Revan's Raw Power Comparison

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The Force Storm was coming down all around them, to avoid getting immediately zapped like the lesser members of the group did Tol Braga and the HoT would have had to use their Force shields to deflect/shield themselves from the lightning. This would have given them less energy to deal with the lighting blasts coming their way.

I still don't get it. If they're shielding the lightning they're shielding the lightning. Whether they're blocking it with their lightsabers or Force shield is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Indeed the fact that the Sith Emperor had to call down said storm indicates that without that distraction, he would have been unable to overwhelm Braga and the HoT with just successive bursts of lighting.

Jesus, who said he had to do anything? If he "had" to do anything he would have used his telepathy off the bat or charged up his big attack while they were talking or running towards him. It wasn't as if he was being pressed and he needed the storm to survive. The storm was probably just crowd control or whatever. Did Sidious "have" to kick Savage Oppress to get through his defense? Probably not. I'm not going to use it as an argument against Sidious' lighsaber skills just because he did it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I am aware, allow me to explain in detail. It seems to me that the Sith Emperor gathered a large amount of energy together and then expended it the direction of the Jedi. That expended energy releasing itself in the form of a lightning storm which once spent, would subside.

I reach this conclusion because unlike in the in-game version the Sith Emperor is not shown to be constantly pouring energy into it. Instead he's free to zap his attackers, caught in the storm, with blasts of lightning. I am not inclined to believe that the Sith Emperor was somehow magically transposing his power into that storm without any kind of gesture/visible flow - as that would contradict the established laws of the universe.

So, what that means, is that the Sith Emperor could put all his focus/energy into those lightning attacks. The argument could be made that the lighting storm would have weakened him, but considering how powerful he is I highly doubt that. All the Force Storm therefore really does it make his feat less impressive.

Er, no that would make his lightning all the more impressive. If the Emperor could casually create a storm that is able to knock out Kira, overpower and stun Leeha and Warren and drive Tol Braga back in a desperate defense for over a dozen seconds without any actual input from him...... then that is ****ing impressive as hell.

Otherwise I've responded to your reasoning above.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Two of them were Jedi Knights, a calibre of Force user Yoda can bat aside with ease (see Asajj Ventress) Tol Braga was a scholar but one devoted to diplomacy, not combat. The Hero of Tython may admittedly tip the scales but then again he hadn't reached the totality of his power - but the rest of them are pretty small time compared to Yoda.

Lolwut? Their title doesn't mean anything. Anakin and the HoT were Jedi Knights. Exar Kun was a padawan. These Jedi are stated to be "the most powerful", "the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the Order." These are not small time Jedi. They are no Yoda's, but put together their power is obviously equal to or more than his. Even though Yoda casually pwned Ventress, 4 Ventresses wouldn't be outclassed by him if you put their power together.

Braga may be a scholar but he was still able to duel a Dark Council member for several days straight. So don't underestimate his power and combat ability. Soderu used to be the greatest warrior in the Jedi Order in his day and Leeha was known to have never been defeated before. These are legit Jedi.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
This isn't a matter of opinion, its a question of right or wrong in all respects. And I certainly haven't seen anyone prefix their statements with the words "in my opinion" or "I believe" but rather "this is the case.

So yeah, let's not play that card.

On the other hand I'm making an effort to engage with you people and acknowledge your opinions.

Nor do I recall ever calling you a fanboy, the only fanboy I see here is Legend and DarthAnt who seem intent on putting every Tom, Dick and Harry in the TOR era on level with Yoda and Sidious. Don't even get me started on the One's.

However I am heartened by the fact you don't share all their opinions.

No, it's a matter of opinion. I guess not everyone felt they had to specifically state that though. Everything here is just us stating our perspectives on these characters.

Lol, you came over here to obliterate our opinions and educate us on the proper way of things. Not acknowledge us. How do you think that's going btw?

