To make an accurate and logical assessment, the only comparison to make is Vitiate's lightning storm vs. Palpatine's regular lightning. The latter's ability to generate fleet-swallowing force storms and the fact that his regular lightning is probably better than Vitiate's regular lightning, are both irrelevant. Expect a response on my part later.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
To make an accurate and logical assessment, the only comparison to make is Vitiate's lightning storm vs. Palpatine's regular lightning. The latter's ability to generate fleet-swallowing force storms and the fact that his regular lightning is probably better than Vitiate's regular lightning, are both irrelevant. Expect a response on my part later.
You don't mention why they're irrelevant. Because there's no reason to make them irrelevant.
One needs supreme showings in Lightning to manage a Force Maelstrom, and force storm is basically a power infinitesimally stronger than Maelstrom.
They're not relevant because neither force storm nor maelstrom were used against Yoda, nor was this the point where Sidious is confirmed to master either. We're comparing what Yoda and Revan blocked, respectively, not who has mastery over all aspects and different techniques of lightning between Vitiate and Sidious. Therefore, the comparison to be made should be Vitiate's lightning storm (what he used on Revan) vs. Palpatine's regular lightning (what he used on Yoda), via feats/accolades/showings.
Furthermore, utilizing force maelstrom/force storm requires mastery as well as power (The latter being the ultimate culmination of both), unless you consider Malgus's lightning superior to Vitiate's.
Nice to see you find Malgus "supreme," though. 😉
Originally posted by The Truth
Grey Revan is the force united itself, he is beyond light and dark which is as far the Ones went.The Ones were limited by the division of the force, they knew it existed in unison but were only able to manifest as extreme concentrations of it individually.
Revan surpassed the ones by manifesting in a tangible form that was all aspects of the force simultaneously. That is why Grey Revan could do Force Sever storm, where he makes form storms that rain force sever beams.
FotJ Luke can't do anything like that.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66That is because there is nothing wrong with it, something you unfortunately refused to accept.
You are now literally repeating your same argument over again. 😬 [B]You are running out of evidence.Then I accept your concession. The structure of the two comics capture events every numerous seconds. Ignoring this and merely dismissing it as a supposition just makes you look bad. It makes you look even worse then when your argument concerning the OCW is also all speculative. I'm not going to waste my time with you when I already provided my argument yet you provided nothing.
[/b]
There is a large difference from the movies and your interpretations of such movies.[/b]
😱 I laughed so loud. You are completely speculating he gathered his energies as he walked around, despite having absolute no proof besides your own word. Meanwhile, when concerning the comics, there is blatant proof based on the comic layout, but you ignore that? Pathetic. And based on the video, Yoda pauses for 5 seconds in awe over what he is seeing. Otherwise, he would already have his hands up. He doesn't. He does the same thing earlier:[/b]
"Yoda and Dooku engaged in battle. First their powers in the Force were put to the test as Dooku attempted to crush the tiny Jedi Master with hurled debris. Yoda easily deflected such assaults, and even repulsed Dooku's Force Lightning attacks."
―The Complete Star Wars EncyclopediaI accept your concession. Your interpretation of the fight does not outweigh a C-Canon level book.
[/b]
You serious? Perhaps you want to get the novel. You can find it at a local book store. Below, once again, is the full feat:"It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor."
―Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith NovelizationSilver2467, creator of the Yoda and Darth Sidious Respect Threads, and one of the most respected debaters of all time, agrees with me on this. They threw a barrage of senate pods "against each other", hence the "hammers, battering rams, [and] catapult stones." I accept your concession here as well. Below are two quotes directly taken from his respect threads:
- - - - - -
[/b]
You amaze me in your double-standards. You said above a movie outweighs a novel, but now you use the novel when it supports your cause? Seriously? The fact he became "more settled" does not change the fact he had difficulty deflecting it, but rather now he was getting used to such difficulty. The novel doesn't contradict my previous statement either, which is that based on what is shown, Yoda struggles at the end of both lightning bursts. Yes, this is an opinion, but it is an opinion based on an observation that is not contradicted by anything else.[/b]
Not necessarily true. You are basing your argument off of Yoda's facial features. Meanwhile, a higher source states Darth Sidious did indeed eventually overload Yoda's defenses, not the other way around. The new Databanks also support me on this."Darth Sidious overwhelmed Yoda with the destructive energy of the dark side, and the Jedi Master fled Coruscant."
