Revan's Raw Power Comparison

Nephthys

And you're nothing but a whiny child who can't accept that I beat you twice already and that just maybe your almighty PT characters can lose so leaped on Tempest's tired accusations of double standards to sooth your ego. I'll make it easy on you and tell you straight up to **** off. I don't need to be taught the error of my ways and you can take that arrogant, superior attitude and shove it up your ass. I'm not "defensive" because I can't win, I'm pissed off because that kind of thing aggravates the shit out of me. Worry about your own shitty style of debating and leave me out of it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
We could go back and forth all day about who kicked whose ass, but you and I both know who had that argument.

I leaped on Tempest accusations of double standards to sooth my ego about an argument that I picked with you mainly to call you out on double standards? Doesn't make much sense, now does it? That Tempest later acknowledged the same BS from you, which is very obvious, should tell you something. Regardless, the point remains that you are unable to address the issue, and instead rant because of your inability to do so without making characters like Vitiate less impressive than you want them to be.

What aggravates you? Me not tolerating your BS? Well cheer up, girl, I'll let you continue in relying on a bunch of implications and nexus feats to elevate characters you prefer. I just won't be taking you seriously.

😐

I think S66 undersells Vitiate, but he is right to call you on your double standards, Neph. If you didn't use them, no one would call you out on them, and then no one on either side would be frustrated and everyone wins.

I don't think I undersell Vitiate. I just don't place him in Sidious' league, because a feat to feat comparison, Palpatine beats him in just about every category concerning combat.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
We could go back and forth all day about who kicked whose ass, but you and I both know who had that argument.

I leaped on Tempest accusations of double standards to sooth my ego about an argument that I picked with you mainly to call you out on double standards? Doesn't make much sense, now does it? That Tempest later acknowledged the same BS from you, which is very obvious, should tell you something. Regardless, the point remains that you are unable to address the issue, and instead rant because of your inability to do so without making characters like Vitiate less impressive than you want them to be.

What aggravates you? Me not tolerating your BS? Well cheer up, girl, I'll let you continue in relying on a bunch of implications and nexus feats to elevate characters you prefer. I just won't be taking you seriously.

Yeah, I did. Which is why you failed to respond in the end.

Lawl, you picked that argument because I and others dared to suggest Revan was superior to Dooku. You straight up admitted you wanted to get into a debate over that. So don't act as if you were on some righteous crusade against my heretical dishonesty. You were just butthurt that Dooku's not as amazing as you thought he was. Tempest whined about the same thing he's been harping on about for years and then failed to point out any actual double standards in my post when I called him on it other than something completely irrelevant that I successfully justified anyway. And I did address the issue.

No, your self-righteous moralising and superior attitude towards "educating" me. I'd sooner put you on ignore than listen to that shit and that goes for you as well Tempest. I don't want to hear it.

For the record, of the three of us, I'm the only one here who can easily claim to not be whining lol.

Nephthys
I'd sooner put you on ignore than listen to that shit and that goes for you as well Tempest. I don't want to hear it.

Oh, not this rigamarole again. If your beef is with anyone, it should be with S66. I'm just agreeing with him on a perceived flaw in your debating style.

If you want to put me on ignore over that, go right ahead. 😬

It is with him, I'm just reminding you that that habit of yours annoys me. Of course I don't actually want to put you on ignore. I like you alot and consider you a friend.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It is with him, I'm just reminding you that that habit of yours annoys me. Of course I don't actually want to put you on ignore. I like you alot and consider you a friend.

Your double standards annoy me, bro. I learn to live with it. And I, too, like you a lot and consider you a friend.

Of the buttsecks variety. 131

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, I did. Which is why you failed to respond in the end.

Lawl, you picked that argument because I and others dared to suggest Revan was superior to Dooku. You straight up admitted you wanted to get into a debate over that. So don't act as if you were on some righteous crusade against my heretical dishonesty. You were just butthurt that Dooku's not as amazing as you thought he was. Tempest whined about the same thing he's been harping on about for years and then failed to point out any actual double standards in my post when I called him on it other than something completely irrelevant that I successfully justified anyway. And I did address the issue.

