Revan's Raw Power Comparison

LeGenD is so innocent.

All he wants to do is make 'spider man vs Galactus' type threads and get some serious discussion from them, and insult others for not agreeing.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
These sources are outdated in the context of coverage of content. Authors of these sources were not aware of SWTOR related developments, how would they be at that time?

[B]Star Wars The Complete Encyclopedia also have this statement:

Once the most powerful and dangerous Dark Lords of the Sith, he was responsible for deaths of millions four millennia before the rise of the Empire.

So was Exar Kun really the most powerful Sith Lord prior to Darth Sidious?

This is why re-evaluation of all characters is important in the light of latest updates to the lore. Some statements in these sources can no longer be taken at face-value due to newer developments.

Latest (canon) promotion of Jedi Master Yoda is that he is stronger then most, not all. It is not necessary that he is stronger then each (ancient) Force-user including each (ancient) Jedi and Sith.

The accolade granted to both Yoda and Sidious in Star Wars: The Complete Encyclopedia is null and void in the light of latest official developments. These two are no longer regarded as most powerful practitioners of light and dark respectively even at official capacity. Timeline based justification for this accolade can also not work since The Ones are ancient beings.

You need to provide evidence for this declaration.

I have read this: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/04/disney-and-del-rey-announce-new-qunified-canonq-for-upcoming-star-wars-expanded-universe-novels

See above

See above

That is not hearsay.

Power hungry, the Emperor spent great energy discovering and perfecting esoteric rites of darkness – rituals that wrecked the atmosphere of Dromund Kaas, transforming the ionosphere into a swirling electric storm.

Source: http://www.swtor.com/holonet/planets/dromund-kaas

There is not a single planet whose weather conditions are constantly stormy naturally. It is obvious that Emperor Vitiate is responsible for seemingly endless stormy climatic conditions in Dromund Kaas, thanks to his dark side practices.

I am not asserting that Emperor Vitiate have been directly shooting lightning in the sky. My point is that he have created lightning storms on enormous scale with his dark side practices (rituals/relevant techniques), he spent great deal of energy to pull these feats off so he have been directly involved.

Exaggerating about what?

You are contradicting yourself in your opening statement here. Emperor Vitiate did engage the Jedi Strike Team led by Tol Braga but subdued it easily.

Darth Sidious have never been tested by a Jedi Strike Team of such a caliber in single combat. You need to realize that each member of the Jedi Strike Team led by Tol Braga is one of the strongest and most resolute Jedi of the Order. All were/are quality Jedi like Mace Windu, Anakin Skywalker and Yoda.

When a Jedi Strike Team confronted Darth Sidious, the Sith Lord chose to dispatch it with his dueling abilities. Darth Sidious would have been calculating his options while having conversation with the Jedi and decided to thin the numbers with a lightsaber before he would go all-out, don't you think? He ruled out the option to target multiple Jedi with his Force powers.

Sidous's performance against single quality Jedi is not good enough for comparison here because a Strike Team of powerful Force-users is typically harder to overcome with Force powers then a lone powerful Force-user.

I know that Darth Sidious have demonstrated the capability to kill/injure/utterly destroy multiple opponents with his lightning powers during some confrontations. However, my focus is on quality of opposition and not just numbers. Darth Sidious might be capable of reducing 3 Jedi (mooks) to ash with a single blast of lightning but he isn't going to achieve the same result against 3 powerful Jedi with same approach. Clear now? [/B]

Nowhere has it been stated that the date of a source has any bearing on the sources credibility. So it does not, regardless of whether you think it does, you have no authority to question any canonical sources, so don't try it. They are canon and therefore designed to be taken at face-value, you have no authority to claim the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia is now null and void which is a frankly laughable claim. After all, where are your sources?

Earlier developments set down the path that the rest of continuity is expected to align with. One might argue that BioWare has failed to do this, by touting the Sith Emperor as the "most powerful" when others hold this title. But the fact is new sources do not override old sources, so all we can argue in the absence of a retcon is that the statement is time bound. The Ones clearly are exempt from such statements, being immortal, considering that the SWTORE made the claim that the Sith Emperor was the most powerful Force wielder in direct conflict with the statements made that it was in fact the Ones. How many more times must I explain that to you?

