Originally posted by Emperordmb
Holy **** a moderator said to cool things down, yet Legend and Selenial continue to fight eachother.
I respectfully asked her to stop trolling in my latest thread but she didn't get the message.
When I began to remind her that she have taken her personal attacks too far, she didn't stop but have the nerve to lecture me to stop talking to her.
Internet bullies.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm not one to discredit my own arguments but I'm going to have to disagree with you there. They would have obviously had their Force Barriers up i.e. that which defends against Force-based attacks such as Force choke, which the lightning would have had to break through.Granted lightning seems to be much more effective against Force barriers than TK. And yes they never had a chance to use any kind of Force Deflection.
Side note, I'd definitely say the Sora Bulq, on a mission to confront Count Dooku would have his Force Barriers up. But we should not as a wielder of the Juyo form (he failed to master Vaapad) his Force barriers would be weaker than most as he puts all his power into offense.
But still, Sora Bulq is a powerful Force User.
I don't agree with that line of logic either, which is why I find Vitiate's defeat of the strike team impressive. I'm simply pointing out how Neph's logic can be used against him.
As for Bulq, yeah, he's a powerful force user. But I don't see how his offensive lightsaber style is an indication that his force defense against force based attack would be weaker, especially when he is up against a force user of Dooku's caliber.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Ventress wasn't running through it though, she was twisting in agony and shitting her panties over it.
Just because she wasn't capable of running through it doesn't mean she wasn't using the force to resist the attack, otherwise she should have been taken out as easily as Bulq was.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And that's not valid because? If Soderu, the guy with more scars that hairs was pwned istantly by getting hit by the lightning, why was Leeha running through it if not because she was tanking it with the Force.
Why wasn't Ventress put out as easily as Bulq was if she wasn't using the force to resist. Again, you're comparing her performance against the lightning to the rest on the strike team, which is irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make here.
I believe all force users would have their force defense put up in combat situation unless there is something to suggest that they don't, considering it's a standard thing for a jedi to do.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Just because she wasn't capable of running through it doesn't mean she wasn't using the force to resist the attack, otherwise she should have been taken out as easily as Bulq was.
Well if she started resisting afterwards thats nice for her I guess?
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Why wasn't Ventress put out as easily as Bulq was if she wasn't using the force to resist. Again, you're comparing her performance against the lightning to the rest on the strike team, which is irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make here.I believe all force users would have their force defense put up in combat situation unless there is something to suggest that they don't, considering it's a standard thing for a jedi to do.
So you are, in fact, just picking a fight with me on this topic again.
Ok thats good to know.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
In response to Legend's post [to big to quote]1. Yoda's canonical position is this:
Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.
--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...
--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
And neither of this sources are outdated, the Encyclopedia remains the "definitive reference guide to a space fantasy phenomenon" and has yet to be replaced.
Star Wars The Complete Encyclopedia also have this statement:
Once the most powerful and dangerous Dark Lords of the Sith, he was responsible for deaths of millions four millennia before the rise of the Empire.
So was Exar Kun really the most powerful Sith Lord prior to Darth Sidious?
This is why re-evaluation of all characters is important in the light of latest updates to the lore. Some statements in these sources can no longer be taken at face-value due to newer developments.
Latest (canon) promotion of Jedi Master Yoda is that he is stronger then most, not all. It is not necessary that he is stronger then each (ancient) Force-user including each (ancient) Jedi and Sith.
The accolade granted to both Yoda and Sidious in Star Wars: The Complete Encyclopedia is null and void in the light of latest official developments. These two are no longer regarded as most powerful practitioners of light and dark respectively even at official capacity. Timeline based justification for this accolade can also not work since The Ones are ancient beings.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
On top of that Del Rey has confirmed that the novelizations remain canon in light of the new continuity:The novelizations of the seven films--including The Clone Wars--are canon.
...
To clarify, movie novelizations are canon where they align with what is seen on screen in the 6 films and the Clone Wars animated movie.
