The Battlezone! Round 1 Match 2: Darth Talon vs Asajj Ventress (S5)

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He actually did Force choke him first. And followed it up by KO'ing him with FL. And I wouldn't look much into his panting face, as he gives a similar panting face in the latest episode after he just throws a few guards, and before he even engages Obi-Wan and Anakin.

I know, that's what I meant. Dooku struggles to handle Anakin with the Force even when Anakin is on his knees getting zapped by 4 stunpikes.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The 2 of them combined resisted a one handed force push.

Mmm hmm. Dooku cannot overpower both of them at once like Ventress did. Anyone with half a brain knows that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Urm what... The guy kick slammed him with a force enhanced kick, whilst simultaneously force choking and throwing Kenobi, and all in the middle of a lightsaber battle when they were both attacking him simultaneously.

Compare that to Kenobi and Anakin having Ventress disarmed and giving her a chance to surrender, so she takes advantage by attacking them both with the Force.

Dooku's feat was definitely a more impressive combat feat, which included a good load of Force powers. Dooku's feat left Kenobi KO'd and Skywalker floored. Ventress's feat didn't leave either opponent KO'd or Floored.

So what? Kicking someone seriously is not as impressive as Force Choking someone. You're not gonna use the Force to resist a kick, while Force Chokes usually have to rip through a Force barrier and you need to keep it up when the opponent obviously would be trying to block it with the Force. Ventresses feat is clearly superior since she maintained a Force Choke on Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, when they would obviously be fighting back.

You can say Dookus feat was more impressive in terms of his ability to pull it off in combat or whatever the **** I don't care, but its not close as impressive a Force feat. 😬

Originally posted by A Terrible Rod
And I'm trying to argue why that's not a good idea. Besides, this is only the second thread. It's not really too late to convince him otherwise.

Feel free to think it irrelevant, though. I just don't think that dismissing feats from powerful characters (and it's not like Windu and Yoda are anything but) just because they pass some arbitrarily-decided threshold of acceptability is something that we should be doing, at least in the scope of the EU as a whole.

Tempest?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Better than your ''take it all or leave it all'' explanation.

What?

Of course you include it all or ignore it all. You can't just pick and choose feats that you think makes sense.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What?

Of course you include it all or ignore it all. You can't just pick and choose feats that you think makes sense.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Mmm hmm. Dooku cannot overpower both of them at once like Ventress did. Anyone with half a brain knows that.

Really?

Originally posted by Nephthys
So what? Kicking someone seriously is not as impressive as Force Choking someone. You're not gonna use the Force to resist a kick, while Force Chokes usually have to rip through a Force barrier and you need to keep it up when the opponent obviously would be trying to block it with the Force. Ventresses feat is clearly superior since she maintained a Force Choke on Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, when they would obviously be fighting back.

You can say Dookus feat was more impressive in terms of his ability to pull it off in combat or whatever the **** I don't care, but its not close as impressive a Force feat. 😬

Well he still had a Lightsaber in one hand so unless you expect him to put his weapon down he obviously couldn't force choke them both in that situation. Remember Ventress only did it AFTER she was already disarmed and taking advantage of Skywalker and Kenobi giving her a chance to surrender.

Even if we forget the Flooring of Anakin, Force choking and KO'ing Kenobi like that, in the mdist of combat is a far more impressive force feat to me, especially when you look at the complete ease with which he casually dismissed and KO'd Kenobi. When you include the fact that he simultaneously had the Force strength to give frigging Skywalker a Force enhanced kick strong enough to Floor him and make him helpless for the next 10 seconds, it all makes Dooku's Force feat far more impressive to me. Without any question.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
There's a difference between low showings and inconsistent showings. [/B]

But in general most other PT-era sources are given weight here. Some are more in line with the films and TCW, some are beyond what those would ever show. By placing the microseries at the high end of these characters' feats, and TCW at the low end, you end up with a more compatible picture. Maybe Windu was really feelin' it in his midicholrians when he took down that droid army. Maybe the war was making him a little sleepy when he was chasing some mooks and trying to save a cartoon bird lady.

Maybe it's not important. The important part, to me, is that a powerful character like Mace Windu loses something when his best feats, which are in line with what one might expect of one of the most powerful Jedi, are dismissed because a more recent series makes him seem kinda weak. That series makes everyone weak. And it would make everyone else weak if they were in it. And then we'd be left arguing the same thing, and ignoring these characters feats from whatever series because it's inconsistent. Of course it is. It's not the same thing. And we're doing a disservice to sensible discourse by choosing to, rather than reconcile these differences, take them at face value.

