Revan's Raw Power Comparison

Originally posted by Nephthys
We already discussed it and I do not want to do so again so soon.

Though looking at that holonet page it does seem to confirm that Vitiate caused the storms on DK. So it isn't mere hearsay, Beniboy.

We as in you and me. 😬

Originally posted by Selenial
No, believe it or not it's a term for people who do anything to defend a character they like. Even try call sources outdated, despite that being explicitly stated to not be the way canon works.

To disregard higher canon sources just "'cause reasons"

Who refuse to even read a thread because they know their wrong.

I'm not Legend. He takes it too far.

God, I'm reading it already. I skimmed it when you posted it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not Legend. He takes it too far.

God, I'm reading it already. I skimmed it when you posted it.

Well you consider Vitiate greater than Sidious.

So unless you accidentally missed like the first four quotes.

Thus I am a fanboy. Also my official position is that they're equals. Get it right.

As I said, its nothing I haven't seen before. Nothing conclusive.

Again, seeing as sourcebooks only cover up to their era, the first 4 quotes override Vitiates, and that seems pretty conclusive to me.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I have. It's called Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan. 😉

Wrong wrong wrong. "The Emperor unleashed three more bolts in quick succession. Revan batted the first aside with his lightsaber, ducked the second, then deflected the third back in the direction of its source." How the ferk is that 3-pronged lightning? He unleashes 3 seperate attacks in rapid succession. How can you respond to the same attack 3 times? It's nonsensical that Revan would deal with each prong of lightning individually one after each other if they were part of the same stream of lightning. You are making absolutely no sense and displaying no understanding of the source material. I say good day sir! :<

Wrong again: Here we can see Yoda's lightsaber still in his hand and Sidious attacking with both hands.

No one is that fast.

The rules of canon her are based upon the official rules of canon. A good place to familiarise yourself with these is the Wookieepedia page on canon which states: "G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon."

Theres no indication that either took much out of Revan. Vitiate himself displayed no weariness from attempting that mental assault and it was so short I doubt either had to use much energy in the exchange. And the explosion Revan caused isn't stated to utilise too much power. Yoda's efforts would tire him out a lot more, since he uses an extremely energy-intensive fighting style and is old as balls. Revan undoubtedly has superior stamina than Yoda does, motions to Star Forge battle. In either case, I'm referring to physical tiredness here, which is what would determine whether Yoda could keep his hand on his lightsaber. Yoda was obviously more physically tired from all his flipping around and jumping to avoid platforms.

Yoda is no necessarily superior in all aspects of the Force than Revan. And I am totally unconvinced Vitiate was amped by a nexus.

Well Vitiate's lightning is superior to Sidious'. Sidious focuses on other aspects like lightsaber combat while Vitiate has had infinitely more time to hone his mastery of Force powers.

If theres any proof Kaas is a nexus no one has ever provided it, nor proof that Vitiate was drawing on it. And if Vitiate did that then he wouldn't have needed to specifically create a nexus in the Dark Temple, would he?

However considering it is again, not possible or anywhere shown that lightning can leave the user's fingers i.e. not be some kind of stream (I'm sure this is the case with real lightning as well) each one would have been a blast of lightning akin to the blast sent at Yoda. So it is in that respect very similar. And the disparity to small to make note of.

2. Ah missed that. However notice how Yoda is blocking one part with his hand and one part with his lightsaber. So his lightsaber would be effectively taking the brunt of a one-handed stream.

3. I'm aware of the official rules of canon, and I'm also aware that never has it been stated the script to be canon. Indeed if I recall the script states that Sidious was losing, which is ultimately not the direction they decided to take. Again script = non-canon. A helpful resource perhaps but still non-canonical.

4. There is no indication that Ataru took anything out of Yoda either, we just assume it did cause Ataru. Likewise mental attacks and Oneness consume large amounts of energy. Not that I'm saying Yoda was less tired, what I'm saying is the fact that Revan had exerted himself, combined with the fact that Yoda is a superior Force User, makes up for Yoda's own exhaustion.

5. I am not going to push the fact that the Sith Emperor was amped by the nexus, it makes little difference, but considering this is his throne room and the planet is bathed in the DS is a strong possibility

6. You keep saying that but offer no proof, so I'm inclined to ignore that completely. Sidious' superiority in Force Lightining is self-evident, and as a raw power feat that even untrained Force Users have been known to pull off in fits of rage, does not require much in the way of refinement.

And the fact that Sidious mastered the Force Maelstrom and the Force Storm demonstrates that he did not neglect this field of study at all. And despite the Sith Emperor having "infinitely more time" to hone his Force Powers Sidious still had time to master all known Force Powers in existence and create his own new ones.