I have read this: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/04/disney-and-del-rey-announce-new-qunified-canonq-for-upcoming-star-wars-expanded-universe-novels
Originally posted by Beniboybling
So yes, Yoda remains canonically superior to the Hero of Tython and the entire Jedi Strike Team. The databank is retconning nothing, the statement doesn't even conflict with these statements. The same applies to the statement regarding Sidious.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Is Yoda strongest than most? Yes he was the strongest mortal practitioner of the light side in galactic history. Is he the strongest of them all? No he is surpassed by the Father, the Son, the Daugher and possibly Sidious. And Luke Skywalker in future canon may also end up surpassing him.So yeah, let's not even go there.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
2. Proof? The Emperor is currently AWOL and *looks up at the sky* yup still stormy. Heck the notion that the Sith Emperor caused the storms is not even confirmed as fact, its rumor and hearsay. You can't seriously believe that the Sith Emperor has being playing weatherman for the past millenia.Anyway what you need to understand is the difference between Alter Enviroment and Force Lightning, they are not at all the same. The creation of lightning storms does not involve shooting lightning across the entire atmosphere, its about manipulating weather currents and infusing it with the dark side to create natural lightning.
Every flash in Dromund Kaas sky is not the Sith Emperor shooting lightning from his fingers. Obviously. And considering Plagueis' skill with Alter Enviroment combined with Sidious' ability to infuse entire planets with the dark side and his ability to affect weather with his mere presence, Sidious is most certainly capable of this, and likely more.
Power hungry, the Emperor spent great energy discovering and perfecting esoteric rites of darkness – rituals that wrecked the atmosphere of Dromund Kaas, transforming the ionosphere into a swirling electric storm.
Source: http://www.swtor.com/holonet/planets/dromund-kaas
There is not a single planet whose weather conditions are constantly stormy naturally. It is obvious that Emperor Vitiate is responsible for seemingly endless stormy climatic conditions in Dromund Kaas, thanks to his dark side practices.
I am not asserting that Emperor Vitiate have been directly shooting lightning in the sky. My point is that he have created lightning storms on enormous scale with his dark side practices (rituals/relevant techniques), he spent great deal of energy to pull these feats off so he have been directly involved.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
3. I'm being sarcastic, because you're exaggerating.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
4. Yes the Sith Emperor did easily subdue the Jedi Strike Team, he didn't even have to engage them. But my point is that Sidious can subdue such individuals with even greater ease whereas the Sith Emperor requires much more effort to pull of comparable feats. So no, his proficiency with lightning is not unrivaled. You're barely managing to prove his lightning is equal. Subduing powerful Force Users when in a weakened state with a flash of lightning is unrivaled.
Darth Sidious have never been tested by a Jedi Strike Team of such a caliber in single combat. You need to realize that each member of the Jedi Strike Team led by Tol Braga is one of the strongest and most resolute Jedi of the Order. All were/are quality Jedi like Mace Windu, Anakin Skywalker and Yoda.
When a Jedi Strike Team confronted Darth Sidious, the Sith Lord chose to dispatch it with his dueling abilities. Darth Sidious would have been calculating his options while having conversation with the Jedi and decided to thin the numbers with a lightsaber before he would go all-out, don't you think? He ruled out the option to target multiple Jedi with his Force powers.
Sidous's performance against single quality Jedi is not good enough for comparison here because a Strike Team of powerful Force-users is typically harder to overcome with Force powers then a lone powerful Force-user.
I know that Darth Sidious have demonstrated the capability to kill/injure/utterly destroy multiple opponents with his lightning powers during some confrontations. However, my focus is on quality of opposition and not just numbers. Darth Sidious might be capable of reducing 3 Jedi (mooks) to ash with a single blast of lightning but he isn't going to achieve the same result against 3 powerful Jedi with same approach. Clear now?