So, context. I already explained that. You disagree, fine. But at least make an argument for it that goes beyond appeals to canonicity. That serves no one, and just kills discussion.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Tempest?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I just explained why we can. You finding the explanation lame is all well and good, but you've done nothing to make me reconsider.

Ok fine, I'll take Mace's CW Mini feats because it's consistent with Mace casually Force Crushing multiple destroyer droids and defeating the Emperor. But I'll ignore Ventress's, Anakin's, and Kenobi's because they were all above and beyond the other feats we've seen performed by them.

My thoughts and my words are now canon. And we shall use my rules as we debate.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Really?

Really.

Do you quarrel, sir?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well he still had a Lightsaber in one hand so unless you expect him to put his weapon down he obviously couldn't force choke them both in that situation. Remember Ventress only did it AFTER she was already disarmed and taking advantage of Skywalker and Kenobi giving her a chance to surrender.

Even if we forget the Flooring of Anakin, Force choking and KO'ing Kenobi like that, in the mdist of combat is a far more impressive force feat to me. When you include the fact that he had the strength to give frigging Skywalker a Force enhanced kick strong enough to Floor him and make him helpless for the next 10 seconds, all makes Dooku's Force feat far more impressive to me. Without any question.

I don't see how that matters at all. Are you trying to excuse Dooku for not Force Choking them both? Dude, if he could do that, he would do it every time they fight. If you're strong enough to Force Choke someone then why would you ever need to fight them in a prolonged duel, you're obviously able to Force pwn them comfortably.

What the ****? Why would that be as remotely as powerful as Force Choking Obi-Wan AND Anakin at the same time! Are you high? Am I talking to a crazy person? Just because he did it in the midst of combat doesn't make it more powerful. All it means is that Dooku is a superior combatant to be able to pull that off, by kicking Anakin out of the way and Force pwning Obi-wan. Obviously Dooku doing that is "better" than what Ventress did, but its not more powerful. At all. Ventress overpowering Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time is better than Dooku overpowering Obi-Wan and kicking Anakin. One of them involves overpowering both of them, the other involves overpowering one of them and kicking the other in the face. There is no comparison there.

Oh, he can use a Force-enhanced kick. Wow, good for him ANY JEDI CAN DO THAT! They only impressive part is that he actually managed to land it on Anakin, which doesn't have anything to do with the Force and is completely, utterly irrelevant to this topic. Jesus......

Originally posted by A Terrible Rod
Hope not. I don't like being other people.

Originally posted by A Terrible Rod
Id est, the entire universe. The alternative would be to straight-up not compare different series, as defined by a fairly consistent approach to the various elements that make up force power. For example, some of those TOR characters have consistently powerful feats that put some of the microseries stuff to shame. Which is quite inconsistent with the way force abilities in general are portrayed in TCW, which is itself consistently more low-key. The entire things are completely at odds with one another, and to directly compare only them, you'd end up with a sad state of affairs in the supposed golden age of the Jedi. But that's an extreme I don't think anyone is arguing for, so I'll leave that there.

I don't see that at all. TOR and other era stuff are entirely consistent with all other eras. The issue with the Clone Wars is one of internal inconsistency in the era itself. Its inconsistent for the characters depicted in the Tartakovsky series to suddenly be well, well under-performing in other mediums. THAT is inconsistent. Its internally inconsistent with whats established in the vast majority of depictions of the same characters in other mediums. It is not inconsistent for TOR era characters to perform Force feats beyond what their clone wars compatriots do. That's not inconsistent, that's just them being better than them in that regard. The CW era is simply a low-key era, populated almost entirely with Jedi who do not push the Force in ways other eras do.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It is not inconsistent for TOR era characters to perform Force feats beyond what their clone wars compatriots do. That's not inconsistent, that's just them being better than them in that regard. The CW era is simply a low-key era, populated almost entirely with Jedi who do not push the Force in ways other eras do. [/B]

Instead, a question. Can you honestly say that, if a TCW-style series (same creative approach, that is) were made of the TOR era, the characters there would still be performing the same sorts of feats? Maybe you could, but I would imagine they would receive a similar treatment.

(For clarification's sake, in my mind: PT-era EU is good. PT itself is garbage.)

Originally posted by Nephthys
Tempest?

No, but I do like this guy.

Originally posted by A Terrible Rod
Well, I imagine we're not going to ever agree on that point. Of course, I'm prone to dismissing anything TOR out of hand, and won't even try to pretend that I'm not hideously biased against it. So I won't tackle how the TOR-era force-users stack up to the PT-era ones. It would get nowhere.