―http://www.starwars.com/databank/emperor-palpatine-darth-sidiousAnd then even the Kid's Scholastic novel states that Yoda was eventually overwhelmed and couldn't hold it either as more lightning build up, despite you claiming Yoda would have got more powerful as time increased.
"But Palpatine didn't stop; the Force lightning came in a steady crackle, building more and more, until neither of them could hold it any longer, and the blast knocked them both out of the pod."
―Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith; Scholastic BookHe told me earlier in chat he would, though now he says "but I'm RP'ing on SWTOR forums 🙁." So wait a little bit longer and see what happens. [/B]
1/2. Concerning the comics what you provided is inadequate, it is not only supposition, but it is from an inferior source. It is inadequate proof and therefore I am not obliged to provide a counter argument.
3. If you want to assume that then fine, but unfortunately that supposition is no more valid than mine. But the fact is Yoda did have time to gather power in that situation, whether you believe he did or not, so it cannot be used as a definitive example of a situation in which Yoda did not have time to gather he power and still instantly achieved powerful feats. Because in this situation he did, so my point still stands.
Laugh all you want, but again your proof is inadequate.
P.S. The fact that Yoda didn't have his hands up proves nothing at all, you don't need to have your hands up to gather energy lol.
4. Aside from the fact that you are effectively debunking your own argument there, that is I'm afraid an invalid point. You'd think that would be obvious considering that I used a similar quote that described Yoda deflecting Dooku's lightning easily in my OP.
Anyway, allow me to explain. It is true that Yoda deflected Dooku's attacks easily because it was well within his power, the guy can lift entire armies, lifting some boulders would have required a fraction of his Force energy. But that doesn't change the fact he struggle to gather these energies, as he always does in a combat situation. The fact that Yoda is old does not change the fact that he is more than capable of handling himself in battle.
And lol yes its C-Canon i.e. inferior to G-Canon movies. Please again, for the third time explain Yoda's obvious signs of exertion other than "that's your interpretation" - because its not, its what happened. But I don't why I'm asking, because the only reason your failing to answer this question is because you can't, because it conflicts with your argument.
5. Well, as much as I respect Silver2467, I disagree with you both. And what you have highlighted proves nothing. Look at the scene, or rather listen to it. Here that? That is the sound of "hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor."
It is the sound of the pods Sidious is launching, colliding with those below as Yoda tries to evade them. It makes no sense in regards to the plot and the environment that Yoda would be throwing pods back. The plot because it was showing Sidious' overdramatised superiority and power, and the environment because Yoda lacked the high ground to lift and hurl pods.
6. No, actually, I was specifically very clear in what I said to point out that I am not contradicting myself. Official sources state that the novel is canon unless it conflicts with events in the movie, in which case the movie always takes superiority. This quote I posted aligns with the movie just fine, unless you have a reason that it doesn't?
Anyway, the fact that he became more settled indicates that it got easier for him to deflect it as time went on, whereas you argued the opposite. The fact that Yoda can still seen to be struggling at the end of the lightning burst only indicates he needs even more time that that to become completely settled - time one should note he had against Sidious.
But that still doesn't change the fact that he in the end deflected it easily. As stated by a canonical source that interestingly you choose to ignore.
7. Facial features is just one part of the puzzle. The other more important feature is the distance of the lightining, at first it starts up right in Yoda's face to the point where he is physically recoiling from it, whereas Sidious is moving forward. This is a clear indicator that Yoda's tutanimis is failing as the kinetic force is taking its toll.
