitched battle.

Kun's dominance > Korr's dominance. It's fairly evident. Look at the scans above.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Actually, looking at the scan again, Exar Kun closes a decent gap before punching into the manifestation. So if you can sucker punch someone from across a small room, I'm now a believer.

By force speed? You can. Kor is a master of force speed as well, so getting hit by a blast was not a common occurrence for him - but for a few incidents - which have been documented.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
That analogy doesn't work though. Freedan Nadd, who had previously demonstrated utter power over Kun with the Force, even away from his resting place (which we established has some effect on his powers), is suddenly weaker than Kun and just knocked out of the picture.

Jaden Korr, who was never threatened by Ragnos' spirit directly and only indirectly threatened when that spirit inhabited the again, weakling Tavion, defeats her in a pitched battle.

Kun's dominance > Korr's dominance. It's fairly evident. Look at the scans above.

Dominance isn't the end all be all when determining how to rate
anything really. Kun's propensity to want to 'dominate' made him fall to the dark side.
And also made him a sucker for dark side spirits, who in turn 'dominated' him.
So domination isn't an issue here. Kor would clearly be the weaker guy there, which makes his survival... most impressive!

Originally posted by Allankles
By force speed? You can. Kor is a master of force speed as well, so getting hit by a blast was not a common occurrence for him - but for a few incidents - which have been documented.

A sucker punch is by definition without warning or before someone is able to martial a defense. Let's examine this again.

1. Either Nadd could not defend himself because Kun was so ultra fast that the latter could sucker punch him from across the room

Or...

2. He was boned either way.

It's still more impressive than Korr's epic battle against Tavion-Ragnos, who has displayed nothing approaching that, except for what the sceptre did. Also keep in mind that Nadd was dead for less time than Ragnos, so if atrophy is a valid concept, Ragnos was much much weaker in comparison, Tavion aside.

Kun + Kyp Durron > Luke rather easily.
Ragnos + Tavion > Korr after an epic fight.

Clearly, the struggle of the latter is far more impressive, right?

Originally posted by Allankles
Dominance isn't the end all be all when determining how to rate
anything really. Kun's propensity to want to 'dominate' made him fall to the dark side.
And also made him a sucker for dark side spirits, who in turn 'dominated' him.
So domination isn't an issue here. Kor would clearly be the weaker guy there, which makes his survival... most impressive!

This is ridiculous. In an effort to establish martial superiority, or superiority in the Force, one's demonstrated ability to dominate similar or superior opponents is indicative of one's higher standing in relation to the opponent in the versus thread. Your attempt to remove this inequality because you heart Korr and admire the underdog is neither accurate nor the way we do things around here.

Therefore, I am disinclined to agree that you have a point.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
A sucker punch is by definition without warning or before someone is able to martial a defense. Let's examine this again.

1. Either Nadd could not defend himself because Kun was so ultra fast that the latter could sucker punch him from across the room

Or...

2. He was boned either way.

It's still more impressive than Korr's epic battle against Tavion-Ragnos, who has displayed nothing approaching that, except for what the sceptre did. Also keep in mind that Nadd was dead for less time than Ragnos, so if atrophy is a valid concept, Ragnos was much much weaker in comparison, Tavion aside.

Kun + Kyp Durron > Luke rather easily.
Ragnos + Tavion > Korr after an epic fight.

Clearly, the struggle of the latter is far more impressive, right?

This is ridiculous. In an effort to establish martial superiority, or superiority in the Force, one's demonstrated ability to dominate similar or superior opponents is indicative of one's higher standing in relation to the opponent in the versus thread. Your attempt to remove this inequality because you heart Korr and admire the underdog is neither accurate nor the way we do things around here.

Therefore, I am disinclined to agree that you have a point.

Nadd is trapped between worlds anyway so his respond-and-avoid a blow abilities are already compromised in a sense. He's a "dead guy" already, so his apparition not responding means he didn't expect, since he still had ambitions for Kun and the Sith.

Kun's insistence on dominating also often ensured he wouldn't last long, in any given time. He was too impatient with his power and wasted it all in big blasts.

Originally posted by Allankles
Nadd is trapped between worlds anyway so his respond-and-avoid a blow abilities are already compromised in a sense.

How? Establish this with facts or at least a coherent argument.

He's a "dead guy" already, so his apparition not responding means he didn't expect, since he still had ambitions for Kun and the Sith.

