WBH VS King Thor

Originally posted by Naija boy
The scenarios are not interchangeable though. In the case of Umar we are talking about the character across the totality of her career versus KT across the totality of his career. In that scenario everything comes into play and using an exclusive statement in one comic to reference her over her entire career would have very weak explanatory power as other evidence exists contradicting that. With the mindless ones we are talking about how they are portrayed within a specific incident....knowing fully well that their power levels varys from incident to incident.

And using her as a whole she barely registers as a blip on King Thor's radar. Which indicates there are no feats being discussed when we act like Umar is in King Thor's range (also evidenced by none of her feats being brought up)
Which means it's exactly the same issue being discussed in this thread.

Originally posted by Naija boy
This showing matters for them in relation to their power level in that specific showing. The statement given was their only indication of power level in that showing to go on. It's not cherry picking, it's taking the author at face value and utilizing the most relevant evidence available. The mindless ones have both lesser and greater showings under previous writers and in different scenarios. If we ignore the contextual evidence presented in the comic by the writer in favor of previous showings, there is no way of determining which previous showings should count more or why those showings should be more important than what Pak, the writer of the comic in question intended to indicate. Even if there previous showings have been overwhelmingly bad, there is absolutely no justification for superimposing those bad showings instead of the few good ones, as even having a preponderance of prior negative showings under different writers does not make those showings any more relevant to Paks specific intention, than the few prior good showings. If this was simply an attempt to gauge the mindless ones formidability as a whole then the totality of their careers would be fair game but since all that's relevant is Paks intently placement of them in that comic, the evidence in that comic is what's relevant. If this principle is not followed we would have to continuously disregard context specific indicators that show characters operating at levels divergent from their general history all because....they haven't operated at those levels consistently. That kind of reasoning is circular

What did they do to go against their previous "low showings" in that the HOTM arc? Absolutely nothing. It'd be different (again) if they were stated to be nearly invincible, or terrifically strong, but that was not the statement we are judging it on. All it is speaking of their numbers. That's it. It has nothing to do with individual powers (as you yourself have said), and if it has nothing to do with individual power of them, then why exactly would it overrule anything at all?

Contextual evidence is alright at times. But contextual evidence in this case amounts to nothing. They did nothing to show their power. They did nothing to show their previous durability feats are to be ignored. They have a statement to their name. Writer's intention does not add up to a completely new slate of a character, especially in this case.

All they pretty much did was get destroyed... as an entire race. If anything that follows the modern history of the Mindless Ones to a tee, on a higher level. It does not exactly go against them being destroyed by lesser forces...

And as an aside, the statement is on par with "most dangerous army in the universe". 😛

Originally posted by Naija boy
Ok I think we are nearly on the same page here. The issue isn't about whether previous showings get invalidated but rather what is most relevant. So for instance taking into account the fact that the mindless ones are always an overwhelming force, the contextual evidence available while being the most relevant would only serve to re-enforce the fact that the mindless ones in such numbers are once again an overwhelming force. If it did go against previous showings it would still be most relevant and previous showings would still have no bearing as all we would do is call it a high showing for extremely variable characters. In this case however lets say it doesn't, then there should be no problem in you accepting that due to the mindless ones numbers they were powerful enough in conjunction to overwhelm Umar. That alone is all is necessary to make Hulk destroying all of them extremely impressive based on the fact that to due so, he would have to apply the necessary force per unit mass to destroy one x how ever many of them were necessary to overwhelm Umar in her own realm. That is impressive whichever way you look at it.

We're not too far away, but still far enough.

It doesn't go against any previous showings though as them being an overwhelming force. Even when Thing was tearing through them, they needed to BFR all of them since there was too many (also Dormammu threat imminent). And in their most recent showing (Bendis), they were overwhelming the X-Men, while Cyclops with some exertion was able to shred individual Mindless Ones. Even in these "low showings" which we're saying is completely ruled out, they are still perceived as being too many of them

Oh, I have no issue saying it's impressive because of the number of them. I've never pretended to say that. I just have a problem with suggesting that every previous showing of theirs (though I know we'd love to take their first couple years of showings into effect) are null and void just because of a single statement that doesn't actually back up previous showings being null and void.

If you want to say it's impressive because it's a lot of them, even with their questionable durability, then bingo. Welcome to Bran's house of waffles. You can say that you know, it's impressive to kill a lot of canon fodder without trying to paint each individual as some sort of uber impressive character.

