WBH VS King Thor

Originally posted by Damborgson
He'd win by enduring the necessary punishment he'd receive from a close range fight, and tear him in half with a Desak dropper. /shrug

Or blow his head off with beams far more powerful than the ones he used while he was still a noob with the Odinforce. Or point at him and blow him lightyears away. There ya go Carv 👆

KT has no feats of durability to say he can endure the necessary punishment. As a tactic of Bran I would say that we seen CA affect him. But I won't go there.

Anyway KT's feat against Desak or against the shield isn't a tenth of the power WBH endured when he collided. Think about it.

Where in my posts did I say KT doesn't have the power output to drop this version of Hulk? Me saying time stop wouldn't work doesn't mean KT doesn't have other options.

Originally posted by h1a8
KT has no feats of durability to say he can endure the necessary punishment. As a tactic of Bran I would say that we seen CA affect him. But I won't go there.

Anyway KT's feat against Desak or against the shield isn't a tenth of the power WBH endured when he collided. Think about it.

Originally posted by Damborgson
He'd win by enduring the necessary punishment he'd receive from a close range fight, and tear him in half with a Desak dropper. /shrug

Or blow his head off with beams far more powerful than the ones he used while he was still a noob with the Odinforce. Or point at him and blow him lightyears away. There ya go Carv 👆

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
That was apparently impossible for Carver to say though.

Well yeah it's probably hard enough to admit Hulk loses. Now to actually go into detail on how loses is borderline dangerous behavior for him.

Originally posted by h1a8
Think about it.

Originally posted by h1a8
I feel people are intimidated by me because my logic is very hard to refute and that in reality they are butthurt knowing the painful truth (they don't like it so they can't accept it).

Not really.

Also, how much energy is required to affect Cap's shield?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Maybe, maybe not. However, her later plan was revealed to be a half truth, not specifically if Jane was right or not.
You might not be, but that's clearly not the intent here. As well if we're harkening back to "silver age", and using statements exclusively, then Umar is equal to Dormammu who is equal to Odin. Which kind of pits her and King Thor on equal terms. Your welcome Carver.
.

I'll double check the Umar incident and get back to you...but regardless I don't believe Umar> KT. Similar in status and within the same overall ballpark as a result but I'd def give KT a win in a forum fight.

Mindless Ones don't vary in canon though (outside the Invincible one, and I think the Nova ones were changed). They are as much static as Thing is. The only thing that changes is their showings. A more apt comparison would be Rhino. They are always presented as an overwhelming force though no matter what they're up against. And speaking of throwbacks, they were repeatedly brought up to be from the Faltine Dimension in Peter Porker's Birthday (where they got smashed again, repeatedly by pretty much every hero there). Which is a throwback to when they overwhelmed the king of that dimension and Dormammu/Umar had to seal them away.

They aren't variable in strength in canon all different hulk versions but they are plot device characters and their durability and formidability in showings varies dramatically. It's why contextual evidence indicating their formidability is most relevant and applicable when trying to determine their formidability in a specific incident. Here we know that they were formidable enough in conjunction to overwhelm Umar. How other groups of them fared in other situations automatically less relevant and subservient to the immediate contextual indication of their formidability we were provided with by the writer.

Well, I don't think showings can be inferior to statements, so there's that, nor should we ignore showings in favor of a statement. Plus, after Foom initially got knocked down, he was ragestomping all over everywhere in the presence of the MOs. Also, Hulk beheaded one earlier too, mind you, it's Hulk with an axe, so that's not bad.

This has little to do with showings vs statements based evidence. This is in context vs out of context evidence when attempting to determine the specific intended level of such highly variable characters during an incident. And in this case specific contextual evidence, whether it be statement or showings, holds more weight than external evidence which speaks to the general power level of the characters as opposed to the level they were being portrayed at in that specific instance. Moreover, I think you misunderstand me in that I'm not trying to establish the power level of one individual mindless one. I'm referring to their combined formidability. Regardless of how durable each one of them on their own might have been, in totality they were powerful enough to overwhelm Umar. Now even within that comic hulk killing just one of them wouldn't really be a big deal, but killing them all.....when their numbers were so great that even Umar couldn't put them all down before dying herself? That is the impressive part because no matter how easy it was to kill one of them, it would take 2x the amount of force to kill 2, 3x the amount of force to kill 3 and an exponentially greater application of force to kill an entire army of them operating in sufficient numbers to put down Umar in her own realm.

She effortlessly tanked an attack that destroyed all of the Mindless Ones there.Unless the Mindless Ones can output more power than what was displayed there, it's a pretty big mozza ball.