You're assuming Nadd is unaware of his own danger entirely, without any proof or coherent arguments to support it.

Kun's insistence on dominating also often ensured he wouldn't last long, in any given time. He was too impatient with his power and wasted it all in big blasts.

This is irrelevant within the context of the debate. Kun's power was sufficient enough that he was never threatened, except by the combine force of the entire Jedi Order. The entire discussion relating to the Sith spirits was to agree to how impressive was Korr's defeat of Ragnos' spirit, and so far it looks like it was not as impressive as it could be. If Korr defeated a spirit of Ragnos which was capable of doing the things Nadd could do (effect the physical world on a intergalactic way, heal Kun from death, etc.) then the feat would be comparable enough to consider. As it is, Ragnos' spirit does jack-all until it's revived, and then it takes over her body, pulls out the sword, and fights Jaden in sword combat. Then gameplay ensues, and Jaden wins. It establishes really nothing.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
How? Establish this with facts or at least a coherent argument.

Sith Spirits are trapped between their world of the dead and the sw wars physical reality when they manifest.
Or I should say, part of their minds are trapped there, unless they fully manifest physically.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You're assuming Nadd is unaware of his own danger entirely, without any proof or coherent arguments to support it.

Nadd expected danger but not at that moment, he had lived for hundreds of years and
wouldn't have imagined his new apprentice would kill him that quickly, that early in his apprenticeship.
Not that Kun should feel too aggrieved,
Nadd had it coming at that stage.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This is irrelevant within the context of the debate. Kun's power was sufficient enough that he was never threatened, except by the combine force of the entire Jedi Order. The entire discussion relating to the Sith spirits was to agree to how impressive was Korr's defeat of Ragnos' spirit, and so far it looks like it was not as impressive as it could be. If Korr defeated a spirit of Ragnos which was capable of doing the things Nadd could do (effect the physical world on a intergalactic way, heal Kun from death, etc.) then the feat would be comparable enough to consider. As it is, Ragnos' spirit does jack-all until it's revived, and then it takes over her body, pulls out the sword, and fights Jaden in sword combat. Then gameplay ensues, and Jaden wins. It establishes really nothing.

Well it actually establishes everything, it says that Ragnos valued the heart and the resolve as virtues,
since he was already a master of destruction in life.

So his fight with Kor, was to measure the heart and
resolve of the Jedi teachings of that era, and also to examine the heart of Ragnos himself, in his identity as a warrior.

Since it is by the warrior code, that Ragnos
held the throne of the Sith Empire.
So when Jaden prevailed, it was a sign that the
Sith teachings could not resolve the heart of the warrior code, never and for all time, not until they change also, like these new Jedi have changed.

Originally posted by Allankles
Sith Spirits are trapped between their world of the dead and the sw wars physical reality when they manifest.
Or I should say, part of their minds are trapped there, unless they fully manifest physically.

You still didn't establish your earlier point.

Nadd expected danger but not at that moment, he had lived for hundreds of years and
wouldn't have imagined his new apprentice would kill him that quickly, that early in his apprenticeship.

Even though he killed Sadow prior? And raised a treacherous den of Force-sensitive family members? Also, this doesn't establish anything concrete.

Well it actually establishes everything, it says that Ragnos valued the heart and the resolve as virtues,
since he was already a master of destruction in life.

...

Where are you getting this information from? Some pocket dimension inside of your rectum? This is the definition of reaching.

So his fight with Kor, was to measure the heart and
resolve of the Jedi teachings of that era, and also to examine the heart of Ragnos himself, in his identity as a warrior.

Since it is by the warrior code, that Ragnos
held the throne of the Sith Empire.
So when Jaden prevailed, it was a sign that the
Sith teachings could not resolve the heart of the warrior code, never and for all time, not until they change also, like these new Jedi have changed.

You are projecting way too much of your own personal views on this. For one, this isn't in the game. If it is, my memory has utterly failed me but a Youtube video or screen capture would be vital to make this stick.

Two, Ragnos crowned Exar Kun and said he would prevent the Sith legacy from dying out, merely because he sensed the power in the new Sith Lord. Ragnos can actively sense people's strength, as just about anyone here. He wouldn't need to battle Jaden to prove anything. Sith bushido is not a real concept.

Three, Ragnos would be greedy to live again to spread the Sith ideals and conquer the Jedi. Thus he would be eager to smackdown Jaden and get on living.