To claim that Sidious put more time into lightsaber combat than Force Powers in general is a tad on the ridiculous side.

I'll close that point with this quote:

"The Sith grew past the use of lightsabers. But we continue to use them, if only to humiliate the Jedi."

--Darth Sidious.

Originally posted by Selenial
Again, seeing as sourcebooks only cover up to their era, the first 4 quotes override Vitiates, and that seems pretty conclusive to me.

Well you're welcome to your opinion.

Originally posted by Nephthys
We as in you and me. 😬

As to Vitiate being stronger than Sidious, I personally don't believe that, but I don't see anything wrong with believing it if you want to. The reasoning that Vitiate is the most powerful Force user ever because he is immortal and an encyclopedia quote written without knowledge of the Ones says so is beyond wanking though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This is hilarious.

Yes, it's so unimpressive that Vitiate was unable to disarm 4 Jedi at once. He's so inferior to Sidious. It's so unimpressive that he couldn't disarm the Hero of Tython while simultaneously blasting a huge area with Force Storm and keeping 3 other powerful Jedi in check. What a loser.

I don't believe there is anything stating Yoda is canonically superior to the HoT?

EDIT: Heck one might even argue that after the Sith Emperor cast the storm it was self-sufficient.

Do I even need to add that Yoda was more powerful than all of them and on top of that Sidious likely grew more powerful after that confrontation?

Originally posted by Nephthys
For all that you guys label us as fanboys, you seem very intolerant of the idea that Sidious and Yoda might have equals or superiors other than Luke.

At least we accept that they are not on level with the Ones lol.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Balanced out by the fact that said Jedi had to expend energy defending against that lightning storm? Lol.

EDIT: Heck one might even argue that after the Sith Emperor cast the storm it was self-sufficient.

Do I even need to add that Yoda was more powerful than all of them and on top of that Sidious likely grew more powerful after that confrontation?

I don't understand what you mean. Of course they were expending energy defending from the storm. Vitiate was still overpowering 4 Jedi at once (since Kira was pwned straight away). It's not unimpressive for him to have not blown all their lightsabers out of their hands since clearly he had to split his efforts across 4 opponents and a wide area.

Self-sufficient? Lolwuuuut? The energy needed for the lightning would need to come from somewhere, its not as if he created a miniature lightning cloud, loony toons style.

More powerful than all of them put together? I highly doubt that. And do I need to add that Vitiate defeated them casually and easily?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Wow, calling somebody a fanboy cause they disagree with your opinions. Because accepting that those who have been touted as the most powerful Jedi and Sith respectfully is so very very terrible. I'm not about to dispute canon to make you happy thanks.

At least we accept that they are not on level with the Ones lol.

I'm not calling anyone a fanboy, just suggesting that your flat refusal to tolerate different opinions makes calling us fanboys pretty lame.

Yes, Legend is kind of nuts.

Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]We already discussed it and I do not want to do so again so soon.

Though looking at that holonet page it does seem to confirm that Vitiate caused the storms on DK. So it isn't mere hearsay, Beniboy.

Anyway the SWTORE describes it as rumour, my point being that something that is in some sources described as just hearsay is hardly going to be a feat that such elaborate conclusions that Legend has drawn can be made, for example that the Sith Emperor is actually a glorified weather man.

"Power hungry, the Emperor spent great energy discovering and perfecting esoteric rites of darkness – rituals that wrecked the atmosphere of Dromund Kaas, transforming the ionosphere into a swirling electric storm."

Obviously though its not something he needs to maintain, its a result of him effing up the atmosphere.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
What does the HoloNet say? Can't be asked to check.

Anyway the SWTORE describes it as rumour, my point being that something that is in some sources described as just hearsay is hardly going to be a feat that such elaborate conclusions that Legend has drawn can be made, for example that the Sith Emperor is actually a glorified weather man.

Now, more than one thousand years later, the Empire has returned to the galaxy – bringing full-scale war with it. The Sith have forced a great number of systems into submission in the war, however Dromund Kaas remains home to both the Emperor and his Dark Council. Even though the planet is bristling with the energy of the dark side, it is the Imperial military that has the largest visible presence on Dromund Kaas.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't understand what you mean. Of course they were expending energy defending from the storm. Vitiate was still overpowering 4 Jedi at once (since Kira was pwned straight away). It's not unimpressive for him to have not blown all their lightsabers out of their hands sine clearly he had to split his efforts across 4 opponents and a wide area.