FYI: That statement is canonical, so yes Exar Kun really was the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith up until that point. All you have provided is definitive proof that the time bound argument is in fact the case considering these quotes exist in the same book.

Think it was just a typo? No. The statement is made in the contexts of the time, just as it is with the Sith Emperor. You need to accept this.

Anyway, your questioning my sources? Here. The novel is canon, those statements are therefore also canon. Yoda and Sidious therefore retain their canonical titles in light of the "latest developments."

2. You miss the point, its described as hearsay in the SWTORE so it is unlikely the power is as well-developed as you claim, which it is not. Instead you are drawing erroneous interpretations of the feat.

The Sith Emperor infused the atmosphere with DS energy, this disrupted the planets stratosphere and led to naturally occuring lightning storms.

It has absolutely nothing to do with Force Lightning and can barely be attributed to Alter Environment as it may well have been accidental. Therefore it cannot be used to claim - as you originally did - that the Sith Emperor is capable of spreading his lightning
across larger distances.

3. That Exal Kressh spread her lightning across the breadth of a space station - she did not.

4. When I meant engage I meant in lightsaber combat - as in they did not even get close to him. So ease would be a fitting description.

Anyway, considering the sheer amount of energy the Sith Emperor had to dispense it does not matter that Sidious' targets were weaker - noting that one of them was in fact killed.

Need I even mention that he was in a weakened state? These more than make up for the disparity in power which subsequently fails to match up to the disparity in power exerted. I never brought the Coruscant strike team into this so I don't know why you suddenly are. I'm talking about Leia, Brand and the other Jedi. On that topic though, Sidious had shown an ability to dominate beings of their caliber so he could absolutely have incapacitated all of them bar Windu with little difficulty.

After all, he destroyed then in lightsaber combat because of his superior Force ability - his exceptional skills had little to do with it. It was pure speed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Ok, how do you know that Darth Sidious reduced 3 dark prophets to ash with a casual burst of lightning? It isn't a casual burst if it engulfed 3 opponents simultaneously and reduced them to ash swiftly. In addition, if I recall correctly, this event took place in a region strong in the dark side.

Leia had acquired some decent talents by this time but she wasn't anywhere close to her peak at this point. A Jedi can have decent strength/abilities and still not be regarded as powerful at official capacity. Kit Fisto have decent showings with the Force but he is not recognized as powerful Jedi at official capacity.

The word powerful is thrown around so casually by fans that it has lost its value in debates. I would caution you against exaggerating things on your own accord.

I am not asserting that the Jedi that Darth Sidious injured or killed with his lightning powers were utterly mooks, I am asserting that they do not match the power and capability of some of the finest Jedi in history whom Emperor Vitiate can utterly destroy with just his lightning powers, should he try.

Leia and Luke used their combined might coupled with harmony technique to disrupt Sidious's control over the Force Storm (Wormhole) power that he summoned to destroy the Jedi after loosing a hand earlier during a lightsaber duel with Luke. Afterwards, the Jedi managed to flee to safety before the power summoned by Darth Sidious destroyed his avatar along with the entire fleet under his command. MOST IMPORTANTLY: In absence of Luke, Leia stood no chance against Darth Sidious in single combat. You should carefully phrase your statements to ensure accuracy and prevent confusion and misrepresentation.

I am relying on official information to infer that every member of the Jedi Strike Team led by Tol Braga was likely stronger then Leia as of DE. If Leia is officially described as a powerful Jedi at this point, I may give her the benefit of being a match or superior to one of the members of the referred Jedi Strike Team.

I believe that Darth Sidious could possibly eliminate both Leia and Luke with his most destructive powers if he had made better decisions while confronting them. However, I am not sure if he could pull this off with just his lightning powers.

If Emperor Vitiate could easily subdue 4 powerful Jedi (simultaneously) with a sustained bust of lightning, he likely didn't had to exert and expend lot of energy for pulling of this feat.