Though tbh, as much as I hate to say it, but a planet destroying attack is probably above destroying that army by a sizable degree. Though that brings issues of Umar's power in that arc (if you want to look at it so strictly black and white), but the best possible answer isn't that she'd be holding back, it'd be that she wouldn't release a massive omniblast on her planet capable of wrecking shit up. It'd be more of a "1 on 1" fight if you will with her judging by circumstances. Which would also likely drain her as well in the ensuing battle.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Well I presume they could overwhelm the shield if given enough time and due to their overwhelming numbers. Similarly if all the mindless ones were to punch the ground or focus their effort on destroying the planet in a sustained attack, given their numbers I'd think they could accomplish that as well.

Nonetheless I think the real implication here is that their numbers were astonishingly overwhelming which itself has good implications for Hulk annihilation of their race.

Still though, that's quite the shield to overwhelm. It'd have to take quite a while, which would have to be the underlying notion with such showings in the same issue. They don't exactly contrast favorably, and you pretty much have to make your own take on why it makes sense.

Though that's quite the focused effort in your scenario to destroy the planet, if they could. What we have to realize though is that Umar is comparably tiny, and you couldn't possibly have that many Mindless Ones punching or blasting her at the same time.

I realize. Even if he destroyed an army of Spider-Man level people, it'd be impressive, but that doesn't mean it's the most impressive thing about that, nor does it mean much against some possibly millions of times more durable (talking about King Thor vs Mindless Ones btw).

Which brings about a question. If he destroyed an army of Spider-Men that was enough to overwhelm Umar, in much the same way... but at the same time destroyed something durable enough to take shots from tamed WBH. Which part of that feat should we only be looking at?

And another question about me previously saying something about stacking durability. But do you think the same shockwave would have destroyed a Mindless One a thousand times more durable than a single one based on him destroying a thousand Mindless Ones?

Originally posted by Naija boy
The thing is that it's not the area of the blast that is of main focus...but rather the number of units of mass that the force is acting on. So while we don't know the exact area the force was acting on, we do know that it was acting on an incomparably large number of mindless ones. In destroying them all the total force would continuously become less and less the more mindless ones it acted on regardless of how wide the area was. So let's say that like in your example the blast was contained within a specific are with one mindless one on one side and another on the other side, of you then placed a thousand mindless ones in between them, the amount of force acting on the mindless one at the further end would have reduced dramatically from the initial scenario. The fact that it wasnt a focused blast is actually an additional feather in Hulks cap as the width of the area would also cause some dissipation which means that an even smaller amount of the residual force from his clash with Betty annihilated all the mindless ones. As I said at minimum Hulk would need to have applied the force needed to destroy one mindless one x the amount of those mindless ones needed to overwhelm Umar as head of her own realm. The level each individual one was at is indeterminable but quite frankly irrelevant

This is where the Umar comparison comes into play as we know specifically that this is something Umar could not do in that instance. Moreover as you have even mentioned, historically this is also something she and her brother have been similarly unable to do. Individually yes they have been jokes at times but even you have acknowledged that in their fullness they have always been an overwhelming force. The writer helped us confirm that that was his intention in this scenario as well....and it is that fact which makes that part of the feat impressive.

When you then add in the rest of it (residual shockwave, arm, bi beast, amped foom, Wendigo, planet etc) ....it takes the feat to the pinnacle of impressiveness in terms of direct character comparison feats.

Odin does annihilate WBH for multiple reasons. No argument there.

In this fight, KT has easy ways to win as well. However if he gets physical and turns this into a straight up fight for too long then he is playing into WBH hands.

They could be lined up like you said, with a thousand behind each one. They could be lined up in a huge line (where none of the energy dissipates), they could be a mix of each. They could be standing on each others shoulders. All I know is that not every single one, or maybe even half had to have gotten hit with dissipated energy. Though again, I have no problem if that was the case, but it just doesn't work with multiplying the force times the amount of Mindless Ones there. If there were two thousand, it isn't logical to assume that it was 2 thousand times more powerful than the force needed to destroy a single one. The most likely explanation is that what you're saying is true, however to a far lesser degree considering how scattered about they'd be.
Also, the omniblast being from somewhat above helps the energy not having to go through as many at a time.

I realize it's more impressive as it being an omniblast, and it being a shockwave from an attack. That still doesn't mean the actual shockwave gets a boost in damage.

But even using your logic, the Mindless Ones' durability is still a factor since it either becomes Hulk level times a million, or less than Thing level times a million.

I'm pretty sure the 60/70's Mindless Ones have been extinct for a while. Otherwise it's a slippery slope since you could conceivably put Dormammu/Umar together under the Hulk... 's shockwave. But yes, they are always an overwhelming force. That still doesn't make them uber durable.