Instead, a question. Can you honestly say that, if a TCW-style series (same creative approach, that is) were made of the TOR era, the characters there would still be performing the same sorts of feats? Maybe you could, but I would imagine they would receive a similar treatment.

(For clarification's sake, in my mind: PT-era EU is good. PT itself is garbage.)

Well now you're really sounding like Tempest. excellent (sick burn!)

I dunno. I think that wouldn't be unlikely. The caliber of the TOR era people is just on the whole superior to the PT era. The Dark Council seems much more powerful than the Jedi High Council. The Hero of Tython and the Barsen'thor are much more powerful than Anakin and Obi-Wan. Darth Nox and Darth Malgus are greater than Dooku and Maul. And this isn't just by feats, but by actual accomplishments and absolute canon info as well. Yoda and Sidious obviously stack up though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Really.

Do you quarrel, sir?

Uh yeah..

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see how that matters at all. Are you trying to excuse Dooku for not Force Choking them both?

How the f*** could he whilst in the middle a Saber fight with both of them. I mean honestly when was the last time you saw ANY Jedi or Sith Force choking 2 other powerful Jedi simultaneously Mid-Saber battle?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dude, if he could do that, he would do it every time they fight. If you're strong enough to Force Choke someone then why would you ever need to fight them in a prolonged duel, you're obviously able to Force pwn them comfortably.

Oh really? That's why Ventress force choked them both right at the beginning of the fight right? Oh wait.. What exactly was she waiting for? The right opportunity maybe..

And that's why Dooku Force choked Kenobi and kick slammed Skywalker everytime they fought right? You need to sit back, calm down, and start applying some consistent logic once in a while.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What the ****? Why would that be as remotely as powerful as Force Choking Obi-Wan [b]AND Anakin at the same time! Are you high?[/B]

No, but I'm beginning to think you are.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Am I talking to a crazy person?

If your talking to yourself again then YES YOU ARE.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just because he did it in the midst of combat doesn't make it more powerful.

It obviously makes it a much more difficult feat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
All it means is that Dooku is a superior combatant to be able to pull that off,

And more powerful in the Force.

Originally posted by Nephthys
by kicking Anakin out of the way and Force pwning Obi-wan. Obviously Dooku doing that is "better" than what Ventress did, but its not more powerful. At all.

LOL Of course it makes him more powerful. Which one of the duo did Ventress KO again?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ventress overpowering Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time is better than Dooku overpowering Obi-Wan and kicking Anakin. One of them involves overpowering both of them, the other involves overpowering one of them and kicking the other in the face. There is no comparison there.

Again, which one of them did Ventress KO again? And how do you not consider Dooku's feat as overpowering them both? He KO'd one of them and floored the other one leaving him helpless. Your right though, there is no comparison here. Dooku's feat is far greater.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh, he can use a Force-enhanced kick. Wow, good for him ANY JEDI CAN DO THAT! They only impressive part is that he actually managed to land it on Anakin, which doesn't have anything to do with the Force and is completely, utterly irrelevant to this topic. Jesus......

And those beastly Force enhanced kicks which leave Skywalker floored half way across the room, which apparently ANYONE can do, requires no power in the Force at all right? You need to call Jesus more often son, to come down and knock some sense into you.

Originally posted by Nephthys

]

To some up let's compare the feats again. Ventress after already being disarmed of both her weapons, and given an opportunity to surrender, Screams, clearly using all of the power and rage at her disposal, manages to temporarily levitate 2 Jedi, choking them, but with no definite result to be predicted of that outcome.

Dooku on the other hand manages to casually levitate and KO Kenobi in the midst of Lightsaber combat against multiple opponents, and also manages to do this whilst clearly using a considerable amount of Force power to send Skywalker flying... And you think that's not even comparable to what Ventress did? Really?

Think you should direct those facepalms back at yourself kiddo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The caliber of the TOR era people is just on the whole superior to the PT era.

Incoming wall of off-topic crap, by the by. But I feel the need to vent a little. This has no bearing on reality, mind you. Just... opinions. (I'd stick it in a spoiler tag if I could.)

That is to say, from my point of view, these characters might seem to be really very powerful, but they really shouldn't be. Let's look at Dooku. He was, after all, considered by the Jedi of the time as one of the greatest in the history of the order. I'd envision characters like this are supposed to be a cut above, the exceptions. The sort of character you get a few of every era. Dooku, Windu, eventually Vader, and so on. Then the really good characters of the era, maybe a dozen or so, our Obi-Wans, our Mauls, our Kit Fistos (or substitute your own favorite character here).