Not really. She tanked an attack that was able to disintegrate the totality of the mindless ones which is something she couldn't do . The direct logical implication of that is that she did not have the ability to output the same level of force that Hulk did in that single burst prior to being killed by the mindless ones. Thats not a knock on Hulk at all and only re-enforces the writers direct comparison between Hulk and Umar. The second implication is that the army of countless mindless ones could in a sustained combined assault exceed the output of force produced by hulk ( or actually the backwash from hulks attack)in that single burst. That once again is not some logically incoherent idea and is certainly feasible given the sustained nature of their combined attack versus the singular nature of Hulks.

I agree with that reasoning, but again, you and I both know that's not what Carver is thinking when such things are brought up. And the other... being. You aren't defending say, rational fans when you say things like that.

I dont deny that....but them again I think that when it comes to Hulk in general you have extremist views on both sides. For every Carver or H1 ( who mind you isn't really a hulk fan I don't think) you have similarly vociferous anti-hulk people on the opposite side of the spectrum. I'd prefer to just take the feat for what it is irrespective of the silliness.

I think people are assuming their durability/power stacked together just because they as an army could take down Umar. You throw enough Iron Mans for example against Odin and they'd eventually win too. It doesn't mean lesser forces can't take down said army if they use a big enough shot. As well on that note, just because they as a full army could overwhelm Umar, that doesn't mean we get to ignore a large part of their "modern" history in lesser groups. Each individual doesn't suddenly get bumped up in durability or strength just because of a statement. For example, the Annihilation Wave ransacked the universe, but each "individual" was completely unimpressive. Collective effort. Back in the day a single Mindless One was one to wrote your nephew Bok Choy about. But currently they have like what, one good showing for a single Mindless One? All they are is a decent army now.

The issue isn't their durability stacking....it's that with the addition of every new mindless one Hulk needs to apply a multiplicatively greater amount of force to achieve the same result. It's true that if you send enough iron men at Odin they'd eventually win despite Odin being able to oneshot Iron man under normal circumstances. That said, Odin would not be able to utilize the same amount of force necessary to kill one Iron man, to kill the aforementioned army of them. That's because with the addition of each Iron man, the total mass that the force would be acting upon would increase and hence the force per unit mass acting on each ironman would reduce...despite them all having same durability. That's another reason why their modern history in lesser groups is not relevant here as establishing their individual formidability is not necessary. Their strength in totality in that specific incident is all that is relevant ......and that is indicated in that specific incident.

The mindless ones feat certainly adds to the impressiveness of the total
feat. It doesn't need to be embellished on either side and can stand alone for what it is....a good way for the writer to indicate Hulks power jump by using a previous foe as a reference point. It certainly doesn't establish Hulk>>KT or that mindless ones >>>KT . On the other hand it isn't nothing and certainly reinforces the huge powerup that took place in HOTM.

Originally posted by Naija boy
I'll double check the Umar incident and get back to you...but regardless I don't believe Umar> KT. Similar in status and within the same overall ballpark as a result but I'd def give KT a win in a forum fight.

However, her actual showings lack to say the least. And I'd go so far to say King Thor would nigh annihilate her in an actual fight either in comics, or on the forum.

Originally posted by Naija boy
They aren't variable in strength in canon all different hulk versions but they are plot device characters and their durability and formidability in showings varies dramatically. It's why contextual evidence indicating their formidability is most relevant and applicable when trying to determine their formidability in a specific incident. Here we know that they were formidable enough in conjunction to overwhelm Umar. How other groups of them fared in other situations automatically less relevant and subservient to the immediate contextual indication of their formidability we were provided with by the writer.

And them being formidable in that amount of numbers doesn't override lesser showings either considering it goes against nothing at all. Maybe if their durability was spoken highly off, maybe if their strength was spoken highly of, but no, it was just a broad statement about Umar vs that many of them.

Originally posted by Naija boy
This has little to do with showings vs statements based evidence. This is in context vs out of context evidence when attempting to determine the specific intended level of such highly variable characters during an incident. And in this case specific contextual evidence, whether it be statement or showings, holds more weight than external evidence which speaks to the general power level of the characters as opposed to the level they were being portrayed at in that specific instance. Moreover, I think you misunderstand me in that I'm not trying to establish the power level of one individual mindless one. I'm referring to their combined formidability. Regardless of how durable each one of them on their own might have been, in totality they were powerful enough to overwhelm Umar. Now even within that comic hulk killing just one of them wouldn't really be a big deal, but killing them all.....when their numbers were so great that even Umar couldn't put them all down before dying herself? That is the impressive part because no matter how easy it was to kill one of them, it would take 2x the amount of force to kill 2, 3x the amount of force to kill 3 and an exponentially greater application of force to kill an entire army of them operating in sufficient numbers to put down Umar in her own realm.