After that Yoda gets his second wind and begins pushing the energy back towards Sidious, and no longer has to recoil. Instead it is Sidious recoiling and as it zoom's out we can see Yoda has concentrated the energy almost completely, reinforced by the fact it no longer has kinetic Force.
And that is exactly what happens against Dooku, his hand goes back, and then it goes forward again.
Again I'm not going to try to use this as a precedence to state that Yoda > Sidious. That's a whole other debate and unnessary, all that is important is that Yoda started off struggling, and got more and more confident. Which reinforces the fact that Yoda struggles to gather his energies due to age, proven by the fact he struggles against Dooku's TK in AoTC despite it being well within his power, and lesser Force Users pulling off such feats with ease. Though I would point out the databank doesn't exactly disprove Yoda's superiority over Yoda, considering that Yoda lost because 1. he lost the high ground 2. he was out of energy. Both a result of Sidious' destructive power.
And yes like I said, he's doing something constructive.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
He simply surpasses the Sith Emperor in every feasible way.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
He has incapacitated and killed more powerful Force users with lightning;
Originally posted by Beniboybling
he has generated far larger Force storms
Originally posted by Beniboybling
and has dispatched his dark side energies across a far greater radius.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Now one may argue that this is unfair, as the Sith Emperor has never been in a position where he would need to kill a Force user or conjure a Force Storm. However I would retort to the first that the Sith Emperor required a Force Maelstrom to incapacitate the Jedi Strike Team, and a further blast of powerful energy to render them fully unconscious.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yet with a single blast Sidious was has show himself capable of reducing three dark side prophets to ash,
Darth Malgus, at one point, eliminated 3 Jedi with a single burst of lightning. I am not sure what became of these Jedi but it would not be a pretty sight.
Darth Nyriss would have reduced Scourge and Surik to ash with her lightning storm but she was stopped.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
and in a weakened state a single gout was capable of incapacitating Leia (after being trained as a Jedi), seriously wounding Empatojayos Brand, and killing another trained Force User. One would think therefore that if the Sith Emperor’s lightning truly was more potent, he would have would have been able to incapacitate and render unconscious the Jedi Strike Team with something far less potent that a Force Maelstorm coupled with a Force Blast - some of the most potent demonstrations of Sith Lightning.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Furthermore Sidious’ ability to overwhelm Force deflection/absorption with Force lightning is considerably more impressive than the Sith Emperor’s.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
The Sith Emperor had blasts of Force lightning capably deflected by Revan, yet Sidious’ lightning was enough to bend Mace Windu’s lightsaber back into his face to the point where he was choking on ozone, with Windu remarking that it was beyond Vaapad.
Sidious unleashed storm of lightning on Mace. It wasn't a casual burst.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
This being Mace mother-#%3$ing Windu using a form designed to absorb and reflect dark side attacks such as this, and yet even he was overwhelmed. And in terms of when one does have Vaapad, look no further than Yoda, Yoda’s blade was slapped right of out his hand with a single shock. Revan’s was not - do the math.
Emperor Vitiate's apprentice (Exal Kressh) overwhelmed lightsaber-augmented defenses of Darth Thanaton with a single burst of lightning, disintegrating his lightsaber in the process. It can be asserted with confidence that Emperor Vitiate can do better then her in this respect.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And to the second I would retort that if the Sith Emperor in all his one thousand years of study had mastered the Force Storm, he would have most certainly used it. It was definitely a power the Sith Emperor would have been aware of, on top of 1,000+ years of study dedicating to uncovering the secrets of the dark side, the Sith Emperor actually had the Darkstaff in his possession. An immensely powerful dark side artifact that could, after consuming a vast reservoir of energy, conjure a Force Storm. So if the Sith Emperor had knowledge of the ability, why did he not wield it? Would that not have made him easily capable of crushing the Republic without even leaving Dromund Kaas? Of easily committing the mass genocide necessary to enact his final ritual as opposed to the time -consuming and carefully laid plans he favoured instead? One would fully expect it would. The only explanation is that he simply was not powerful enough to harness such power, yet Darth Sidious was, and then some.