Then you get TOR. Blam, you get like two dozen characters right out of the gate who seem to blow the good Count out of the water, and I just don't think that's a good thing. At Dooku's level you should have a few: Malgus, our player characters (because players need to have their egos fluffed), Satele Shan (she is the grandmaster, after all, but she's no Yoda). Then the better Dark Council members and Jedi masters fill the next 'tier'. The Emperor would of course fill the Sidous or Yoda level.

That'll do for now.

👆

Peculiar how hyperbolic, exaggerated portrayals are only ever considered when it comes to film characters.

Since when did DP become a psuedo KT? Goddamn.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Uh yeah..

Do you bit your thumb at me, sir?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
How the f*** could he whilst in the middle a Saber fight with both of them. I mean honestly when was the last time you saw ANY Jedi or Sith Force choking 2 other powerful Jedi simultaneously Mid-Saber battle?

Why would he even need to engage them in a lighsaber duel if he could have just walked into the throne room and throttled them into submission?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh really? That's why Ventress force choked them both right at the beginning of the fight right? Oh wait.. What exactly was she waiting for? The right opportunity maybe..

And that's why Dooku Force choked Kenobi and kick slammed Skywalker everytime they fought right? You need to sit back, calm down, and start applying some consistent logic once in a while.

THANK you! Thats exactly my point, that Ventress can't do that normally, can she? Ventress only achieved that by, as you said, "using all of the power and rage at her disposal". Its a much more powerful feat than she is ordinarily capable of, considering Anakin is her superior in the Force. That is the entire point that I am making after all. That it is woefully inconsistent with her other feats and considering its above what even Dooku is capable of, not something she can do regularly.

Dooku can Force pwn Kenobi though, pretty much whenever he wants.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No, but I'm beginning to think you are.

I apologise for my harsh tone earlier. I still do think you are being pretty silly though.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It obviously makes it a much more difficult feat.

Yes, but it doesn't require more power. Its a good feat of skill, combat skill, but not power. Which is what he are discussing.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And more powerful in the Force.

Obviously Dooku is more powerful than her. But that feat she did is above him, hence the inconsistency.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
LOL Of course it makes him more powerful. Which one of the duo did Ventress KO again?

KO'ing them isn't the point. The point is that she choked them both for several seconds where they couldn't resist her. Just like Dooku held Kenobi without him being able to stop him. Dooku's feat is not more powerful because he KO'ed Kenobi, just more effective.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Again, which one of them did Ventress KO again? And how do you not consider Dooku's feat as overpowering them both? He KO'd one of them and floored the other one leaving him helpless. Your right though, there is no comparison here. Dooku's feat is far greater.

He didn't overpower Anakin with the Force. There was no direct Force attack made on Anakin. Dooku just kicked him, while enhancing the kicks power. No big deal.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And those beastly Force enhanced kicks which leave Skywalker floored half way across the room, which apparently ANYONE can do, requires no power in the Force at all right? You need to call Jesus more often son, to come down and knock some sense into you.

Pretty much an average Jedi could enhance a kick to make it more powerful.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
To some up let's compare the feats again. Ventress after already being disarmed of both her weapons, and given an opportunity to surrender, Screams, clearly using all of the power and rage at her disposal, manages to temporarily levitate 2 Jedi, choking them, but with no definite result to be predicted of that outcome.

Dooku on the other hand manages to casually levitate and KO Kenobi in the midst of Lightsaber combat against multiple opponents, and also manages to do this whilst clearly using a considerable amount of Force power to send Skywalker flying... And you think that's not even comparable to what Ventress did? Really?

Think you should direct those facepalms back at yourself kiddo.

That about sums it up. Except where it apparantly takes a considerable amount of Force power to kick someone in the face. The PT era is THAT weak, come on. 🙄

Also Anakin only 'flew' a few feet away.

Originally posted by A Terrible Rod
Well, they were certainly written to be quite powerful, but I'd sooner put that to the writers having no sense of scope than anything else. Which, of course, should ultimately not matter in discussions of relative power and the like, but is hard to ignore.

Incoming wall of off-topic crap, by the by. But I feel the need to vent a little. This has no bearing on reality, mind you. Just... opinions. (I'd stick it in a spoiler tag if I could.)

That is to say, from my point of view, these characters might seem to be really very powerful, but they really shouldn't be. Let's look at Dooku. He was, after all, considered by the Jedi of the time as one of the greatest in the history of the order. I'd envision characters like this are supposed to be a cut above, the exceptions. The sort of character you get a few of every era. Dooku, Windu, eventually Vader, and so on. Then the really good characters of the era, maybe a dozen or so, our Obi-Wans, our Mauls, our Kit Fistos (or substitute your own favorite character here).