And that's my entire point. You have to add in the rest of the feat. Because destroying the Mindless Ones isn't the feat to put him against King Thor IMO. If he would have only destroyed the Mindless Ones, I would have laughed at anyone using that feat on the forum against beings of this level tbh.
They were merely the canon fodder aspect of the feat to show how far it reached IMO (though it was still impressive, just not AS impressive as being made out to be). However, the planet destroying illustrates that point even better... and destroying Ched as easily as he did illustrates the power of it even better as well. The Umar statement doesn't even need to be brought up like at all to show the actual impressiveness, you just have to look at the feat as a whole, as opposed to cut certain sections and using ABC logic to attain a level of understanding.

I realize. Though I don't think it's as cut and dry as you make it seem. I think it's a good fight either way.

Originally posted by Epicurus
IIRC, it was later on revealed that she was faking it to give Dormammu the edge in his chess match with Odin or something.

Or are you referring to another instance?

I just remember Jane saying it, but Umar never confirming it.

Originally posted by h1a8
CA affected KT with the Odin force. Do you hear me?

Originally posted by h1a8
I don't lowball.

Originally posted by h1a8
But it is moot since KT has no feats of power output BEYOND that of the collision that Hulk survived. Also he has no feats of durability BEYOND the level of power that Hulk showed in that arc. Titles don't save you, feats do.

Thor on his lonesome has cracked apart worlds lightyears away during his slugfest with Gor. Without the power-up that the Odinforce would impart upon him.

Forget King Thor, regular Thor could take the fight to this incarnation of Hulk and then some.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Someone scan me then. I'm going off like 5 years memory on this one.

I just remember Jane saying it, but Umar never confirming it.

Hold on for a while. I'll e-sniff out the scans.

Originally posted by Epicurus
No, I don't hear you. Not when you so blatantly ignore an important bit of context like his son being held hostage or an OFless Thor killing the Hulk and Ben Grimm in the very same instance.

You do, and you suck at it. Just like you suck at reading comics in general.

😂

Thor on his lonesome has cracked apart worlds lightyears away during his slugfest with Gor. Without the power-up that the Odinforce would impart upon him.

Forget King Thor, regular Thor could take the fight to this incarnation of Hulk and then some.

Thor used a magical hammer plot device, not his pure strength. Also cracking a small portion of a world is nothing compared to COMPLETELY destroying a planet along with destroying disintegrating thousands of mindless ones and Hulk peers. That's an astronomical difference.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
And using her as a whole she barely registers as a blip on King Thor's radar. Which indicates there are no feats being discussed when we act like Umar is in King Thor's range (also evidenced by none of her feats being brought up)
Which means it's exactly the same issue being discussed in this thread.

And like I've said before, a statement without any showing cannot possibly hope to erase previous showings and put them basically in a "new character" range. I cannot, and will not agree with that, regardless of what happens

What did they do to go against their previous "low showings" in that the HOTM arc? Absolutely nothing. It'd be different (again) if they were stated to be nearly invincible, or terrifically strong, but that was not the statement we are judging it on. All it is speaking of their numbers. That's it. It has nothing to do with individual powers (as you yourself have said), and if it has nothing to do with individual power of them, then why exactly would it overrule anything at all?

Contextual evidence is alright at times. But contextual evidence in this case amounts to nothing. They did nothing to show their power. They did nothing to show their previous durability feats are to be ignored. They have a statement to their name. Writer's intention does not add up to a completely new slate of a character, especially in this case.

All they pretty much did was get destroyed... as an entire race. If anything that follows the modern history of the Mindless Ones to a tee, on a higher level. It does not exactly go against them being destroyed by lesser forces...

And as an aside, the statement is on par with "most dangerous army in the universe". 😛

We're not too far away, but still far enough.

It doesn't go against any previous showings though as them being an overwhelming force. Even when Thing was tearing through them, they needed to BFR all of them since there was too many (also Dormammu threat imminent). And in their most recent showing (Bendis), they were overwhelming the X-Men, while Cyclops with some exertion was able to shred individual Mindless Ones. Even in these "low showings" which we're saying is completely ruled out, they are still perceived as being too many of them

Oh, I have no issue saying it's impressive because of the number of them. I've never pretended to say that. I just have a problem with suggesting that every previous showing of theirs (though I know we'd love to take their first couple years of showings into effect) are null and void just because of a single statement that doesn't actually back up previous showings being null and void.