That's what you yourself are saying, yes, but if you're saying that, that against wouldn't allow us to disregard previous showings. It would only mean that farther explanation is needed.

Also, 1000 times Thing's punches 😖hifty:

Originally posted by Naija boy
Not really. She tanked an attack that was able to disintegrate the totality of the mindless ones which is something she couldn't do . The direct logical implication of that is that she did not have the ability to output the same level of force that Hulk did in that single burst prior to being killed by the mindless ones. Thats not a knock on Hulk at all and only re-enforces the writers direct comparison between Hulk and Umar. The second implication is that the army of countless mindless ones could in a sustained combined assault exceed the output of force produced by hulk ( or actually the backwash from hulks attack)in that single burst. That once again is not some logically incoherent idea and is certainly feasible given the sustained nature of their combined attack versus the singular nature of Hulks.

And when specifically talking about "surviving", those shields seem quite relevant. It'd take them awhile to say the least to get through that.

Her casually tanking an attack that wipes out the whole race seems pretty meh when contrasting the two to say the least. Especially when she presumably also tanked the ensuing batte too. Just seems a little odd to throw in there.

Originally posted by Naija boy
I dont deny that....but them again I think that when it comes to Hulk in general you have extremist views on both sides. For every Carver or H1 ( who mind you isn't really a hulk fan I don't think) you have similarly vociferous anti-hulk people on the opposite side of the spectrum. I'd prefer to just take the feat for what it is irrespective of the silliness.

Originally posted by Naija boy
The issue isn't their durability stacking....it's that with the addition of every new mindless one Hulk needs to apply a multiplicatively greater amount of force to achieve the same result. It's true that if you send enough iron men at Odin they'd eventually win despite Odin being able to oneshot Iron man under normal circumstances. That said, Odin would not be able to utilize the same amount of force necessary to kill one Iron man, to kill the aforementioned army of them. That's because with the addition of each Iron man, the total mass that the force would be acting upon would increase and hence the force per unit mass acting on each ironman would reduce...despite them all having same durability. That's another reason why their modern history in lesser groups is not relevant here as establishing their individual formidability is not necessary. Their strength in totality in that specific incident is all that is relevant ......and that is indicated in that specific incident.

The mindless ones feat certainly adds to the impressiveness of the total
feat. It doesn't need to be embellished on either side and can stand alone for what it is....a good way for the writer to indicate Hulks power jump by using a previous foe as a reference point. It certainly doesn't establish Hulk>>KT or that mindless ones >>>KT . On the other hand it isn't nothing and certainly reinforces the huge powerup that took place in HOTM.

Honestly, no matter how much Mindless Ones there were, and I hate to say it, but I think destroying the planet is more impressive. However, even with thinking they were canon fodder, I do think it was impressive (not on the level some are pegging it as however) And I truly think the feat needs to be looked at as a whole instead of specific instances with questionable characters who are known to job.

For instance, I don't think destroying a Mindless One army puts him anywhere near King Thor. Like, I don't believe it's even worthy of being brought up considering what a joke they are... even contextually. However, you add in the Arm feat, the planet, the Foom, and the two Savage Hulks in Wendigo and Bi Beast... and it being a shockwave from a punch, and you have an interesting conundrum with where to place him in regards to some characters. I think this fight is honestly a lot closer than some would care to think on both sides. I don't have a problem with anything thinking one side wins, I have a problem with the Mindless Ones (mostly) being brought up to change the tide, or to bring forth some question out of it.
Call it nitpicking if you will, but I have a gripe about that feat specifically, not so much the feat as a whole since I can't deny the impressiveness of it.

Odin rapes WBH though.

Previous showings can be ignored when arguing the level of a character in a specific instance. But they can't be ignored when arguing the general level of a character.

So if Spider-Man was operating as a class 100 in a particular comic then how can you say that he wasn't because he doesn't generally operate that high?

Oh and the Odin that fought Thanos would get killed against WBH

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
But that's the issue with exclusively using all sorts of ABC logic with statements to come to a conclusion. You can conceivably put her above King Thor using statements. And the people using that feat exclusively are using it in those terms. WBH > Skyfather = King Thor.

However, her actual showings lack to say the least. And I'd go so far to say King Thor would nigh annihilate her in an actual fight either in comics, or on the forum.