No, your self-righteous moralising and superior attitude towards "educating" me. I'd sooner put you on ignore than listen to that shit and that goes for you as well Tempest. I don't want to hear it.

I didn't respond to it because you didn't properly address my points or counter my arguments, and told me you wanted to end it there, so why bother repeating my same arguments? You were arguing from your opinion with nothing to back it up. You failed to address the double standard as you failed in this thread. As I said, you and I both know who had that argument.

No, I used the same logic against Vitiate that you used to lowball Dooku, which is what ticked you off.

Oh, please don't put me on ignore. 🙁

And then you brought it up again here out of buttmadness. I had the argument in the bag and anyone could see it. All you had was a load of unproven assertions, while I had way more than just my opinion.

I literally laughed at that in previous thread. The only thing that ticked me off was your shitty attitude. You can accuse me of otherwise all you want, it's the gods honest truth.

Stop badgering me about this and I won't have to.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And then you brought it up again here out of buttmadness. I had the argument in the bag and anyone could see it. All you had was a load of unproven assertions, while I had way more than just my opinion.

I literally laughed at that in previous thread. The only thing that ticked me off was your shitty attitude. You can accuse me of otherwise all you want, it's the gods honest truth.

Stop badgering me about this and I won't have to.

So if I brought it up again, wouldn't that suggest that I still didn't get the answer I wanted from you, which began in the thread you "kicked my ass" in? I mean, if the argument was yours then you should have easily been able to address it here.

You're ticked off because I used the same logic against Vitiate that you use on Dooku. Just admit it. lol

I wasn't being serious. I don't care if you put me on ignore. You missed that one too, eh?

Of course, because the answer you want to get isn't something you're ever going to get from me because Revan > Dooku. It's no failing of mine that you refuse to accept that you lost the argument.

Nope.

No, really??? Aw man that like, totally flew over my head. I'm such trash.

I'm sensing some naked hostility here.

Actually I'm feeling pretty cool now. It's so much better to just get these things over with and hash it out. Carthartic, you know? Not mad any more.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Of course, because the answer you want to get isn't something you're ever going to get from me because Revan > Dooku. It's no failing of mine that you refuse to accept that you lost the argument.

Nope.

No, really??? Aw man that like, totally flew over my head. I'm such trash.

You didn't prove that Revan is greater than Dooku. You relied on a feat that happened within game mechanic material, which is known to exaggerate force feats, but expected me not to use the mini CW series for that very reason. I usually don't use those series as a source of feats anymore, unless the portrayals are consistent, and when I look back Ventress has been depicted as being a power house with TK in various of other sources. The fact that Dooku can easily dominate her is something beyond anything Revan has done TK-wise. You expected me to take the calculations of those meteors as fact based on common meteors that happen to land on earth, despite the fact that most meteors do not make it to earth's surface without burning out because not all are the same in density. Your counter claim to that, was that rock is made of metal, so that means they are heavy, perhaps tons, which I agree. However, we don't know the exact calculations, and we don't know the full circumstance surrounding the feat. You picked two scenarios, and expected me to take one or the other as the only likely scenarios, when, in fact, I could name about 5 others that would make the feat less impressive, and require less effort from Revan. The feat lacks context, unlike most of Dooku's. We see how casually Dooku can lift 12 obelisks far above his head. We see how easily Dooku can seal off the entrance of a huge cave by collapsing the ceiling, which also happens to be made of rock. Then we see him casually pull down a huge balcony, which was larger than a star ship.

Hang on, I thought collapsing a cave wasn't impressive? Or is that just when Orgus Din does it?

That claim never came from my mouth.

The cave Dooku collapsed was pretty large, and he did it in about a second.

Even the huge chucks of rock that Ventress pulled from the cave ceiling in the mini series required substantial effort on her part, which is why I don't consider that feat all that exaggerated considering her other feats.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Are you serious? Your argument was a link to a damn Jensaarai1 video. Is that even eligible?

No, I didn't forget your argument. Though, when you do create an argument, I recommend to not type out of your ass, because everything you wrote is pure shit.