I am aware of this but I do not subscribe to no-limits fallacy for Mace Windu. I am not sure if Vaapad works against all kinds of Force powers, also his defenses can be overwhelmed by extremely potent powers.

Sidious came close to destroying Mace with Force lightning and I am confident that Sith Emperor would eliminate Mace outright.

Maybe

Ok

But Mace Windu doesn't have maximum mastery of Tutaminis or does he?

This is not correct.

Marek blocked Sidious's lightning with bare hands prior to experiencing oneness condition. Marek even successfully deflected Sidious's lightning back towards the Sith Lord while blocking it. Sidious experienced incredible pain when subjected to his own lightning. However, as this struggle was ensuing, Marek noticed that his allies were in danger and he lowered his guard to attack the Imperial forces that were pursuing his allies to save them. At this point, Marek got stressed by focusing on Sidious as well as Imperial forces pursuing his allies so he gave himself fully to the Force to destroy the Imperial forces before they could kill his allies.

Marek did better job at handling Sidious lightning then Yoda ever did. I am inclined to believe that Revan is also better then Yoda in this regard, the manner in which he tanked and deflected Nyriss' signature lightning is mind-bogglingly impressive.

I am not sure about this.

Marek is featured in a medium in which utmost importance have been given to a Force-user's ability to manipulate the Force.

Revan, is unfortunately, featured in RPGs and a pathetic novel. I am incline to believe that Revan is lot more impressive then he may look in these mediums. Put Revan in big screen and I am sure he will roll lot of heads.

Also you failed to respond to my quote. Here it is again:

Yet the barrier she threw up would have counted for nothing, Nyriss is described as putting all her energy into her final attack and this would have left her with nothing left to defend herself with - making her barriers easy to penetrate.

Now while this was not stated in the novel, it is the only logical conclusion to reach. If she had had her full barriers up, she would not have been incinerated, she would not have even been harmed. Because ultimately it would have been the equivalent of being attacked by a being of equal power. And an offense equal in power to a defense = stalemate.

This is reinforced by a similar incident in which Sidious had his Force Lightning, which he put all his energy into, redirected by Galen Marek, yet he emerged unscathed, if we ascribe to your logic he would have died like Marek.

6. Nor was Luke when he beat Darth Vader?! Fisto's feats demonstrate him to be as powerful as he is, as do Leia's. I have no idea what this "official capacity" nonsense is.

And I don't much care, so drop it.

You want me to be more specific? Leia's feats demonstrate herself to be more powerful than Tol Braga and all the other members of the Jedi Strike Team bar the Hero of Tython.

I am fully aware of what I said, and I was quite accurate. She was powerful enough use abilities such as battle meditation and sever Force both of which she used to help Luke defeat Darth Sidious and his Force Storm - the most powerful expression of the dark side on record.

Let's turn your argument on its head:

"in absence of Leia, Luke stood no chance against Darth Sidious in single combat."

When Luke Skywalker attempted to destroy Sidious' clones on Byss, he was forced to confront one the clones and was totally overwhelmed, Sidious disarmed him with a couple of strikes before mentally dominating him.

However with Leia's help he was not only able to resist Sidious' mental domination, but engage and defeat him in a lightsaber duel and then sever him from the Force. The disparity between these two confrontations is immense and one could argue that Luke nigh doubled in power, which is a testament to Leia's own power.

So yes, Leia is deserved of the title "powerful" and is certainly more powerful than most of the Jedi Strike Team. This is clear proof of that. Considering that no other member of the OR era Jedi Order has pulled of comparable feats save the HoT - the most powerful member of the Order.

You are relying on vague accolades to infer that they are more powerful than Tol Braga, just because they have been described as the most powerful and resolute of their order does not make them superior to those who have not i.e Leia. This is a blatantly flawed argument as it relies on the notion that the entire Star Wars EU to consistently ascribe these accolades when necessary and uses adjectives consistently and specifically. Instead the opposite is the case.