If you want to say it's impressive because it's a lot of them, even with their questionable durability, then bingo. Welcome to Bran's house of waffles. You can say that you know, it's impressive to kill a lot of canon fodder without trying to paint each individual as some sort of uber impressive character.

Though tbh, as much as I hate to say it, but a planet destroying attack is probably above destroying that army by a sizable degree. Though that brings issues of Umar's power in that arc (if you want to look at it so strictly black and white), but the best possible answer isn't that she'd be holding back, it'd be that she wouldn't release a massive omniblast on her planet capable of wrecking shit up. It'd be more of a "1 on 1" fight if you will with her judging by circumstances. Which would also likely drain her as well in the ensuing battle.

I think I've covered my take somewhat to what I think the battle would be.

Still though, that's quite the shield to overwhelm. It'd have to take quite a while, which would have to be the underlying notion with such showings in the same issue. They don't exactly contrast favorably, and you pretty much have to make your own take on why it makes sense.

Though that's quite the focused effort in your scenario to destroy the planet, if they could. What we have to realize though is that Umar is comparably tiny, and you couldn't possibly have that many Mindless Ones punching or blasting her at the same time.

I realize. Even if he destroyed an army of Spider-Man level people, it'd be impressive, but that doesn't mean it's the most impressive thing about that, nor does it mean much against some possibly millions of times more durable (talking about King Thor vs Mindless Ones btw).

Which brings about a question. If he destroyed an army of Spider-Men that was enough to overwhelm Umar, in much the same way... but at the same time destroyed something durable enough to take shots from tamed WBH. Which part of that feat should we only be looking at?

And another question about me previously saying something about stacking durability. But do you think the same shockwave would have destroyed a Mindless One a thousand times more durable than a single one based on him destroying a thousand Mindless Ones?

Statements can erase a character's low or high showings if that character has had the opposite showings. Mindless HAS HAD very high showings and thus the reason why there power level is variable. Thus the context is very important for us to determine which power level they were operating at in a given circumstance. I can see if they had ALL low showings and no high ones that support the statement or writer's intention. But that's not the case.

With that said, force must be multiplied linearly in order to destroy multiple beings.
It takes 2x more force to destroy 2 beings than destroying 1 being and so forth. Destroying the totality of the race when it was claim they were enough to overwhelm Umar and kill her speaks of their power (or numbers if you disagree on their power). That means if you think they were weak then Hulk killed millions if not billions or trillions of them.

And it's ridiculous to say baseless things like Umar wouldn't register a blip on KT's radar. As far as I'm concerned we go by feats here to form a basis. KT has no feats to form this basis. She casually is able to summon a score of planets worth of force (casually implies a small portion of her power). Her forcefield was powerful enough to shield her from Hulk's attack. KT has no feats of power output beyond a score planets of force. He doesn't get Odin's feats since we know it takes the know how to use a power.

KT's best feats of power output was destroying Cap's shield and using a plot device weapon to destroy Desak in the Destroyer.

Neither of these feats are beyond a score of planets in power. If you disagree then kindly show feats of durability that puts Cap's shield and Destroyer's armor along with Desak's durability over resisting scores of planetary force or more. I will happily concede then.

Have a question for the abstract genious. When Umar assisted in taking out eternity (her and Dormammu)...was she amped? She has always been formidable...to the point that she can challenge Dorm while having the flame but, defeating Eternity is one of her greatest fts.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
And using her as a whole she barely registers as a blip on King Thor's radar. Which indicates there are no feats being discussed when we act like Umar is in King Thor's range (also evidenced by none of her feats being brought up)
Which means it's exactly the same issue being discussed in this thread.

Not sure I follow this. Yes Umar doesn't have the feats catalogue of KT. For the most part neither do a bunch of supposedly skyfather level characters. But that was never the comparison I was making as it isn't analogous to the mindless ones situation in which we are attempting to figure out their intended power level as a group in a specific comic as opposed to across the totality of their history.

And like I've said before, a statement without any showing cannot possibly hope to erase previous showings and put them basically in a "new character" range. I cannot, and will not agree with that, regardless of what happens What did they do to go against their previous "low showings" in that the HOTM arc? Absolutely nothing. It'd be different (again) if they were stated to be nearly invincible, or terrifically strong, but that was not the statement we are judging it on. All it is speaking of their numbers. That's it. It has nothing to do with individual powers (as you yourself have said), and if it has nothing to do with individual power of them, then why exactly would it overrule anything at all? Contextual evidence is alright at times. But contextual evidence in this case amounts to nothing. They did nothing to show their power. They did nothing to show their previous durability feats are to be ignored. They have a statement to their name. Writer's intention does not add up to a completely new slate of a character, especially in this case. All they pretty much did was get destroyed... as an entire race. If anything that follows the modern history of the Mindless Ones to a tee, on a higher level. It does not exactly go against them being destroyed by lesser forces...