- Emperor Vitiate have not been demonstrated to choke an opponent to death. Should we assume that he cannot perform this action?
- Emperor Vitiate defeated a Sith Strike Team led by Darth Lokess with some kind of dark sorcery. Should we assume that he cannot repeat this action?
Your assumption is flawed again, Beni.
You should blame lack of exploration of Emperor's talents on PIS, instead of doubting the character's capabilities.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
All in all this is more than sufficient proof to demonstrate that Sidious is at the very least very much in the Sith Emperor's league and at most notably superior to him. The former being all that is necessary to demonstrate Yoda as vastly superior to Revan.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5SkNrWSk5M&t=1m13s
Not true.Yoda > Jedi Strike Team led by Tol Braga?
Really? Emperor created storms with his dark side practices that engulfed an entire planet (i.e. Dromund Kaas).
Emperor Vitiate's apprentice (Exal Kressh) filled an entire section of a Space Station with her powers at one point during her confrontation with Darth Thanaton, destroying many objects in the process. It can be asserted with confidence that Emperor Vitiate can do better then her, should he try.
Force Maelstrom is an extension of Force (Lightning) Storm, no?
I am confident that Darth Nyriss and Darth Malgus can match this feat. And Emperor Vitiate is stated to be "infinitely" better then Darth Nyriss in this matter.
Darth Malgus, at one point, eliminated 3 Jedi with a single burst of lightning. I am not sure what became of these Jedi but it would not be a pretty sight.
Darth Nyriss would have reduced Scourge and Surik to ash with her lightning storm but she was stopped.
Each member of the Jedi Strike Team led by Tol Braga have been officially stated to be among the strongest and most resolute Jedi of the Order. It is obvious that lot of firepower would be required to incapacitate a Strike Team of this caliber. On top of this, Emperor Vitiate decided to use these Jedi as his pwns and did not destroy them. So it is likely that Emperor Vitiate was holding back otherwise he would have destroyed these Jedi (burned them to ash or something).
???
Revan managed to deflect only casual bursts of lightning from Emperor. More notably, even a single (casual) bolt from Emperor Vitiate was forceful enough to stop such a powerful Jedi Master's advance. And when Emperor Vitiate was struck by one of his casual bolts deflected back to him by Revan, it send Emperor Vitiate sliding back several meters from his original position.
Sidious unleashed storm of lightning on Mace. It wasn't a casual burst.
Your point is flawed. See above.
Emperor Vitiate's apprentice (Exal Kressh) overwhelmed lightsaber-augmented defenses of Darth Thanaton with a single burst of lightning, disintegrating his lightsaber in the process. It can be asserted with confidence that Emperor Vitiate can do better then her in this respect.
Emperor Vitiate would have acquired mastery of lot of talents/applications of the Force since he spent lot of time for hone his talents in the dark side. Now, since he have been officially depicted demonstrating a dozen talents, should we assume that he is not capable of performing additional actions?
- Emperor Vitiate have not been demonstrated to choke an opponent to death. Should we assume that he cannot perform this action?
- Emperor Vitiate defeated a Sith Strike Team led by Darth Lokess with some kind of dark sorcery. Should we assume that he cannot repeat this action?
Your assumption is flawed again, Beni.
You should blame lack of exploration of Emperor's talents on PIS, instead of doubting the character's capabilities.
According to the legends, Emperor Vitiate is the most powerful Force-user ever. He certainly have lot more to him then is known at the moment, he is stated to have explored the most uncharted depths of the dark side. He have demonstrated the capability to discipline thousands of Sith for thousands of years, such magnitude of influence requires unprecedented command of the Force and power.
1. Yes Yoda surpasses everyone in the Jedi Strike Team, canonically.
2. Incorrect, he infused the atmosphere with the dark side that lead to naturally occurring lightning storms.
3. Yeah I'm sure she did.
4. Your point being?
5. On what grounds? Nyriss couldn't even reduce non-Force sensitives to ash in the presence of a DS nexus. And as I have already told you, the only reason Nyriss may have been able to vaporise Surik and Scourge was because their barriers were down - they were exhausted and therefore defenseless - the same applies to herself.