Ah yes. Forgive me for assuming you had the comic. I thought you did considering your godly debating skills. The first comic, Visionaries, is ridiculous in how it displays time. It nearly does literal frame by frame.
Below you can see Palpatine standing and raising his hands in different segments. It is clear that if Yoda did his feat in merely one segment, it must be insanely fast. Then it does 8 different frames for him to pick up that worm and eat it.

- - - - -
The second one, Yoda, is not that much different. Look below over how slow some of the panels are portrayed.

- - - - -
So yeah, both of these are completely eligible. I'm rather interested on how you can even object.

Awful example. You are now ignoring Yoda from the Expanded Universe because it doesn't agree with Jensaarai1's thoughts? Have fun.

Maybe you need to watch it again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqVcZ1GeBIc&index=2&list=PL690BEFD9DF38C03F
Yoda merely raises his arm and all the Droideka's fly in the air. Then his next feat, which is his most impressive feat, of course requires concentration.
Palpatine couldn't preform that feat either without as much strain as Yoda. So I don't really see your point at all. 😬

Perhaps you want to buy the novelization of Attack of the Clones? It shows proof that his "small hands waved and the boulders dropped to the sides."
The novelization, which has much more canonical weight then your interpretation of the movie, agrees with me. I don't really see how you can argue that he struggled.

You are not funny. 😐

You are merely making an example at just one pod. And that example itself is poor. Yoda purposely concentrated and took his time for a precision throw. If you didn't realize, canonically, Palpatine "barely dodged" that assault.
Also, once again I like how then you ignore the fact that when Yoda didn't concentrate, him and Palpatine were ragdolling senate pods at each other according to the novel. Yes, this would be off-screen in the movie, hence why you didn't see it.

"...it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor."
―Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith Novelization

[/B]
But then now you are making ultimately no sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvnwLLXHabg&t=3m26s
Yoda seemingly has the most trouble with lightning at the end of the first burst.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvnwLLXHabg&t=3m38s
The second time he has demonstrated struggling is at the [b]end of the second burst.
At the beginning of them he does fine, lol. So I don't see your point here at all.

Once again, none of the quotes I have supplied contradicts the movies at all. And once again, Vitiate's lightning is more powerful then Sidious'. I am waiting too, but the guy is busy. You can wait a little longer.

1. Concerning the comic, I fail to see how that changes the fact that from the source you provided we cannot be sure of what happened between the two frames, your supposition that nothing happened is just that, a supposition, and it cannot be used as the basis for argument.

2. Concerning your claim that I am ignoring the EU, I judge its validity appropriately. On the other hand you are ignoring the movies. i.e. a higher level of canon. I'm not interested in your opinion on this matter, its a fact, accept it and move on. EU canon has been stated to be more abstract in its portrayal of characters, whereas the movies are far more accurate. The moment you attempt to form an argument based on the SW Universe, you accept that fact.

3. In regards to Examples 3 and 4. I restate my point. This is Yoda in his element, a non-combat situation free from distractions aside from the matter at hand. Neither does he perform this feat out of hand, not only does he clamber up to the vantage point with the very intention of performing this power, alone giving him plenty of time to gather his energies, but he pauses for a good 5 seconds before actually performing the feat.

And this is all the time Yoda needs to pull of these displays of power, time he did not have the luxury of when Dooku shot lightning at him (which travels at incredible speeds) on Geonosis.

4. In regards to the AoTC scene, I fail to see how you can argue that he didn't struggle. It is blatantly self evident. Yoda grunts with exertion and his hands tremble.

Please, explain to me how this is not an indication of struggling. You failed to do so the first time, here is your second chance.

Anyway, despite the movies being superior to the novel. I'll humor you: "small hands waved and the boulders dropped to the sides."

How does this in anyway convey ease, and how is it in anyway incompatible with the movie? Look at the scene, Yoda's hands wave, the boulders drop to the sides. But the physical exertion and struggling is still there. You are reading between the lines here, and assuming that the brevity and off-hand nature of the sentence combined, suggests ease. That is your interpretation, I on the other hand, am dealing with the facts.