Accolades are instead the basest level of evidence because they are 1. intepretable 2. so often time bound 3. subject to hyberbole.

7. The fact is, Windu's mastery of Vaapad makes him incredibly advanced in the realm of Force deflection. Even more advanced than Master Yoda.

Which means his deflective abilities are most certainly superior to Revan who has only mastered the basics, he has not taking it to Vaapad level mastery. The fact that Sidious was able to overwhelm such a defense indicates that he can overwhelm the defenses of anyone with inferior deflection skills. And this is demonstrated by his performance against Yoda.

And yes, I am correct concerning Marek, all he was capable of doing was taking a step towards him while experiencing extreme levels of pain. And he was only able to rebound the lightning via Oneness. Yoda did not experience that level of pain and did not require Oneness to deflect Sidious' lightning.

So please explain to me how Yoda is surpassed in this category.

Revan's perfomance against the Sith Emperor proves he cannot deal with top-tier Sith Lords such as Sidious, I have already proven this to Ant.

And as for the last part, feel free to cry about it. I really don't care.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Emperor Vitiate did succeed at disarming those Jedi so I do not get the fail part.

Sidous unleashed lightning on Yoda with great speed so pressure may have been too much for Yoda to cope with. Also, Yoda is old while HoT and Braga are young and physically strong.

Aging does have an impact on performance of a Force-user. [/B]

You are many things, a pleb is not one of them.

The Sith Emperor was only able to disarm those Jedi via successive bursts of lightning combined with prolonged exposure to a Force Storm. He failed to immediately disarm Braga and the HoT when they attempted to approach him and he blasted them with Force Lightining.

Sidious on the other hand succeeded in disarming Yoda without the aid of a Force Storm with but one blast.

Please explain to me, as opposed to evading my point (which is rather in-genuine might I add) how it is that the Sith Emperor can't disarm a powerful Jedi with one blast of lightning, yet Sidious can.

Because the only explanation I see is that the Sith Emperor's lightning isn't as powerful.

Noting, the speed of Sidious lightning only demonstrates it was more powerful as is possessed greater kinetic force. And the argument that Yoda is old in this context I'm afraid is moot, Yoda has Force Valor which he can use to overcome his physical fraility.

See here. Yoda's physical strength surpasses Sidious', debunking this silly notion that he lacked a strong grip on his lightsaber.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Thanaton was a Sith Lord by the time he confronted Exal Kressh. The latter Sith Lord was/is very powerful and proficient in use of lightning, she killed multiple opponents and utterly destroyed large structures made of steel and concrete with her lightning during her battles.

Thanaton actually packed great endurance, he took lot of abuse from Exal Kressh during the battle without getting injured. Exal Kressh is the only known individual to disarm Thanaton with lightning, if I recall correctly.

I am just pointing out that Exal Kressh possesses the capability to destroy a lightsaber with a single burst of her lightning, Sith Emperor can produce even more powerful bursts of lightning then her.

I think you need to re-evaluate this entire matter.

Sidious is featured in different mediums so his powers may come across more impressive then powers depicted in an RPG game which doesn't have very advanced engine.

Well, my point is that it is no wise to speculate about Emperor's lack of capability to perform an action without valid basis. Also, it is not necessary that BioWare would depict Emperor Vitiate performing every talent that he is a master of.

Bringing up out-of-universe observations is invalid and weak argument.

10. I have valid basis.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Actually when I look at it he's waving his hand the entire time until the HoT comes up to him, then he stops. I can only assume this to mean that he does have to use is hands to channel power into it, else he would have stopped straight away and zapped them with lightning. However considering he was able to blast the HoT when he got close, I can only assume it could sustain itself for a brief amount of time before dissipating.

Indeed when the Sith Emperor unleashes his final blast, the storm is completely gone. So again, when he's not waving his hand about, he's not channeling power into the storm. That is what I gather.

"Tired" Yoda > HoT, and Revan for that matter. Really if the Sith Emperor is capable of slapping down "tired" Yoda better than Sidious is, he really shouldn't struggle against the HoT or Revan, let alone Tol Braga.