6. As was Leia. Nor does the sheer disparity between these displays accurately match the disparity between the Force powers of the Jedi Strike Team and the rest of the Jedi Sidious injured/killed. And the fact that he may have been "holding back" does not change the fact that he requires immense amounts of energy to achieve something that Sidious could probably have accomplished with a burst of chain lightning. Simply put he requires more power to pull of comparable feats, his intentions are totally irrelevant.
7. The point being made here is that you need Vaapad on an extremely high level to be able to deflect any of Sidious' lightning, even a casual burst considering such a burst blew Yoda's lightsaber right of his hand. On the other hand the Sith Emperor's lightining can be deflected with a lightsaber. Indeed need I add that the Hero of Tython and even Tol Braga were able to resist a full blow Force Storm with their lightsabers?
Indeed take a look at this. And then compare that to this.
The distance is practically the same, the intensity of the blast is practically the same. And yet Sidious' blast is more powerful, against a more powerful Force User.
Good enough for you?
8. A young apprentice level Darth Thanaton hardly comes close to the venerable powers of Master Yoda, or the Windu's mastery over Vaapad. The fact that the Sith Emperor failed to achieve this effect against Revan, the Hero of Tython and Tol Braga indicates he is incapable.
9. Yes, because of what you just quoted. Simply put if the Sith Emperor had mastered the Force Storm, we would know about it.
10. According to canon Sidious is, has achieved and been described as the following:
Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.
--Taken From Vader: The Ultimate Guide
Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
--Taken from The New Essential Chronology
Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil to ever use the Sith power bides his time.
--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary
It quickly became clear to Luke that this decrepit and seemingly defenceless old man was masterfully adept in the ways of the Dark Side of the Force. Indeed, as Vader had warned, the Emperor had become the Dark Side’s most powerful expression.
--Taken from the Dark Empire endnotes
Even Ulic Qel-Droma would be envious of Palpatine. He had succeeded where all others had failed in taming the Dark Side.
--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook
When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered – in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane – only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the strength of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge.
--Taken from The Dark Side Sourcebook
The Sith have waited millennium for the birth of one who is powerful enough to return them from hiding. Darth Sidious is that one – the Sith’s revenge on the Jedi Order for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force.
--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary
Darth Sidious proved to be the grim culmination of a thousand years of Sith philosophy and teachings.
--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force
Now Tenebrous touched upon his apprentice’s powers of foresight, which were also vastly more developed than Tenebrous had believed. For a moment, Tenebrous found his perception cast far forward in time – to Plagueis’ own death at the hands of his apprentice, who was himself only visible as a smear of darkness...
A shadow!
--Taken from The Tenebrous Way
To most eyes the man in those robes of rough cloth was unremarkable, just another being making his way in the universe. But to those who could feel the Force he was anything but ordinary. To them, he was a dark sun blazing with power that was simultaneously hypnotizing and terrifying to behold.
--Taken from Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy
And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Through seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness.
A black hole in the Force.
--Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation
Depowered lampdisks were rings of ghostly gray floating in the gloom. The shimmering jewelscape of Coruscant haloed the knife-edged shadow of the chair.
This was the office of the Chancellor.
Within the chair’s shadow sat another shadow: deeper, darker, formless and impenetrable, an abyssal umbra so profound that it drained light from the room around it.
And from the city. And the planet.
And the galaxy.
--Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation
Known dark nexuses included the twisted tree-cave on Dagobah, Halagad Ventor’s hermitage on Trinta, and the “stain” of dark side energy that hovered over Endor following the defeat of the Emperor.
--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
The key to Luke’s turning is the moment when he and Leia realise that the Emperor is no longer defined by his physical form, but has become a chaotic nexus of dark energies that swell and burst open the fabric of space, tearing apart everything in the vicinity, human and machine.