5. Concerning example 5, to quote "bring up the fact that he rotated it first if you like, but that only makes it insufficient proof I'm afraid as we do not know what would have happened if Yoda launched it immediately." I personally, saw this as insufficient evidence from the start, you are the one who brought it up, you are the one I'm afraid responsible for the weak proof.

In regards to the quote, you have blatantly misinterpreted that scene, it is exclusively referring to Sidious. Hence it being described as:

"...a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor."

Yoda did not launch any pods, not in the novel, not in the script not in the movie. And you are quickly running out of evidence.

6. Now, in regards to the videos. This is unfortunately debunked by the very mechanics of the power. At the beginning of both attacks Yoda has failed to absorb all of the energy, most notably the kinetic energy that forces his arm back, however as he gathers his strength he is able to contain the energy and, most notably, the kinetic force stops.

Nonetheless, I fail to see a notable change in Yoda's stance or expression throughout the whole sequence, this is a very tenuous interpretation you are making, and ultimately just that.

The novel is far more clear on the subject, and its purpose is to elucidate on the events of the movies, and where there is no contradiction the events are canonical.

Dooku gave a little growl and thrust forth his hand, loosing a line of blue lightning at the diminutive Master. Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily.
"Powerful you have become, Dooku," Yoda admitted, and the Count grinned—but Yoda promptly took that grin away by adding, "The dark side I sense in you."
"I have become more powerful than any Jedi," Dooku countered. "Even you, my old Master!" More lightning poured forth from Dooku's hand, but Yoda continued to catch it and turn it, and seemed to become even more settled in his defensive posture
"Much to learn you still have," Yoda remarked.
Dooku disengaged the futile lightning assault.

If I recall this was in the OP. Clearly establishing that as time went on, Yoda's ability to negate Dooku's attacks grew. It is explicit.

So add that to your list of evidence to debunk.

7. I suppose it that instance your correct, that quote does not dispute the movie. The fact it took Yoda all his power to overcome the Sidious' lightning is indeed the truth. But using it as a precedence to state that Yoda's ability to resist Sidious' lightning over time is flat out wrong in regards to the movie, which makes a dramatic effect out of Yoda initially struggling and then overwhelming Sidious. It is again, explicit.

And concerning Luke's superiority to Revan....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwvnRneMHiY&t=2m10s

SupremeSkillz is busy contributing positively to the SWTOR forums so yeah, he could be gone for some time. But feel free to keep using that petty excuse as a defense - it won't last.

I tried to make that one easier for you to comprehend, I hope you managed OK.

Lol I like to see you giving up and becoming desperate, makes me happy.
However, why can't you just ****ing quote? I'll respond by 12:00am ET.

I'll bypass the babble, and assume your conceding those points.

You are now literally repeating your same argument over again. 😬 You are running out of evidence.

1. Concerning the comic, I fail to see how that changes the fact that from the source you provided we cannot be sure of what happened between the two frames, your supposition that nothing happened is just that, a supposition, and it cannot be used as the basis for argument.

2. Concerning your claim that I am ignoring the EU, I judge its validity appropriately. On the other hand you are ignoring the movies. i.e. a higher level of canon. I'm not interested in your opinion on this matter, its a fact, accept it and move on. EU canon has been stated to be more abstract in its portrayal of characters, whereas the movies are far more accurate. The moment you attempt to form an argument based on the SW Universe, you accept that fact.

3. In regards to Examples 3 and 4. I restate my point. This is Yoda in his element, a non-combat situation free from distractions aside from the matter at hand. Neither does he perform this feat out of hand, not only does he clamber up to the vantage point with the very intention of performing this power, alone giving him plenty of time to gather his energies, but he pauses for a good 5 seconds before actually performing the feat.

4. In regards to the AoTC scene, I fail to see how you can argue that he didn't struggle. It is blatantly self evident. Yoda grunts with exertion and his hands tremble.

Please, explain to me how this is not an indication of struggling. You failed to do so the first time, here is your second chance.

Anyway, despite the movies being superior to the novel. I'll humor you: "small hands waved and the boulders dropped to the sides."