And I honestly cannot agree with valuing previous extraneous showings more than the contextual in comic evidence when attempting to determine the specific intended power level of a character in a particular comic. It devalues writer intent as it gives us the ability to simply disregard whatever means the writer used to communicate that intent despite its far greater relevancy, simply because it isn't the kind of evidence we like or because the characters haven't operated at that level consistently before. In principle that opens the door for all manner of whimisical and circular reasoning.

Mind you actually, in this case I don't think the above is actually what's going on. As you have pointed out....the mindless ones portrayal as a group ( which is all I ever referenced) in HOTM didn't really contradict any of their previous individual showings anyhow and is fairly consistent with their previous portrayals as an extremely overwhelming force in large numbers. My point was never about their individual strength but rather the overwhelming nature of the totality of their force and how destroying all of them when Umar couldn't even come close was particularly impressive. The inevitably overwhelming nature of their force in sufficient numbers is something that has been consistent irrespective of their vastly fluctuating individual levels. So on this we should actually be on the same page.

It doesn't go against any previous showings though as them being an overwhelming force. Even when Thing was tearing through them, they needed to BFR all of them since there was too many (also Dormammu threat imminent). And in their most recent showing (Bendis), they were overwhelming the X-Men, while Cyclops with some exertion was able to shred individual Mindless Ones. Even in these "low showings" which we're saying is completely ruled out, they are still perceived as being too many of them Oh, I have no issue saying it's impressive because of the number of them. I've never pretended to say that. I just have a problem with suggesting that every previous showing of theirs (though I know we'd love to take their first couple years of showings into effect) are null and void just because of a single statement that doesn't actually back up previous showings being null and void. If you want to say it's impressive because it's a lot of them, even with their questionable durability, then bingo. Welcome to Bran's house of waffles. You can say that you know, it's impressive to kill a lot of canon fodder without trying to paint each individual as some sort of uber impressive character. Though tbh, as much as I hate to say it, but a planet destroying attack is probably above destroying that army by a sizable degree. Though that brings issues of Umar's power in that arc (if you want to look at it so strictly black and white), but the best possible answer isn't that she'd be holding back, it'd be that she wouldn't release a massive omniblast on her planet capable of wrecking shit up. It'd be more of a "1 on 1" fight if you will with her judging by circumstances. Which would also likely drain her as well in the ensuing battle.

Ok so initially I thought that you were arguing against the claim the the mindless ones in totality were an extremely powerful force by referencing their previous lesser showings both individually and in smaller groups. My counterclaim therefore brought up the contextual evidence that in this scenario previous showings were of no relevance as the writer specifically mentioned how the totality of their force this time was enough to overwhelm Umar in her own realm. Hence the claim contextual evidence in this case holds far more weight and relevance to this specific incident than extraneous showings. However what I now understand you to be saying is that the statement HOTM doesn't contradict previous showings at all as they have always been overwhelming forces. I actually agree wholeheartedly with this as the whole point of my claim from the get go was that it was impressive because it was the totality of the mindless ones....not because I assigned some individual durability level to each of them. There individual durability level in that instance is indeterminable but not even pertinent to my argument.

And no I don't think a planet destroying attack is above that at all....specifically because we know that Umar in her own realm did not have the output to destroy them. Furthermore, as you said this does not even contradict anything in their history as in their fullness both Umar and Dormammu have been unable to completely annihilate them in the same vein Hulk did. Since we are getting into hypotheticals, I am positive this was more due to inability than due to the inconvenience ( the mindless ones dimension is annexed to but separated omthe Dark Dimension and full of nothing but mindless beasts if she could...Umar would have just popped over there and disintegrated them all with there being little danger or damage to the rest of her realm). Even in the circumstances she was in when they got released, she wouldn't have had to release a blast that's encompassed the whole planet as the mindless ones as far as we knew only occupied a portion and hadn't spread across the entire planet yet...not to mention that on a planet which Umar admitted had no innocents and was full of damned souls I highly doubt Umar would care about having to whatever it took for her own survival. All the indicators both contextual and historical point to it being a case of inability not inconvenience.