No they are not, the lightning is all around them, you can't block it all with your lightsaber, only frontal assaults would be blockable with the lightsaber. This was a 360 degree onslaught.

And yeah cause he ruled as Emperor for over a thousand years by "effing around and taking it casual." Which, for the record, does not involve conjuring a massive Force Storm, then throwing a Force Blast at them. That is called being keen. If he was capable of just using lightning he wouldn't even need to get off his chair.

That's a silly assumption. Just because he does something doesn't mean he needs to do it. The Hero uses TK by gesturing in a few cutscenes but demonstrates the ability to do it without gesturing at the end of Act I. To your other assumption, my interpretation for why he sweeps his hands and doesn't stop straight away is that he's creating the Storm over the area he's sweeping. You'll notice that the lightning starts in the area he's pointing at then starts falling in other areas as his hand moves across in front of him. The superior supposition is that he could sustain the Storm while using another attack. This is the Sith Emperor. That level of Force Mastery is to be expected.

There was no need to continue the Storm at that point. Plus that's a completely different thing, he needs more concentration on an attack he charges for a few seconds that a standard blast of Force Lightning.

Pfft. I doubt that. Yoda is SO superior that he's above those guys even while exhausted. Especially not in terms of physical stuff.

Dude, that's just the discharge from the bolts hitting the floor. Who cares, it's negligible.

Well he is the kind of guy who strolled up to Revan to kill him with his own lightsaber instead of just pulling his head off with TK. I mean, it's not as if he really tried in that fight, he conjured the storm with a slow sweep of one hand. Compare that to Thanaton pooping lightning everywhere and straining.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Marka Ragnos may have figured that Sith Emperor would be too risky to approach so he chose Exar Kun. Also, I don't think that blessings of Marka Ragnos are needed to determine power factor of a character.

Awareness factor is not a valid argument. It is clear now that Exar Kun co-existed with many powerful Sith Lords in the galaxy and he was not the strongest among the Sith.

The Ones are and will be counted for evaluation ever since they have been introduced to the mythos. It makes no sense to exclude them from evaluation and neither it has been officially stated that The Ones are not considered for evaluation. Your point is moot.

It is always important to focus on:-

1. Publication date of sources
2. New information because it can retcon older information

Yoda and Sidious cannot be touted as most powerful practitioners of light and dark respectively in the light of latest content due to revision of the ground realities of the mythos on the whole.

I did not insult you, I reminded you that your points are lacking in logic.

1) It makes perfect sense to not include the Ones for evaluation, because they are top tier. Everyone else we've mentioned is below them. But fine, Yoda and Sidious are the most powerful practitioners of the Light/Dark Side (respectively) after the Ones.

2) Sources don't get overwritten just because another one is published after them. The TOR Encyclopedia doesn't cover anything beyond the TOR era. Because of that, the power rankings established after the TOR era still stand. I have never wavered from my stance that TOR characters are powerhouses, but that doesn't make them more powerful than established top tier characters (albeit under the Ones) just because their sourcebook was published more recently.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That's a silly assumption. Just because he does something doesn't mean he needs to do it. The Hero uses TK by gesturing in a few cutscenes but demonstrates the ability to do it without gesturing at the end of Act I. To your other assumption, my interpretation for why he sweeps his hands and doesn't stop straight away is that he's creating the Storm over the area he's sweeping. You'll notice that the lightning starts in the area he's pointing at then starts falling in other areas as his hand moves across in front of him. The superior supposition is that he could sustain the Storm while using another attack. This is the Sith Emperor. That level of Force Mastery is to be expected.

There was no need to continue the Storm at that point. Plus that's a completely different thing, he needs more concentration on an attack he charges for a few seconds that a standard blast of Force Lightning.

Pfft. I doubt that. Yoda is SO superior that he's above those guys even while exhausted. Especially not in terms of physical stuff.

Dude, that's just the discharge from the bolts hitting the floor. Who cares, it's negligible.