The scenarios are not interchangeable though. In the case of Umar we are talking about the character across the totality of her career versus KT across the totality of his career. In that scenario everything comes into play and using an exclusive statement in one comic to reference her over her entire career would have very weak explanatory power as other evidence exists contradicting that. With the mindless ones we are talking about how they are portrayed within a specific incident....knowing fully well that their power levels varys from incident to incident.

Which creates a problem when you're using that as a baseline for your argument. Why does this showing suddenly matter for them when all they do is have a statement to their name and they get annihilated? It's pretty beastly cherry picking. Also, in terms of showings, they are never "weaker" canonically. They operate on a Rhino wavelength. And them being formidable in that amount of numbers doesn't override lesser showings either considering it goes against nothing at all. Maybe if their durability was spoken highly off, maybe if their strength was spoken highly of, but no, it was just a broad statement about Umar vs that many of them.

This showing matters for them in relation to their power level in that specific showing. The statement given was their only indication of power level in that showing to go on. It's not cherry picking, it's taking the author at face value and utilizing the most relevant evidence available. The mindless ones have both lesser and greater showings under previous writers and in different scenarios. If we ignore the contextual evidence presented in the comic by the writer in favor of previous showings, there is no way of determining which previous showings should count more or why those showings should be more important than what Pak, the writer of the comic in question intended to indicate. Even if there previous showings have been overwhelmingly bad, there is absolutely no justification for superimposing those bad showings instead of the few good ones, as even having a preponderance of prior negative showings under different writers does not make those showings any more relevant to Paks specific intention, than the few prior good showings. If this was simply an attempt to gauge the mindless ones formidability as a whole then the totality of their careers would be fair game but since all that's relevant is Paks intently placement of them in that comic, the evidence in that comic is what's relevant. If this principle is not followed we would have to continuously disregard context specific indicators that show characters operating at levels divergent from their general history all because....they haven't operated at those levels consistently. That kind of reasoning is circular

But that "contextual" evidence in no way invalidates previous showings... like at all. They are ALWAYS an overwhelming force, and are always presented as something that will eventually overcome. Just like they were in HOTM. However, they have like no showings in that scene, so I fail to see how we can simply overrule previous showings, again based on a statement. It doesn't add up. That's what you yourself are saying, yes, but if you're saying that, that against wouldn't allow us to disregard previous showings. It would only mean that farther explanation is needed.

Ok I think we are nearly on the same page here. The issue isn't about whether previous showings get invalidated but rather what is most relevant. So for instance taking into account the fact that the mindless ones are always an overwhelming force, the contextual evidence available while being the most relevant would only serve to re-enforce the fact that the mindless ones in such numbers are once again an overwhelming force. If it did go against previous showings it would still be most relevant and previous showings would still have no bearing as all we would do is call it a high showing for extremely variable characters. In this case however lets say it doesn't, then there should be no problem in you accepting that due to the mindless ones numbers they were powerful enough in conjunction to overwhelm Umar. That alone is all is necessary to make Hulk destroying all of them extremely impressive based on the fact that to due so, he would have to apply the necessary force per unit mass to destroy one x how ever many of them were necessary to overwhelm Umar in her own realm. That is impressive whichever way you look at it.

I realize that's the implication given, but again, how are they supposed to overwhelm that shield? That type of force seems above what some mindless drones are capable of (especially when it also destroys the planet). As well as her casually restoring the shield between realms. And when specifically talking about "surviving", those shields seem quite relevant. It'd take them awhile to say the least to get through that. Her casually tanking an attack that wipes out the whole race seems pretty meh when contrasting the two to say the least. Especially when she presumably also tanked the ensuing batte too. Just seems a little odd to throw in there.

Well I presume they could overwhelm the shield if given enough time and due to their overwhelming numbers. Similarly if all the mindless ones were to punch the ground or focus their effort on destroying the planet in a sustained attack, given their numbers I'd think they could accomplish that as well.

Nonetheless I think the real implication here is that their numbers were astonishingly overwhelming which itself has good implications for Hulk annihilation of their race.