Even if he destroyed an army of Spider-Man level people, it'd be impressive, but that doesn't mean it's the most impressive thing about that, nor does it mean much against some possibly millions of times more durable (talking about King Thor vs Mindless Ones btw). Which brings about a question. If he destroyed an army of Spider-Men that was enough to overwhelm Umar, in much the same way... but at the same time destroyed something durable enough to take shots from tamed WBH. Which part of that feat should we only be looking at? And another question about me previously saying something about stacking durability. But do you think the same shockwave would have destroyed a Mindless One a thousand times more durable than a single one based on him destroying a thousand Mindless Ones?

The mindless ones massive sustained attack, and the hulks huge shockwave are different kind of outputs though so obviously if trying to compare them directly the scenarios will be unique. Nonetheless there is still no contradiction created by the fact that Umar survived hulks attack but couldn't survive the mindless ones sustained barrage and thus there is no way to denigrate that aspect of the hulks feat using that. Even attempting to do so is is quite nitpicky.

Now to answer your question, the reason why destroying an army of mindless ones in the shockwave when Umar couldnt is extremely impressive is because it gives us an idea of the amount of total force released. The total force released in the shockwave was at minimum....the amount of force needed to destroy one mindless one x the huge amount of mindless ones necessary to kill Umar in her own dimension ( this is without adding all the other stuff). Now this force was spread out over a distance as it was contained in the shockwave. Based on that information alone could a mindless one a 1000x more durable survive the shockwave? Possibly depending on how much force had dissipated or how many units of mass the force had acted upon prior to getting to that mindless one. The key here though is that it gives us an idea of the total force hulk was able to generate. So then question would be, can a mindless one a thousand times more durable survive getting hit with the total force generated if focused in one area like say a punch?...the answer to that is not even close. That's why in and of itself that part of the feat is very impressive as it has tremendous implications on the total amount of force Hulk can generate...and is thus extremely relevant to determining the power his punches

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
First off, I don't even think we see a Mindless Ones getting destroyed, so I'm not entirely sure how lined up they were.

They could be lined up like you said, with a thousand behind each one. They could be lined up in a huge line (where none of the energy dissipates), they could be a mix of each. They could be standing on each others shoulders. All I know is that not every single one, or maybe even half had to have gotten hit with dissipated energy. Though again, I have no problem if that was the case, but it just doesn't work with multiplying the force times the amount of Mindless Ones there. If there were two thousand, it isn't logical to assume that it was 2 thousand times more powerful than the force needed to destroy a single one. The most likely explanation is that what you're saying is true, however to a far lesser degree considering how scattered about they'd be.
Also, the omniblast being from somewhat above helps the energy not having to go through as many at a time.

I realize it's more impressive as it being an omniblast, and it being a shockwave from an attack. That still doesn't mean the actual shockwave gets a boost in damage.

But even using your logic, the Mindless Ones' durability is still a factor since it either becomes Hulk level times a million, or less than Thing level times a million.

I'm pretty sure the 60/70's Mindless Ones have been extinct for a while. Otherwise it's a slippery slope since you could conceivably put Dormammu/Umar together under the Hulk... 's shockwave. But yes, they are always an overwhelming force. That still doesn't make them uber durable.

And that's my entire point. You have to add in the rest of the feat. Because destroying the Mindless Ones isn't the feat to put him against King Thor IMO. If he would have only destroyed the Mindless Ones, I would have laughed at anyone using that feat on the forum against beings of this level tbh.
They were merely the canon fodder aspect of the feat to show how far it reached IMO (though it was still impressive, just not [b]AS impressive as being made out to be). However, the planet destroying illustrates that point even better... and destroying Ched as easily as he did illustrates the power of it even better as well. The Umar statement doesn't even need to be brought up like at all to show the actual impressiveness, you just have to look at the feat as a whole, as opposed to cut certain sections and using ABC logic to attain a level of understanding.

I realize. Though I don't think it's as cut and dry as you make it seem. I think it's a good fight either way. [/B]

You misunderstand me, it's not that shockwave that is getting a boost in power nor is the implication that a mindless ones 1000 times more durable wouldn't survive the shockwave (it almost certainly wouldn't but that can be determined based on other factors). The point is that destroying the totality of the mindless ones when Umar couldn't gives us a great comparative idea of the total amount of force Hulk generated.

At minimum to destroy that many mindless ones the total force contained in the shockwave would have to be the force needed to destroy one mindless one x the amount of them needed to overwhelm Umar in her own realm. The reason is that the total force of the shockwave would become less and less with each mindless one it acted on but there would still have to be enough force per unit mass at minimum to be capable of destroying each of those mindless ones. To have the exact same effect acting on multiple objects the force will have to be multiplied linearly . If they were scattered and it was from above,that's even better for hulk because it means the force in the shockwave would have travel some distance....dissipate and then still be able to destroy said mindless ones.