Ant only puts Revan on par with Dooku. Legend is a bit extreme but he means well and has some good points.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But the energy is never visible when someone uses a Force Storm in Swtor. It's not as if theres a big purple ray shooting up into the ceiling, the Sith gestures and lightning starts raining from the sky. Vitiate already gestured at the start of the fight, so it's plausible that he created the storm then maintained it while he multi-tasked on blasting the Hero back.

If by visible energy you mean his hands swirling with purple then it does that the whole time.

Also you seem to not realise that this would make the feat even more impressive.

Actually, they used to back close to launch and Beta, but it caused too much lag.

Used to have two AOE reticle for every Targeted AOE, just with Force Quake and Storm, the AOE reticles under the person had animations.

Besides, that's game mechanics.

Things that appear in cutscenes are not game mechanics.

lol

Originally posted by Nephthys
I still don't get it. If they're shielding the lightning they're shielding the lightning. Whether they're blocking it with their lightsabers or Force shield is irrelevant.

Jesus, who said he had to do anything? If he "had" to do anything he would have used his telepathy off the bat or charged up his big attack while they were talking or running towards him. It wasn't as if he was being pressed and he needed the storm to survive. The storm was probably just crowd control or whatever. Did Sidious "have" to kick Savage Oppress to get through his defense? Probably not. I'm not going to use it as an argument against Sidious' lighsaber skills just because he did it.

Er, no that would make his lightning all the more impressive. If the Emperor could casually create a storm that is able to knock out Kira, overpower and stun Leeha and Warren and drive Tol Braga back in a desperate defense for over a dozen seconds without any actual input from him...... then that is ****ing impressive as hell.

Otherwise I've responded to your reasoning above.

Lolwut? Their title doesn't mean anything. Anakin and the HoT were Jedi Knights. Exar Kun was a padawan. These Jedi are stated to be "the most powerful", "the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the Order." These are not small time Jedi. They are no Yoda's, but put together their power is obviously equal to or more than his. Even though Yoda casually pwned Ventress, 4 Ventresses wouldn't be outclassed by him if you put their power together.

Braga may be a scholar but he was still able to duel a Dark Council member for several days straight. So don't underestimate his power and combat ability. Soderu used to be the greatest warrior in the Jedi Order in his day and Leeha was known to have never been defeated before. These are legit Jedi.

No, it's a matter of opinion. I guess not everyone felt they had to specifically state that though. Everything here is just us stating our perspectives on these characters.

Lol, you came over here to obliterate our opinions and educate us on the proper way of things. Not acknowledge us. How do you think that's going btw?

Ant only puts Revan on par with Dooku. Legend is a bit extreme but he means well and has some good points.

So bringing up the fact that he was conjuring a Force Storm as well, regardless of whether he was channeling it throughout or not, is a moot point.

2. And who says he wasn't charging up a big attack while they were talking? That's a textbook tactic for pulling off big feats, but saying that would be speculative so I'm not going to go there.

Yes he could have used telepathy, but that would should theoretically have used just as much energy as a lightning attack, merely expressed in a different form.

Yes the storm was crowd control, but you'd think if he could overwhelm Braga and the HoT with just some bursts of lightning he would merely do so. With that kind of power there is no chance any of them would get close to him.

And of course if his lightning truly is superior to Sidious, he would be able to perform a chain lightning attack that strikes them all at once. At least that is what Sidious would have done, blast them with chain lightning and just keep applying pressure until they fall.

Not the Sith Emperor, he pulls out all the stops, Force Storm, Lightning burst and a Force blast just to finish them off.

3. We are dealing with some of the most powerful Force Users in mythos, all there attacks are impressive. So lets leave hype as an argument at the door.

4. Asajj Ventress has taken on and defeated knights of their caliber and master's who surpass them, she is no small time Sith, I see no evidence that suggests they surpassed her. Yoda slapped Ventress down like a punk. And while now 4 Ventress' combined wouldn't be outclassed by Yoda, Yoda would still surpass that power. Yoda is on Sidious' level remember, do you really think the combined power of 4 Ventress' could challenge Sidious? Heck why I am even asking this question they failed to take down the Sith Emperor of course they can't take down Sidious which means they'd fail against Yoda as well.