--Taken from the Dark Empire endnotes
Only Palpatine has been able to spread his darkness completely and totally over and entire galaxy.
--Taken from the Dark Empire Sourcebook
Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure.
--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook
Sometimes I wonder why I even bother humouring you.
Originally posted by NephthysConsidering the ease at which they were fired, I find it unlikely that the disparity between the bursts was that great. And if I recall Revan deflected three bolts.
Revan only deflected single bolts of lightning. Sidious blew Yoda's lightsaber out of his hand with a sustained burst of multiple bolts.
P.S. Yoda lost his lightsaber immediately.
P.P.S. There are also plenty of other examples.
Theres still a big difference between a single bolt and a full stream of continuous lightning. The second has a lot more force behind it since it has a constant amount of pressure and is in general a lot more powerful. Revan deflects bolts one after each other. Not the same. Also Yoda was a lot closer, so the force would be greater.
Also its likely Yoda was off-guard or tired or something. Earlier in the script he deflects Sidious' lightning no problem.
Originally posted by NephthysIt was not a full stream of continuous lightning, it was a one-handed blast of which I second was enough to throw Yoda's lightsaber from his grip.
Theres still a big difference between a single bolt and a full stream of continuous lightning. The second has a lot more force behind it since it has a constant amount of pressure and is in general a lot more powerful. Revan deflects bolts one after each other. Not the same. Also Yoda was a lot closer, so the force would be greater.Also its likely Yoda was off-guard or tired or something. Earlier in the script he deflects Sidious' lightning no problem.
Also I assume that because lightning travels at incredibly fast speeds that these bolts were deflected simultaneously. Or so it would appear to the human eye - especially considering the Sith Emperor unleashed the bolts all at once.
Script =/= canon if not on screen and if you look at the scene itself Yoda is in the ready position. He should have been no more exhausted that Revan considering he has been assaulted by the Sith Emperor's mental attack before Revan unleashed an immense amount of energy.
Regardless, attempt to deride these feats all you wish. But the buffers that are Yoda > Revan and the Sith Emperor was sitting right on top of a DS nexus will absorb all the impact. And we haven't even gotten started on the proof that the Sith Emperor's lightning is considerably superior to Yoda's. Which would be necessary to support this argument. So good luck with that too.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
It was not a full stream of continuous lightning, it was a one-handed blast of which I second was enough to throw Yoda's lightsaber from his grip.Also I assume that because lightning travels at incredibly fast speeds that these bolts were deflected simultaneously. Or so it would appear to the human eye - especially considering the Sith Emperor unleashed the bolts all at once.
Script =/= canon if not on screen and if you look at the scene itself Yoda is in the ready position. He should have been no more exhausted that Revan considering he has been assaulted by the Sith Emperor's mental attack before Revan unleashed an immense amount of energy.
Regardless, attempt to deride these feats all you wish. But the buffers that are Yoda > Revan and the Sith Emperor was sitting right on top of a DS nexus will absorb all the impact. And we haven't even gotten started on the proof that the Sith Emperor's lightning is considerably superior to Yoda's. Which would be necessary to support this argument. So good luck with that too.
The lightning was a stream. It was connected from the blade to his hand and was continuously blasting. It was not a single bolt like Vitiates was. And Sidious adds the second hand as Yoda is being disarmed. The lightning of his second hand connects before the lightsaber goes from his grip.
They were unleashed in quick succession, but were far enough apart that Revan batted one aside, ducked the second then deflected the third. So either Revan is just that fast or they were not almost simultaneous.
Almost anything from Lucas is considered G canon. Maybe not over on your forum, but here the script is taken as accurate. It explains how Sidious was disarmed at least. And in the script Yoda was deflecting Sidious' lightning with his lightsaber. And Revan wouldn't be more exhausted. Yoda is much older, had recently been knocked out and uses Ataru which is known to expend a lot of energy and fatigue practitioners swiftly. And Yoda had just had a saber battle with Darth Mofo-ing Sidious, which would obviously require Yoda to draw on a lot of energy to pull off. Revan by comparison had barely had to physically exert himself at all and his battle so far had been brief.