Then you get TOR. Blam, you get like two dozen characters right out of the gate who seem to blow the good Count out of the water, and I just don't think that's a good thing. At Dooku's level you should have a few: Malgus, our player characters (because players need to have their egos fluffed), Satele Shan (she is the grandmaster, after all, but she's no Yoda). Then the better Dark Council members and Jedi masters fill the next 'tier'. The Emperor would of course fill the Sidous or Yoda level.

That'll do for now.

Fair points. TOR is just the latest in the long line of Star Wars trying to top itself after all.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Since when did DP become a psuedo KT? Goddamn.

Goddamn you for comparing me to KT! I mean KT?! KT?!

Originally posted by Nephthys

Why would he even need to engage them in a lighsaber duel if he could have just walked into the throne room and throttled them into submission?

Why didn't he just force choke Kenobi as soon as he walked in?

Perhaps to seduce Anakin to the Dark side under Sidious's orders. Or perhaps it's just not that simple.

Originally posted by Nephthys
THANK you! Thats exactly my point, that Ventress can't do that normally, can she? Ventress only achieved that by, as you said, "using all of the power and rage at her disposal". Its a much more powerful feat than she is ordinarily capable of, considering Anakin is her superior in the Force. That is the entire point that I am making after all. That it is woefully inconsistent with her other feats and considering its above what even Dooku is capable of, not something she can do regularly.

But she was in an Rage enhanced state the whole time. And yet she still chose to engage them in Lightsaber combat first.

But basically yeah I'm going by Dooku being more powerful (based on those 2 feats alone) because of his attack's:

1. Effectivness.
2. Context.
3. The ease with which he did his, compared to the difficulty and concentration Ventress had to put into hers. Her attack which wasn't even going to necessarily KO either of them. And it was in doubt how long she could carry that on for.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I apologise for my harsh tone earlier. I still do think you are pretty.

Thank you. I knew my new haircut would do wonders.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That about sums it up. Except where it apparantly takes a considerable amount of Force power to kick someone in the face. The PT era is THAT weak, come on. 🙄

Also Anakin only 'flew' a few feet away.

No no no no no. No. No.

It obviously requires some power in the Force, (especially considering who it is he's sending flying). Making his very casual Force KO of Kenobi even more impressive.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Why didn't he just force choke Kenobi as soon as he walked in?

Perhaps to seduce Anakin to the Dark side under Sidious's orders. Or perhaps it's just not that simple.

Because Anakin would have either helped Obi-Wan block it, like how they did in S6 or he would have attacked Dooku to make him stop.

Also yeah, Dooku was playing at the start.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But she was in an Rage enhanced state the whole time. And yet she still chose to engage them in Lightsaber combat first.

But basically yeah I'm going by Dooku being more powerful (based on those 2 feats alone) because of his attack's:

1. Effectivness.
2. Context.
3. The ease with which he did his, compared to the difficulty and concentration Ventress had to put into hers. Her attack which wasn't even going to necessarily KO either of them. And it was in doubt how long she could carry that on for.

She was pissed maybe, but not desperate enough to really give it everything. Also, I don't see what your point is here.

1. Nothing to do with power.
2. Nothing to do with power.
3. Dooku did it out of desperation though. It was not easy for him. Plus overpowering Kenobi relatively easily is still not nearly as impressive as overpowering Kenobi and Anakin at the same time. And its not as if Dooku KO'd Kenobi through direct Force power either, he did it by chucking him against a railing. And she had pulled it off for a full 6 seconds, more than enough time for the Jedi to attempt to break her Force Grip. They were unlikely to do so before she KO'd them.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No no no no no. No. No.

It obviously requires some power in the Force, (especially considering who it is he's sending flying). Making his very casual Force KO of Kenobi even more impressive.

Some power, obviously yes. Some small amount of power. 😉

Seriously I don't even know why you're arguing this. Ventress' feat is so obviously superior to his I can't comprehend what you're thinking.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Seriously I don't even know why you're arguing this. Ventress' feat is so obviously superior to his I can't comprehend what you're thinking.

I really don't see it, because we never saw the end effect of her attack. If she ended up KO'ing both of them, then yeah I'd 100% agree. But as it was Dooku KO's one of them with complete ease, while doing a simultaneous powerful attack mid-saber fight. Whilst Ventress attacked them both with clear difficulty and with no quantifiable result.