5. If its a matter of opinion then why is it that canonical statements are frequently made about this topic. Either you stronger or your weaker. End of. I'm not pretending to have all the answers but I do believe you are wrong. And one of us is. I mean really, you can't debate opinions, only facts.

And I'm sorry when did I say that? Stop putting words in my mouth, its rude and unconstructive. You totally unnecessarily called us out as fanboys when we could just continue having this discussion.

So what's it gonna be, a intelligent debate or a flame war? The latter seems to be a favourite on this site.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
1. Alright fair enough, I guess I have no choice but to accept Drew's rather quirky interpretation of Force Lightning.

However considering it is again, not possible or anywhere shown that lightning can leave the user's fingers i.e. not be some kind of stream (I'm sure this is the case with real lightning as well) each one would have been a blast of lightning akin to the blast sent at Yoda. So it is in that respect very similar. And the disparity to small to make note of.

1. Yesssss, I win.

Really? After Dooku stops attacking Yoda with his lightning it continues for a few seconds while separate from his fingers. I'd say it's pretty silly to believe that lightning can't leave the fingers, what do you think happens when you stop using force lightning? The lightning you've already generated doesn't wink out of existence, it continues forwards tapering off where you stopped. Vitiate just shot quick single bolts in rapid succession.

If I had to picture it it would go something like this:

YouTube video

Originally posted by Beniboybling
2. Ah missed that. However notice how Yoda is blocking one part with his hand and one part with his lightsaber. So his lightsaber would be effectively taking the brunt of a one-handed stream.

But wouldn't he be putting his effort between blocking it with his hand and maintaining his grip?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
3. I'm aware of the official rules of canon, and I'm also aware that never has it been stated the script to be canon. Indeed if I recall the script states that Sidious was losing, which is ultimately not the direction they decided to take. Again script = non-canon. A helpful resource perhaps but still non-canonical.

Lol, it states that even deleted scenes and production notes are canon, of course scripts are.

Yeah, that's a really dumb thing. Yoda disarms Sidious and is reflecting his lightning back at him. Sidious "looks doomed". Then Yoda just jumps away and lets Sidious recover. Lmao, wtf?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
4. There is no indication that Ataru took anything out of Yoda either, we just assume it did cause Ataru. Likewise mental attacks and Oneness consume large amounts of energy. Not that I'm saying Yoda was less tired, what I'm saying is the fact that Revan had exerted himself, combined with the fact that Yoda is a superior Force User, makes up for Yoda's own exhaustion.

Revan didn't even use a mental attack so whatever bro. Prove that his brief mental defense took a great deal of energy to pull off and I might concede that you have a point. In the book Revan disrupted Vitiates attack as soon as be begins to feel its pressure. I highly doubt he got tired from split second defense. And Revan didn't go "Oneness", he unleashed some Light and Dark energy in an explosion. Its totally baseless speculation that it took alot out of him.

Yoda might be the superior Force User, but thats made up for the fact that he's old as hell and uses an extremely energy intensive saber style, had just been knocked out and had been jumping around a massive arena dodging platforms. Yoda was at the very end of his fight while Revan was at the start. After this he gets knocked out and heals grievous burns and still stands up ready to continue fighting. After the Yoda thing he gave up and ran away. He was obviously in worse shape than Revan was. Yoda is old and walks with a cane, he gets tired much much quicker and easier than Revan does.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
5. I am not going to push the fact that the Sith Emperor was amped by the nexus, it makes little difference, but considering this is his throne room and the planet is bathed in the DS is a strong possibility

Was Sidious' throne room a nexus?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
6. You keep saying that but offer no proof, so I'm inclined to ignore that completely. Sidious' superiority in Force Lightining is self-evident, and as a raw power feat that even untrained Force Users have been known to pull off in fits of rage, does not require much in the way of refinement.