Isn't your own argument here against Ant that Yoda takes a while to build up his full strength? Isn't it possible it just took Yoda a second to get into the groove?
I wasn't aware it had to be proved that Vitiate's lightning is superior to Yoda's. It's hardly his strongest suit. Also I bite my thumb at that nexus argument.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
1. Yes Yoda surpasses everyone in the Jedi Strike Team, canonically.
Yoda was a legendary Jedi Master and stronger then most in his connection with the Force. (Official Databank)
Stronger then most? Yes. Stronger then lets say HoT? Not necessarily.
In addition, it would have been harder to subdue an entire Strike Team of some of the Jedi finest then just Yoda; Emperor Vitiate had to overcome defensive abilities of 4 powerful Jedi (simultaneously).
Originally posted by Beniboybling
2. Incorrect, he infused the atmosphere with the dark side that lead to naturally occurring lightning storms.
Emperor Vitiate performed rituals to consistently influence the entire environment of Dromund Kaas. Those lightning storms are artificial, product of sorcery of Emperor Vitiate.
Emperor Vitiate was essentially doing this:
Still in safekeeping on Aborah were texts and holocrons that recounted the deeds and abilities of Sith Masters who, so it was said and written, had been able to summon wind or rain or fracture the skies with conjured lightning. (Star Wars: Darth Plagueis)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
3. Yeah I'm sure she did.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
4. Your point being?
Armed with incalculable powers of corruption, the Emperor easily defeats the Knight, Master Braga, and their fellow Jedi, twisting them all to the dark side. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
5. On what grounds? Nyriss couldn't even reduce non-Force sensitives to ash in the presence of a DS nexus. And as I have already told you, the only reason Nyriss may have been able to vaporise Surik and Scourge was because their barriers were down - they were exhausted and therefore defenseless - the same applies to herself.
Scourge and Meetra handled casual bursts of lightning from Nyriss, they did not stood a chance against her signature burst. Nyriss had superior defensive abilities then Scourge and Meetra, Nyriss's normal shield would be as good as that of Scourge and Meetra and it wasn't good enough to withstand her own signature burst. End result was Nyriss getting reduced in to a pile of ash by her own power. This is sufficient indication of what would have become of Scourge and Meetra if they had been subjected to signature burst from Nyriss.
In-fact, I am inclined to believe that Scourge and Meetra had superior defensive abilities then the 3 prophets whom Sidious reduced to ash.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
6. As was Leia. Nor does the sheer disparity between these displays accurately match the disparity between the Force powers of the Jedi Strike Team and the rest of the Jedi Sidious injured/killed. And the fact that he may have been "holding back" does not change the fact that he requires immense amounts of energy to achieve something that Sidious could probably have accomplished with a burst of chain lightning. Simply put he requires more power to pull of comparable feats, his intentions are totally irrelevant.
FYI: Emperor Vitiate "easily" subdued the Jedi Strike Team led by Tol Braga.
Comparable feats? Emperor Vitiate's capability to easily subdue a Strike Team of some of the Jedi finest with lightning powers is superior to anything Darth Sidious have demonstrated in single combat with lightning powers. Keep in mind that if Emperor Vitiate had destructive intent, that Jedi Strike Team would have been toast.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
7. The point being made here is that you need Vaapad on an extremely high level to be able to deflect any of Sidious' lightning, even a casual burst considering such a burst blew Yoda's lightsaber right of his hand.
Yoda demonstrated signs of aging.
In-fact, Galen Marek puts both Mace and Yoda to shame with his performance against Sidious in this respect. And no! Galen did not perish under pressure from Sidious's power; he willingly became one with the Force to save his allies from death.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
On the other hand the Sith Emperor's lightining can be deflected with a lightsaber. Indeed need I add that the Hero of Tython and even Tol Braga were able to resist a full blow Force Storm with their lightsabers?Indeed take a look at this. And then compare that to this.