Originally posted by Beniboybling
5. I'm not talking about Nyriss' "signature lightning" I'm talking about her casual bursts. As for the rest of your point, I've already addressed this and you failed to respond I can only assume 1. you missed it or 2. you ignored it because you were unable to respond.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
So, allow me to quote myself:6. Yes she was. She possessed the same potential as Luke Skywalker after all and like him only required a limited amount of training to become quite powerful. Powerful enough to use abilities such as battle meditation and sever Force both of which she used to help Luke defeat Darth Sidious and his Force Storm - the most powerful expression of the dark side on record. She was also able to shield her son from Sidious' spirit.
The word powerful is thrown around so casually by fans that it has lost its value in debates. I would caution you against exaggerating things on your own accord.
I am not asserting that the Jedi that Darth Sidious injured or killed with his lightning powers were utterly mooks, I am asserting that they do not match the power and capability of some of the finest Jedi in history whom Emperor Vitiate can utterly destroy with just his lightning powers, should he try.
Leia and Luke used their combined might coupled with harmony technique to disrupt Sidious's control over the Force Storm (Wormhole) power that he summoned to destroy the Jedi after loosing a hand earlier during a lightsaber duel with Luke. Afterwards, the Jedi managed to flee to safety before the power summoned by Darth Sidious destroyed his avatar along with the entire fleet under his command. MOST IMPORTANTLY: In absence of Luke, Leia stood no chance against Darth Sidious in single combat. You should carefully phrase your statements to ensure accuracy and prevent confusion and misrepresentation.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Scoffing at that only invites disaster. And arguing that every member of the Jedi Strike Team is superior to her is ridiculous. Keep in mind that if Sidious had unleashed a Force Storm or a Force Blast like the Sith Emperor did, or was at full strength, Leia and her friends would have been blasted back into the TOR era.
I believe that Darth Sidious could possibly eliminate both Leia and Luke with his most destructive powers if he had made better decisions while confronting them. However, I am not sure if he could pull this off with just his lightning powers.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
But do we care? No. We are comparing the amount of energy it takes of Sidious and the Sith Emperor to subdue not kill Force Users.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
7. Your lack of knowledge on Vaapad is astounding. The power creates a superconducting loop that allows the user to channel the energy of the attacker into their own assault, allowing them to deflect vast amounts of energy beyond that of their normal capabilities. This means Windu can challenge and defeat dark siders that are superior to him.
Sidious came close to destroying Mace with Force lightning and I am confident that Sith Emperor would eliminate Mace outright.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
During his battle with Sidious, Windu took this to a whole other level and yet despite that Sidious' powers proved to vast to overcome. Noting that Windu's abilities put him on level with Tol Braga, the Hero of Tython and even Revan.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
FYI: Windu created this power to combat his inner darkness, this "weakness" therefore only made his application more powerful. So enough with that nonsense.
But Mace Windu doesn't have maximum mastery of Tutaminis or does he?
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yoda makes up for it in power.Galen Marek experienced a feat of Oneness, which considerably increases one's ability to wield the Force to levels that at least in their current state they can not usually attain. It was only through such a state that Marek was able to stand against the Emperor and despite that he failed to kill him and Sidious suffered no injuries. Yoda did much better considering he did not need Oneness and was able to rebound the energy without serious injury to himself.
Marek blocked Sidious's lightning with bare hands prior to experiencing oneness condition. Marek even successfully deflected Sidious's lightning back towards the Sith Lord while blocking it. Sidious experienced incredible pain when subjected to his own lightning. However, as this struggle was ensuing, Marek noticed that his allies were in danger and he lowered his guard to attack the Imperial forces that were pursuing his allies to save them. At this point, Marek got stressed by focusing on Sidious as well as Imperial forces pursuing his allies so he gave himself fully to the Force to destroy the Imperial forces before they could kill his allies.
Marek did better job at handling Sidious lightning then Yoda ever did. I am inclined to believe that Revan is also better then Yoda in this regard, the manner in which he tanked and deflected Nyriss' signature lightning is mind-bogglingly impressive.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Though I really fail to see your point on that one. Marek surpasses Revan in power, as well as Windu.