I laughed. Sidious' superiority is self-evident, huh? Sure.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And the fact that Sidious mastered the Force Maelstrom and the Force Storm demonstrates that he did not neglect this field of study at all. And despite the Sith Emperor having "infinitely more time" to hone his Force Powers Sidious still had time to master all known Force Powers in existence and create his own new ones.

Maelstrom is a combination of 3 different Force attacks so its not just in the field of lightning. Plus Malgus, a lesser adept that Vitiate, could pull off that attack so it doesn't indicate anything. And Force Storm has little to do with lightning either so ok?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
To claim that Sidious put more time into lightsaber combat than Force Powers in general is a tad on the ridiculous side.

I'll close that point with this quote:

"The Sith grew past the use of lightsabers. But we continue to use them, if only to humiliate the Jedi."

--Darth Sidious.

I didn't say that. I said he put focus into it. Vitiate spurned a lightsaber. How it inconceivable that the Sith who spent all his time investing in his Force powers would be superior in that aspect to the one who invested in both the Force and lightsaber combat? I actually think its silly to think that Sidious is so superior that he was more skilled in every aspect than Vitiate, even Vitiates specialty.

...

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No but there is a big purple ray of sorts shooting into the ground. To demonstrate. Noting how it immobilizes the user.

Clearly the Sith Emperor wields a higher variant here that he can summon and then move on to other things.

It makes it less impressive, because it just means the Sith Emperor needs even more energy to achieve that Sidious can do with less.

However it doesn't really make a difference, they are blocking the energy somehow, in this case they have to divide their energy up in to Force shields and lightsaber deflection, if it had been just the lightning bolt they would have been able to rededicate the energy from the Force shield and put it into the lightsaber deflection.

So we cannot claim "well if he wasn't summoning a Force storm he would have slapped them right down" - which itself begs the question of why he didn't do that in the first place...

But he's still doing that stuff. I mean, he's not shooting lightning into the ground like in the video, but he wasn't doing that when he conjured the storm in the first place. He's doing exactly what he was, he's swirling with power, his hands are glowing etc. So theres no visible difference between him conjuring it and maintaining it other than that he's not gesturing.

Dude, no way is it less impressive than Sidious knocking a tired Yoda's lightsaber out of his hand. Obviously. Also theres no indication that he needed to do it. It was easy for him and if you're right, he casually put out enough energy to pwn 4 Jedi for 20 seconds.

I still have no idea what the heck you mean here. The Force shields and lightsabers are blocking the same lightning bolts. What does it matter?

Because he was effing around and taking it casual?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
4. Asajj Ventress has taken on and defeated knights of their caliber and master's who surpass them, she is no small time Sith, I see no evidence that suggests they surpassed her. Yoda slapped Ventress down like a punk. And while now 4 Ventress' combined wouldn't be outclassed by Yoda, Yoda would still surpass that power. Yoda is on Sidious' level remember, do you really think the combined power of 4 Ventress' could challenge Sidious? Heck why I am even asking this question they failed to take down the Sith Emperor of course they can't take down Sidious which means they'd fail against Yoda as well.

Yes, Yoda most likely surpasses the combined power of four Ventress', if you consider the ridiculous ease in which his equal can manipulate both Maul and Savage (both of whom are more powerful than Ventress) simultaneously with TK alone.

You are absolutely correct.

Also, I'm not sure if you follow most of Neph's arguments regarding the lightning attacks of PT era characters, but according to him, Dooku didn't overpower Bulq's power when he blasted him unconscious because there is nothing to indicate that Bulq used the force to try to counter the assault. That same logic can be applied to Vitiate's defeat of the strike team. Only Braga and HoT used their lightsabers as a defense, while the others showed absolutely nothing to indicate they used anything to counter Vitiate's attack, not even the force. So Vitiate didn't overpower their combined power if there is nothing to indicate they used their power in an attempt to block the attack.