Here's a thought, but let's say destroying Arm is the absolute limit of his power. OK, now that force would undoubtedly shred your Mindless One in a tiny blast. But if you apply that same force and spread it over an entire planet, how much force would be lost in such a rather small area (in comparison) as the area the critters were contained in? It was an all encompassing blast capable of destroying a planet. Not much force is going to dissipate in the area they were in. They were the equivalent of ground zero in that attack. I could see if they were all lined up in a row, and it was a handblast, but it was a potent "nuke" for lack of a better term. It's not all focused, it just went everywhere. If it could have just destroyed one Mindless One barely on one side of the blast, it would have also just barely destroyed a Mindless One on the other side. Though that brings questions of how much force exactly would be contained within a focused blast instead of one that goes everywhere, but that's not what we're discussing. Mind you I don't necessarily disagree with it possibly being a couple thousand notches above what it takes to destroy a single one considering what it takes to destroy a single one nowadays. The rest of his feat helps prove that, but I don't agree with what you're saying in that instance to reach that conclusion. Honestly, no matter how much Mindless Ones there were, and I hate to say it, but I think destroying the planet is more impressive. However, even with thinking they were canon fodder, I do think it was impressive (not on the level some are pegging it as however) And I truly think the feat needs to be looked at as a whole instead of specific instances with questionable characters who are known to job. For instance, I don't think destroying a Mindless One army puts him anywhere near King Thor. Like, I don't believe it's even worthy of being brought up considering what a joke they are... even contextually. However, you add in the Arm feat, the planet, the Foom, and the two Savage Hulks in Wendigo and Bi Beast... and it being a shockwave from a punch, and you have an interesting conundrum with where to place him in regards to some characters. I think this fight is honestly a lot closer than some would care to think on both sides. I don't have a problem with anything thinking one side wins, I have a problem with the Mindless Ones (mostly) being brought up to change the tide, or to bring forth some question out of it. Call it nitpicking if you will, but I have a gripe about that feat specifically, not so much the feat as a whole since I can't deny the impressiveness of it. Odin rapes WBH though.

The thing is that it's not the area of the blast that is of main focus...but rather the number of units of mass that the force is acting on. So while we don't know the exact area the force was acting on, we do know that it was acting on an incomparably large number of mindless ones. In destroying them all the total force would continuously become less and less the more mindless ones it acted on regardless of how wide the area was. So let's say that like in your example the blast was contained within a specific are with one mindless one on one side and another on the other side, of you then placed a thousand mindless ones in between them, the amount of force acting on the mindless one at the further end would have reduced dramatically from the initial scenario. The fact that it wasnt a focused blast is actually an additional feather in Hulks cap as the width of the area would also cause some dissipation which means that an even smaller amount of the residual force from his clash with Betty annihilated all the mindless ones. As I said at minimum Hulk would need to have applied the force needed to destroy one mindless one x the amount of those mindless ones needed to overwhelm Umar as head of her own realm. The level each individual one was at is indeterminable but quite frankly irrelevant

This is where the Umar comparison comes into play as we know specifically that this is something Umar could not do in that instance. Moreover as you have even mentioned, historically this is also something she and her brother have been similarly unable to do. Individually yes they have been jokes at times but even you have acknowledged that in their fullness they have always been an overwhelming force. The writer helped us confirm that that was his intention in this scenario as well....and it is that fact which makes that part of the feat impressive.

When you then add in the rest of it (residual shockwave, arm, bi beast, amped foom, Wendigo, planet etc) ....it takes the feat to the pinnacle of impressiveness in terms of direct character comparison feats.

Odin does annihilate WBH for multiple reasons. No argument there.

In this fight, KT has easy ways to win as well. However if he gets physical and turns this into a straight up fight for too long then he is playing into WBH hands.

Originally posted by carver9
Where in my posts did I say KT doesn't have the power output to drop this version of Hulk? Me saying time stop wouldn't work doesn't mean KT doesn't have other options.

And this is like the 4th or 5th time this has been pointed out to you. 👇

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Umar got her shit knocked out by Thor...

Or are you referring to another instance?

KT rapes Hulk

Originally posted by the Darkone
KT rapes Hulk

Originally posted by h1a8
As a tactic of Bran I would say that we seen CA affect him. But I won't go there.

If you want to emulate Bran's debating tactics, at least do it the right way, in the smart manner which he does.

As such, this is just another instance of your horrible lowballing which easily tells us that you've never even seen, smelled or touched a single comic in your life.

Naija boy wins. FATALITY.

Originally posted by Epicurus
WTF? His son was held as a hostage in that situation. Not to mention that in the previous pages, Thor killed both the Hulk and the Thing with his bare hands, despite being deprived of the Odinpower.

If you want to emulate Bran's debating tactics, at least do it the right way, in the smart manner which he does.

As such, this is just another instance of your horrible lowballing which easily tells us that you've never even seen, smelled or touched a single comic in your life.

I don't lowball. I'm not employing that argument at all. To me it's PIS and unusable. I'm just telling others how bran debates sometimes. Nothing more

But it is moot since KT has no feats of power output BEYOND that of the collision that Hulk survived. Also he has no feats of durability BEYOND the level of power that Hulk showed in that arc. Titles don't save you, feats do.