How does this in anyway convey ease, and how is it in anyway incompatible with the movie? Look at the scene, Yoda's hands wave, the boulders drop to the sides. But the physical exertion and struggling is still there. You are reading between the lines here, and assuming that the brevity and off-hand nature of the sentence combined, suggests ease. That is your interpretation, I on the other hand, am dealing with the facts.

"Yoda and Dooku engaged in battle. First their powers in the Force were put to the test as Dooku attempted to crush the tiny Jedi Master with hurled debris. Yoda easily deflected such assaults, and even repulsed Dooku's Force Lightning attacks."
―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

I accept your concession. Your interpretation of the fight does not outweigh a C-Canon level book.

5. Concerning example 5, to quote "bring up the fact that he rotated it first if you like, but that only makes it insufficient proof I'm afraid as we do not know what would have happened if Yoda launched it immediately." I personally, saw this as insufficient evidence from the start, you are the one who brought it up, you are the one I'm afraid responsible for the weak proof.

In regards to the quote, you have blatantly misinterpreted that scene, it is exclusively referring to Sidious. Hence it being described as:

"...a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor."

Yoda did not launch any pods, not in the novel, not in the script not in the movie. And you are quickly running out of evidence.

"It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor."
―Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith Novelization

Silver2467, creator of the Yoda and Darth Sidious Respect Threads, and one of the most respected debaters of all time, agrees with me on this. They threw a barrage of senate pods "against each other", hence the "hammers, battering rams, [and] catapult stones." I accept your concession here as well. Below are two quotes directly taken from his respect threads:

Yoda and Darth Sidious throw a barrage of senate pods at one another and slammed them together as they fought.
[The quote I just posted]
--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Sidious unleashes Lightning while he and Yoda cross blades and hurl around senate pods simultaneously.
[The quote I just posted]
--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

- - - - - -

6. Now, in regards to the videos. This is unfortunately debunked by the very mechanics of the power. At the beginning of both attacks Yoda has failed to absorb all of the energy, most notably the kinetic energy that forces his arm back, however as he gathers his strength he is able to contain the energy and, most notably, the kinetic force stops.

Nonetheless, I fail to see a notable change in Yoda's stance or expression throughout the whole sequence, this is a very tenuous interpretation you are making, and ultimately just that.

The novel is far more clear on the subject, and its purpose is to elucidate on the events of the movies, and where there is no contradiction the events are canonical.

Dooku gave a little growl and thrust forth his hand, loosing a line of blue lightning at the diminutive Master. Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily.
"Powerful you have become, Dooku," Yoda admitted, and the Count grinned—but Yoda promptly took that grin away by adding, "The dark side I sense in you."
"I have become more powerful than any Jedi," Dooku countered. "Even you, my old Master!" More lightning poured forth from Dooku's hand, but Yoda continued to catch it and turn it, and seemed to become even more settled in his defensive posture
"Much to learn you still have," Yoda remarked.
Dooku disengaged the futile lightning assault.

7. I suppose it that instance your correct, that quote does not dispute the movie. The fact it took Yoda all his power to overcome the Sidious' lightning is indeed the truth. But using it as a precedence to state that Yoda's ability to resist Sidious' lightning over time is flat out wrong in regards to the movie, which makes a dramatic effect out of Yoda initially struggling and then overwhelming Sidious. It is again, explicit.

"Darth Sidious overwhelmed Yoda with the destructive energy of the dark side, and the Jedi Master fled Coruscant."
―http://www.starwars.com/databank/emperor-palpatine-darth-sidious

And then even the Kid's Scholastic novel states that Yoda was eventually overwhelmed and couldn't hold it either as more lightning build up, despite you claiming Yoda would have got more powerful as time increased.
"But Palpatine didn't stop; the Force lightning came in a steady crackle, building more and more, until neither of them could hold it any longer, and the blast knocked them both out of the pod."
―Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith; Scholastic Book

SupremeSkillz is busy contributing positively to the SWTOR forums so yeah, he could be gone for some time. But feel free to keep using that petty excuse as a defense - it won't last.