No, Neph, I'm not picking on you. I'm just helping Beniboy out, because he seems to have his hands full. Though, he's already winning, and is wasting his time on Ant and LeGenD.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So what's it gonna be, a intelligent debate or a flame war? The latter seems to be a favourite on this site.

😕

There is more point in having a flame war than having a serious debate with Ant and LeGenD.

Actually you can see Leeha still moving after being hit with lightning (you can actually see the lightning spiraling around her a bit as she runs) so obviously she was defending against it somehow.

Also stop picking on me, you bitter horses arse.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also stop picking on me, you bitter horses arse.

She was stunned and being electrocuted. Dooku's attack on Bulq is not the only time you used that logic, though. You also used it on Dooku's lightning attack on Ventress and the nightsisters; they were also moving.

Originally posted by i_like_swords
LOL at Sidious_66 dissing Ant and Nephthys

You mean Ant and LeGenD?

🙄 Jack, I know you can do better then this.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
She was stunned and being electrocuted.

Later. She was still running through lightning at one point.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes, Yoda most likely surpasses the combined power of four Ventress', if you consider the ridiculous ease in which his equal can manipulate both Maul and Savage (both of whom are more powerful than Ventress) simultaneously with TK alone.

You are absolutely correct.

4 Ventess may not equal a Yoda but Yoda is not equaling the combined might of Tol Braga and HoT either, forget the entire referred Strike Team.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, I'm not sure if you follow most of Neph's arguments regarding the lightning attacks of PT era characters, but according to him, Dooku didn't overpower Bulq's power when he blasted him unconscious because there is nothing to indicate that Bulq used the force to try to counter the assault. That same logic can be applied to Vitiate's defeat of the strike team. Only Braga and HoT used their lightsabers as a defense, while the others showed absolutely nothing to indicate they used anything to counter Vitiate's attack, not even the force. So Vitiate didn't overpower their combined power if there is nothing to indicate they used their power in an attempt to block the attack.

Warren Sedoru was the first Jedi (of the Jedi Strike Team led by Tol Braga) to ignite his lightsaber and get ready to defend himself from impending attack from Emperor Vitiate. He had the talent to read minds of others so he may have figured out that Emperor Vitiate was about to attack the Jedi. More importantly, all Jedi attempted to defend themselves from powers of Emperor Vitiate. Tol Braga and HoT had superior defensive abilities then the other 2 so they performed better.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, Neph, I'm not picking on you. I'm just helping Beniboy out, because he seems to have his hands full. Though, he's already winning, and is wasting his time on Ant and LeGenD.

😕

There is more point in having a flame war than having a serious debate with Ant and LeGenD.

"Its not your business to tell who should debate with who. Debates with you typically do not turn out meaningful either."

Well there we have it.

LeGenD finally admits no one can have a meaningful debate with him.

Originally posted by Selenial
"Its not your business to tell who should debate with who. Debates with you typically do not turn out meaningful either."

Well there we have it.

LeGenD finally admits no one can have a meaningful debate with him.

You have started to sound like a creep. Grow up.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Do you have anything better to do then obsessing over me and trolling?

You have started to sound like a creep. Grow up.

Umm, so you're allowed to be hung up on a Comment that you misunderstood from 2 years ago, and I can't point this out?

You're starting to backtrack, grow up.

Originally posted by Selenial
Umm, so you're allowed to be hung up on a Comment that you misunderstood from 2 years ago, and I can't point this out?

You're starting to backtrack, grow up.

Also, your trolling is becoming an issue. In each and every thread, you are just trolling and engaging in character-assassination attempts. This is not healthy.

I have recently reminded you of your "not so stellar" record in debates because of your trolling activities that are ongoing and continous.

Don't lecture me about growing up. Pot calling kettle back.