Well he is the kind of guy who strolled up to Revan to kill him with his own lightsaber instead of just pulling his head off with TK. I mean, it's not as if he really tried in that fight, he conjured the storm with a slow sweep of one hand. Compare that to Thanaton pooping lightning everywhere and straining.

I never said Yoda was exhausted, that is your assumption and you lack sufficient proof to back it up. Tired? Probably? Exhausted? Unlikely.

Not sure what your talking about I assume your referring to the bolts Braga deflected? They looked pretty intense to me.

And yeah its not really relevant, whether he was trying or not the energy he unleashed was insufficient to complete the job to a standard Sidious was capable of with a far lesser amount of power.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No

Darth Nihilus had little control over his condition and greatest powers. Also, if his greatest power is negated, he is likely to falter.

Quote for the Ancient Masters being a rival to Nihilus?

I think it's that "And he is rapidly approaching the Height of its power, I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith"

IIRC that's the quote, I posted that from memory

Originally posted by Selenial
I think it's that "And he is rapidly approaching the Height of its power, I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith"

IIRC that's the quote, I posted that from memory

Who exactly they were I cannot say, but considering the Nathema feat I'd say the Sith Emperor is among them.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Pretty much that exactly if I recall.

Who exactly they were I cannot say, but considering the Nathema feat I'd say the Sith Emperor is among them.

Not even close.

He'd already done that with Katarr.

Let's also not forget she wouldn't have known about Natheema

Originally posted by Selenial
Not even close.

He'd already done that with Katarr.

Let's also not forget she wouldn't have known about Natheema

The way I see it, the Sith Emperor's Force Drain is a lot more refined, stable and more varied in what it can do. But Nihilus has greater raw power.

👆

Originally posted by Beniboybling
True I guess, but I assume that the other "masters" possessed a similar power.

The way I see it, the Sith Emperor's Force Drain is a lot more refined, stable and more varied in what it can do. But Nihilus has greater raw power.

Except Nihilus needed no prep, no help etc.

He just... Drained, whereas the Emperor needed all the Sith's power, or needed a ridiculous amount of bloodshed.

It also made him into a soul-starved addict who ate his own body and could only consume until he destroyed everything or died. Vitiate's gave him great power without such pronounced negative qualities.

It's not more powerful, but it is "better".

Originally posted by Selenial
Except Nihilus needed no prep, no help etc.

He just... Drained, whereas the Emperor needed all the Sith's power, or needed a ridiculous amount of bloodshed.

If Emperor wanted to consume all life on Nathema, he could have pulled this off by himself but he wouldn't have accomplished corporeal immortality. Darth Nihilus, due to his condition, could instinctively perform Force Drain on planetary scale. In contrast, Emperor needed ritualistic method to perform the same action on matching scale but he didn't need to depend upon others for this action. This is the difference.

Yes, rituals can be performed single-handedly. In Dromund Kaas, Emperor, single-handedly, performed a ritual to corrupt the planet's environment. Dromund Kaas is enormous planet, far bigger then Katarr and Earth to give you an idea.

Originally posted by Selenial
Except Nihilus needed no prep, no help etc.

He just... Drained, whereas the Emperor needed all the Sith's power, or needed a ridiculous amount of bloodshed.

However what is more important is the fact that the Sith Emperor could siphon energies from a long range, or so it seemed considering he would somehow have to gather those energies released when he attempted to commit mass genocide.

Combine that with the Sith Emperor's mastery over Sith Sorcery and I'd say that the Sith Emperor likely has a lot more refined ability, control and scope whereas Nihilus is just "FOOD NOM NOM".

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD Yes, rituals can be performed single-handedly. In Dromund Kaas, Emperor, single-handedly, performed a ritual to corrupt the planet's environment. Dromund Kaas is enormous planet, far bigger then Katarr and Earth to give you an idea. [/B]

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Wrong unless you have proof.

No one is credited for participation in the feat of corruption of the entire environment of Dromund Kaas but Emperor only. Therefore, Emperor performed rituals single-handedly as well.

Emperor is stupendously powerful Force-user. No need to underestimate his capabilities. He doesn't have The Ones like hype for being a regular.