Self-sufficient? Lolwuuuut? The energy needed for the lightning would need to come from somewhere, its not as if he created a miniature lightning cloud, loony toons style.

More powerful than all of them put together? I high doubt that. And do I need to add that Vitiate defeated them casually and easily?

Indeed the fact that the Sith Emperor had to call down said storm indicates that without that distraction, he would have been unable to overwhelm Braga and the HoT with just successive bursts of lighting.

I am aware, allow me to explain in detail. It seems to me that the Sith Emperor gathered a large amount of energy together and then expended it the direction of the Jedi. That expended energy releasing itself in the form of a lightning storm which once spent, would subside.

I reach this conclusion because unlike in the in-game version the Sith Emperor is not shown to be constantly pouring energy into it. Instead he's free to zap his attackers, caught in the storm, with blasts of lightning. I am not inclined to believe that the Sith Emperor was somehow magically transposing his power into that storm without any kind of gesture/visible flow - as that would contradict the established laws of the universe.

So, what that means, is that the Sith Emperor could put all his focus/energy into those lightning attacks. The argument could be made that the lighting storm would have weakened him, but considering how powerful he is I highly doubt that. All the Force Storm therefore really does it make his feat less impressive.

Two of them were Jedi Knights, a calibre of Force user Yoda can bat aside with ease (see Asajj Ventress) Tol Braga was a scholar but one devoted to diplomacy, not combat. The Hero of Tython may admittedly tip the scales but then again he hadn't reached the totality of his power - but the rest of them are pretty small time compared to Yoda.

I'm not calling anyone a fanboy, just suggesting that your flat refusal to tolerate different opinions makes calling us fanboys pretty lame.

Yes, Legend is kind of nuts.

So yeah, let's not play that card.

On the other hand I'm making an effort to engage with you people and acknowledge your opinions.

Nor do I recall ever calling you a fanboy, the only fanboy I see here is Legend and DarthAnt who seem intent on putting every Tom, Dick and Harry in the TOR era on level with Yoda and Sidious. Don't even get me started on the One's.

However I am heartened by the fact you don't share all their opinions.

You can use the Force without gesturing or there being any visible indication of doing anything.

I'll reply to the rest after lunch.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You can use the Force without gesturing or there being any visible indication of doing anything.

I'll reply to the rest after lunch.

And at the very least would be visible.

Noting of course that initially he uses gestures and the energy is visible, this sets a precedence for him dispensing this energy in such a way.

Originally posted by Selenial
You really are trolling us aren't you... Like you seriously have to be either mentally retarded or trolling us. I get you're not English, and it obviously doesn't come easy to you (Judging by your use of the language) so that's all well and good, but we've explained how your own quotes aren't saying what you think, and you still only come out with incredibly annoying attempts at claiming sources as out dated.

But fine by me, I'll put you down, for old times sake.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Basic TK attacks perhaps e.g. Force choke. But my understanding is that something that involves dispenses a large amount of raw energy would require gestures of some such.

And at the very least would be visible.

Noting of course that initially he uses gestures and the energy is visible, this sets a precedence for him dispensing this energy in such a way.

But the energy is never visible when someone uses a Force Storm in Swtor. It's not as if theres a big purple ray shooting up into the ceiling, the Sith gestures and lightning starts raining from the sky. Vitiate already gestured at the start of the fight, so it's plausible that he created the storm then maintained it while he multi-tasked on blasting the Hero back.

If by visible energy you mean his hands swirling with purple then it does that the whole time.

Also you seem to not realise that this would make the feat even more impressive.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But the energy is never visible when someone uses a Force Storm in Swtor. It's not as if theres a big purple ray shooting up into the ceiling, the Sith gestures and lightning starts raining from the sky. Vitiate already gestured at the start of the fight, so it's plausible that he created the storm then maintained it while he multi-tasked on blasting the Hero back.

If by visible energy you mean his hands swirling with purple then it does that the whole time.

Also you seem to not realise that this would make the feat even more impressive.

Clearly the Sith Emperor wields a higher variant here that he can summon and then move on to other things.

It makes it less impressive, because it just means the Sith Emperor needs even more energy to achieve that Sidious can do with less.

However it doesn't really make a difference, they are blocking the energy somehow, in this case they have to divide their energy up in to Force shields and lightsaber deflection, if it had been just the lightning bolt they would have been able to rededicate the energy from the Force shield and put it into the lightsaber deflection.

So we cannot claim "well if he wasn't summoning a Force storm he would have slapped them right down" - which itself begs the question of why he didn't do that in the first place...