Marek is featured in a medium in which utmost importance have been given to a Force-user's ability to manipulate the Force.
Revan, is unfortunately, featured in RPGs and a pathetic novel. I am incline to believe that Revan is lot more impressive then he may look in these mediums. Put Revan in big screen and I am sure he will roll lot of heads.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
8. Check this. Jedi not disarmed, lightsaber not destroyed. Now check this. Jedi disarmed, lightsaber probably destroyed. Look familar? That's because those are the links I just posted, which you rather laughable ignored. The Sith Emperor was only able to destroy/disarm the Hero of Tython's and Tol Braga's lightsabers via prolonged exposure to a Force Storm and multiple bursts of lightning, whereas Sidious had no need for a Force Storm and merely required one burst to disarm a more powerful Force user. Are you getting this? Lets just be clear. Blast of the Sith Emperor's lightning, fails to disarm the Hero of Tython, fails to disarm Tol Braga. Blast of Sidious' lightning, succeeds in disarming Yoda.Sith Emperor's advantages:[list][*]Up against lesser Force Users.
[*]Said Force Users forced to expend energy deflecting Force Storm.
[*]Able to fire off multiple bursts.
[/list] Still fails.
Sidous unleashed lightning on Yoda with great speed so pressure may have been too much for Yoda to cope with. Also, Yoda is old while HoT and Braga are young and physically strong.
Aging does have an impact on performance of a Force-user.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
8. I fail to see how, elaborate please. A young apprentice level Darth Thanaton hardly comes close to the venerable powers of Master Yoda, or the Windu's mastery over Vaapad. The fact that the Sith Emperor failed to achieve this effect against Revan, the Hero of Tython and Tol Braga indicates he is incapable.
Thanaton actually packed great endurance, he took lot of abuse from Exal Kressh during the battle without getting injured. Exal Kressh is the only known individual to disarm Thanaton with lightning, if I recall correctly.
I am just pointing out that Exal Kressh possesses the capability to destroy a lightsaber with a single burst of her lightning, Sith Emperor can produce even more powerful bursts of lightning then her.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And I'm talking about in regards to Revan the Sith Emperor's initial bursts which he succeeded in blocking with a lightsaber.And again we are comparing the effects that blasts of Sidious and the Sith Emperor's lighting has on Force Users, not all out attacks.
Sidious is featured in different mediums so his powers may come across more impressive then powers depicted in an RPG game which doesn't have very advanced engine.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
9. Which have yet to surface, and should have surface by now. The creative liberties are in BioWare's hands, not yours.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
To be honest, Vitiate's accolades saying he is the most powerful can easily be in a political/military standpoint. The dude was in total command of the entire Sith Empire.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
To be honest, Vitiate's accolades saying he is the most powerful can easily be in a political/military standpoint. The dude was in total command of the entire Sith Empire.
Yes but Sidious had control of a legitimate government that controlled way more of the Galaxy than the Sith Empire could ever hope to.
Originally posted by Selenial
Yes but Sidious had control of a legitimate government that controlled way more of the Galaxy than the Sith Empire could ever hope to.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm aware, that is why we must always look in context. I can argue some of Vitiate's quotes are in reference to a tactical or military standpoint.
And is agree on a lot of them, just not all.
However the ones that call him the greatest Sith are obviously referring to up to that point in galactic history.
So it's not like those quotes are THAT important, not that many great Sith came before him. (That we have accolades for)
Originally posted by Selenial
And is agree on a lot of them, just not all.However the ones that call him the greatest Sith are obviously referring to up to that point in galactic history.
So it's not like those quotes are THAT important, not that many great Sith came before him. (That we have accolades for)
And then I will still argue then Darth Nihilus can be above the Sith Emperor, to be honest. The hype that Darth Nihilus has, and then the feats that back it up are no joke.