The distance is practically the same, the intensity of the blast is practically the same. And yet Sidious' blast is more powerful, against a more powerful Force User.
Good enough for you?
Jedi are disarmed, lightsabers destroyed.
And Emperor Vitiate did not even had destructive intent in this battle.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
8. A young apprentice level Darth Thanaton hardly comes close to the venerable powers of Master Yoda, or the Windu's mastery over Vaapad. The fact that the Sith Emperor failed to achieve this effect against Revan, the Hero of Tython and Tol Braga indicates he is incapable.
Revan knew that his lightsaber-augmented defenses would not work against FLS of Emperor Vitiate, this is why he chose to rely upon his raw power and mastery of Tutaminis to handle such kind of power. And even his best defensive options didn't work.
In the nutshell, when Emperor Vitiate goes all-out with his lightning, all hope is lost for the unfortunate opponent.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
9. Yes, because of what you just quoted. Simply put if the Sith Emperor had mastered the Force Storm, we would know about it.
An official hint have been provided in Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia, that Emperor Vitiate explored the most sinister and uncharted depths of the dark side.
This hint leaves ample room for creative liberties for the character.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
10. According to canon Sidious is, has achieved and been described as the following:Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.
--Taken From Vader: The Ultimate Guide
Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
--Taken from The New Essential Chronology
Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil to ever use the Sith power bides his time.
--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary
It quickly became clear to Luke that this decrepit and seemingly defenceless old man was masterfully adept in the ways of the Dark Side of the Force. Indeed, as Vader had warned, the Emperor had become the Dark Side’s most powerful expression.
--Taken from the Dark Empire endnotes
Even Ulic Qel-Droma would be envious of Palpatine. He had succeeded where all others had failed in taming the Dark Side.
--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook
When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered – in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane – only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the strength of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge.
--Taken from The Dark Side Sourcebook
The Sith have waited millennium for the birth of one who is powerful enough to return them from hiding. Darth Sidious is that one – the Sith’s revenge on the Jedi Order for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force.
--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary
Darth Sidious proved to be the grim culmination of a thousand years of Sith philosophy and teachings.
--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force
Now Tenebrous touched upon his apprentice’s powers of foresight, which were also vastly more developed than Tenebrous had believed. For a moment, Tenebrous found his perception cast far forward in time – to Plagueis’ own death at the hands of his apprentice, who was himself only visible as a smear of darkness...
A shadow!
--Taken from The Tenebrous Way
To most eyes the man in those robes of rough cloth was unremarkable, just another being making his way in the universe. But to those who could feel the Force he was anything but ordinary. To them, he was a dark sun blazing with power that was simultaneously hypnotizing and terrifying to behold.
--Taken from Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy
And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Through seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness.
A black hole in the Force.
--Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation
Depowered lampdisks were rings of ghostly gray floating in the gloom. The shimmering jewelscape of Coruscant haloed the knife-edged shadow of the chair.
This was the office of the Chancellor.
Within the chair’s shadow sat another shadow: deeper, darker, formless and impenetrable, an abyssal umbra so profound that it drained light from the room around it.
And from the city. And the planet.
And the galaxy.--Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation
Known dark nexuses included the twisted tree-cave on Dagobah, Halagad Ventor’s hermitage on Trinta, and the “stain” of dark side energy that hovered over Endor following the defeat of the Emperor.
--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
The key to Luke’s turning is the moment when he and Leia realise that the Emperor is no longer defined by his physical form, but has become a chaotic nexus of dark energies that swell and burst open the fabric of space, tearing apart everything in the vicinity, human and machine.
--Taken from the Dark Empire endnotes
Only Palpatine has been able to spread his darkness completely and totally over and entire galaxy.
--Taken from the Dark Empire Sourcebook
Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure.
--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook
Emperor Vitiate have been described as the embodiment of the dark side itself, almost godlike avatar of the dark side, all-powerful, and most powerful Force-user ever. This is hype at its finest.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sometimes I wonder why I even bother humouring you.