Now notice I'm talking in terms of total force and force per unit mass/volume. Just because the total force needed to be so tremendous does not mean that a much more durable character wouldn't survive the shockwave. Because the total force was so spread out and acting over various units of mass/volume, said character would only need to be able to survive the amount force per unit mass acting on him or her ( which was still a huge amount given that Armageddon and amped Foom were also disintegrated). However when that total force is then focused in a punch for instance......it's a whole nother story.

So no this isn't about durability stacking for each mindless ones or each mindless one being uber durable but rather the huge number of units of mass the force was acting on giving us a good idea of how much total force hulk was able to generate in that shockwave and subsequently how potent his actual punches would be (his punches would actually bend delivering force considerably considerably above the total force contained in the shockwave)

When you then add in the rest of the feat....it just makes it all the more astonishing and demonstrates the type of physical specimen that Pak intended for WBH to be. Nonetheless I don't think it's so cut and dry, but if KT makes the mistake of getting to up close and personal...he will be facing an uphill battle given not just WBH growing strength and durability, but also given the extent to which his Hf would be working at that level as well

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Someone scan me then. I'm going off like 5 years memory on this one.

I just remember Jane saying it, but Umar never confirming it.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Yeah, I had the Jane instance in mind when I mentioned that. Though someone showed Umar making a similar claim after getting "owned" by Thor in the same comic or some such sh1t.

Hold on for a while. I'll e-sniff out the scans.

Umar confirmed it on the same page, that Jane is correct:

http://i.imgur.com/pT4QLj9.jpg

Umar's plan was to get defeated by Thor so he could ask her (and Umar supposedly would have no choice but to answer since she is technically "defeated"😉 how to make Dormammu forfeit the game (in Thor's mind, that would mean a win for Odin, but in truth it would mean that Odin cheated and blamed for treachery), which is by smashing the barrier of the mindless ones.

Originally posted by carver9
When Umar assisted in taking out eternity (her and Dormammu)...was she amped? She has always been formidable...to the point that she can challenge Dorm while having the flame but, defeating Eternity is one of her greatest fts.

Yes she was heavily amped. There was a cosmic shift which increased Dormammu's and Umar's powers

Originally posted by operator616
Umar confirmed it on the same page, that Jane is correct:

http://i.imgur.com/pT4QLj9.jpg

Umar's plan was to get defeated by Thor so he could ask her (and Umar supposedly would have no choice but to answer since she is technically "defeated"😉 how to make Dormammu forfeit the game (in Thor's mind, that would mean a win for Odin, but in truth it would mean that Odin cheated and blamed for treachery), which is by smashing the barrier of the mindless ones.

Yes she was heavily amped. There was a cosmic shift which increased Dormammu's and Umar's powers

Thanks buddy and also thumbs up on the Umar scan.

Thor.

Originally posted by h1a8
Are you smoking crack?

Originally posted by h1a8

I'm not arguing that point.

Originally posted by h1a8
I was just bringing up something bran will do.

Originally posted by h1a8

I already said it was PIS. Which makes your killing Hulk and Thing comment dumb.

Originally posted by h1a8

And wtf are you talking about when you say that they had his son hostage? I'm talking about the instance where KT immediately kills CA and his shield after CA strikes him.

Originally posted by h1a8

Thor used a magical hammer plot device, not his pure strength. Also cracking a small portion of a world is nothing compared to COMPLETELY destroying a planet along with destroying disintegrating thousands of mindless ones and Hulk peers. That's an astronomical difference.

That moon was an called an inhabited planet in previous instances. And it was located light-years away from the actual place where Thor and Gor were exchanging blows. The narrative also mentioned that their blows were shattering worlds around them. But leave it to Thor-haters to twist every single feat of his into "narrative hyperbole", lol.

Originally posted by Epicurus
I am not h1a8, so no, I don't smoke crack.

You absolutely are.

And I was pointing out how incompetent you were at aping Bran's debating tactics.

Not sure how you claiming that it is PIS even while ignoring important context actually makes my comments seem dumb. But sure, continue with the bashing, instead of actually debating the point.

Baldur was holding his son hostage in that very same instance and Thor only took out Cap once Loki took care of the hostage situation. Your complete ignorance of such a simple story fact showcases your general lack of knowledge when it comes to most comics in general and Thor comics in particular.

Lol, so now we're supposed to believe that Mjolnir somehow amps his striking power? What proof do you have for this bullshit notion?

That moon was an called an inhabited planet in previous instances. And it was located light-years away from the actual place where Thor and Gor were exchanging blows. The narrative also mentioned that their blows were shattering worlds around them. But leave it to Thor-haters to twist every single feat of his into "narrative hyperbole", lol.

How can I be using it for evidence when I claimed PIS? Bringing up Thing and Hulk is dumb in light of me claiming PIS. That's a fact.

KT should still no sell CA attacks despite the situation. His durability shouldn't change, just the fact of him attacking only. But his head being shown to be affected is pure PIS. I view KT on Superman's level in physicality. So it is indeed genuine.

Mjolnir always amped Thor's hits. Otherwise Thor would use his fists instead of Mjolnir in so many situations that require blunt force. Common sense tells you that hitting with a hammer causes more damage than with your own fists.

No they were in the vicinity of the moon that got cracked and right next to the world that got cracked. Where do you get this light years from?

Originally posted by h1a8
How can I be using it for evidence

Originally posted by h1a8

KT should still no sell CA attacks despite the situation. His durability shouldn't change, just the fact of him attacking only. But his head being shown to be affected is pure PIS. I view KT on Superman's level in physicality. So it is indeed genuine.

Originally posted by h1a8
Mjolnir always amped Thor's hits.

Originally posted by h1a8

Otherwise Thor would use his fists instead of Mjolnir in so many situations that require blunt force. Common sense tells you that hitting with a hammer causes more damage than with your own fists.

And you still have yet to prove that Mjolnir's enchantment magically amps Thor's swinging strength to the point that he can shatter worlds lightyears away.

Originally posted by h1a8

No they were in the vicinity of the moon that got cracked and right next to the world that got cracked. Where do you get this light years from?

I get that notion based on common sense. Along with the fact that they were fighting at ftl speeds in that arc, and Old Thor's odinforce punch literally sent Gorr flying lightyears away on the planet upon which Current Thor engaged him.

Originally posted by Epicurus
By mentioning it in your post.

He was still wearing the anti-Odinforce amulet which Strange had put on him previously when Cap laid a beating on him. The amulet was removed only once Baldur was taken care off. Cap has managed to get wins on class 100 characters before. Think.

I want on-panel proof of this.

Except for the fact that Thor has used his fists in on-panel fights innumerable number of times.

And you still have yet to prove that Mjolnir's enchantment magically amps Thor's swinging strength to the point that he can shatter worlds lightyears away.

That moon was referred to as a "scarred world" just 2 pages later, lol.

I get that notion based on common sense. Along with the fact that they were fighting at ftl speeds in that arc, and Old Thor's odinforce punch literally sent Gorr flying lightyears away on the planet upon which Current Thor engaged him.

KT is very high class 100. Cap had no business even budging him. I doubt Cap has affected any high class 100 with his feet and fists ever. But I could be wrong.
Anyway Cap affected him after the amulet came off.

You are going against basic comic knowledge. Every member agrees that Thor hits harder with Mjolnir than his fists. Arguing against that is trolling since Thor's feats with Mjolnir is well beyond his fists, AND it goes against basic science. So to support them having the same striking power is baseless and goes against the writers intentions of having him strike many powerful beings (such as Celestials) using Mjolnir.

Anyway Thor was next to the world when this was happening (the moon wasn't too far off). I have no clue how you come up with lightyears.

😆 h1 is comedy gold

Originally posted by h1a8
I was mentioning it to give a message to Bran.

Originally posted by h1a8

KT is very high class 100. Cap had no business even budging him. I doubt Cap has affected any high class 100 with his feet and fists ever. But I could be wrong.

Originally posted by h1a8
Anyway Cap affected him after the amulet came off.

Originally posted by h1a8

You are going against basic comic knowledge.

Originally posted by h1a8

Every member agrees that Thor hits harder with Mjolnir than his fists.

Originally posted by h1a8

Arguing against that is trolling since Thor's feats with Mjolnir is well beyond his fists, AND it goes against basic science.

Originally posted by h1a8

So to support them having the same striking power is baseless and goes against the writers intentions of having him strike many powerful beings (such as Celestials) using Mjolnir.

Originally posted by h1a8

Anyway Thor was next to the world when this was happening (the moon wasn't too far off). I have no clue how you come up with lightyears.

You have yet to prove a single claim with actual on-panel fact as opposed to spewing the same rubbish for which you are lampooned and harried on a constant basis in this forum.