Originally posted by DarthAnt66I don't know, that was a long time ago.
Beniboyling, where did you find the quote "Revan has become more powerful than any Jedi has ever dreamed of," during the Foundry fight? You mention it here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5437480&postcount=69. I have looked through 19 videos of the Foundry fight and couldn't find it. 😬
Weird, I actually chanced upon the screenshot just a while back. Can't remember where but I could have sworn you were the poster.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
1. Any source that discredits your opinion is "outdated it seems. But unfortunately I'm going to require official proof before acknowledging these arguments - because you have no authority on matters of canon, and cannot make up rules are you are attempting to do so now.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nowhere has it been stated that the date of a source has any bearing on the sources credibility. So it does not, regardless of whether you think it does, you have no authority to question any canonical sources, so don't try it. They are canon and therefore designed to be taken at face-value, you have no authority to claim the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia is now null and void which is a frankly laughable claim. After all, where are your sources?
I never claimed that Star Wars: The Complete Encyclopedia is null and void on the whole, it cannot be. It is a good reference material but some parts of its content are now outdated and some parts retconned or contradicted by newer sourcebooks. This is not a matter of authority, this is a matter of observation and consideration. This doesn't means that the referred sourcebook itself cannot be considered for citation, after-all it have so much content and not every part of the content have been contradicted or retconned.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Earlier developments set down the path that the rest of continuity is expected to align with. One might argue that BioWare has failed to do this, by touting the Sith Emperor as the "most powerful" when others hold this title. But the fact is new sources do not override old sources, so all we can argue in the absence of a retcon is that the statement is time bound. The Ones clearly are exempt from such statements, being immortal, considering that the SWTORE made the claim that the Sith Emperor was the most powerful Force wielder in direct conflict with the statements made that it was in fact the Ones. How many more times must I explain that to you?
New sources do not override old sources? New sources can retcon old sources. At the least, they may contradict.
The Ones are exempt from evaluation based on what, Beni? Your opinion? The Ones are Force-users and they are now as much part of the lore as Yoda and Sidious are. In the light of this new development, this is why Disney seemingly changed the hype factor of Yoda from being "most powerful practitioner of light" to having "stronger connection to the Force then most."
Yoda remains a prodigiously talented Force-user but not the most powerful among the known Force-users, he is still better then most which is good enough IMO.
Yes, I accept that Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia have contradicted Star Wars: The Clone Wars TV series in the matter of most powerful Force-users but this happened under supervision of LucasArts, LucasFilms and George Lucas himself. I don't know about George Lucas but the aforementioned sourcebook got published with blessings of LucasArts and LucasFilms. In the Legends continuity, Sith Emperor's hype have some credibility because he have been introduced to the lore after the introduction of The Ones to the mythos and still hyped in comparable fashion (Follow the logic here?). In the Canon continuity, Emperor Vitiate is not even recognized yet. Therefore, The Ones likely remain the most powerful Force-users (or) stronger then known mortals at minimum in the Canon continuity thus far. This all boils down to Legends continuity versus Canon continuity in debates and I treat both as separate universes. This is why I do not tout that only Emperor Vitiate is a valid candidate for the hype of most powerful Force-user ever but he is a candidate nonetheless. Mind you, SWTOR have not been scrapped yet.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
FYI: That statement is canonical, so yes Exar Kun really was the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith up until that point. All you have provided is definitive proof that the time bound argument is in fact the case considering these quotes exist in the same book.
The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
&
The Sith Emperor, history's most powerful dark side master, performed a ritual of incredible scope to consume the life energy of every being on his homeworld. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
Emperor Vitiate have not been evaluated as a Sith Lord only, he have been evaluated generally covering all Force-users of the mythos.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Think it was just a typo? No. The statement is made in the contexts of the time, just as it is with the Sith Emperor. You need to accept this.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Anyway, your questioning my sources? Here. The novel is canon, those statements are therefore also canon. Yoda and Sidious therefore retain their canonical titles in light of the "latest developments."
Novelizations of the films are not canon. Only the films are canon at the moment.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
2. You miss the point, its described as hearsay in the SWTORE so it is unlikely the power is as well-developed as you claim, which it is not. Instead you are drawing erroneous interpretations of the feat.The Sith Emperor infused the atmosphere with DS energy, this disrupted the planets stratosphere and led to naturally occuring lightning storms.
It has absolutely nothing to do with Force Lightning and can barely be attributed to Alter Environment as it may well have been accidental. Therefore it cannot be used to claim - as you originally did - that the Sith Emperor is capable of spreading his lightning
across larger distances.
I accept that these are Alter Environment related developments, not Force-lightning.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
3. That Exal Kressh spread her lightning across the breadth of a space station - she did not.
More importantly, Emperor Vitiate can do better then her; Exal Kressh was his apprentice.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
4. When I meant engage I meant in lightsaber combat - as in they did not even get close to him. So ease would be a fitting description.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Anyway, considering the sheer amount of energy the Sith Emperor had to dispense it does not matter that Sidious' targets were weaker - noting that one of them was in fact killed.
Emperor Vitiate did not wanted to kill the Jedi that came to confront him on his space station and this is why he did not do his best, his intention was to incapacitate the Jedi and render them unconscious so he could use them as his pwns. This is why he unleashed controlled bursts of lightning on them.
Against Revan, Emperor Vitiate went all-out when he noticed that his controlled bursts were not doing the job. If T3-M4 had not interfered, Revan would have been reduced to a pile of ash or something.
Their is clear difference in intent in both confrontations. Greater the exertion, more powerful bursts of lightning accordingly as I pointed out above.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Need I even mention that he was in a weakened state? These more than make up for the disparity in power which subsequently fails to match up to the disparity in power exerted.
However, Darth Sidious had unleashed lightning on Luke Skywalker too (earlier development) and it didn't do much except to temporarily shock Luke and put him down. Maybe Darth Sidious didn't had lethal intent at this point but I don't know.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I never brought the Coruscant strike team into this so I don't know why you suddenly are. I'm talking about Leia, Brand and the other Jedi. On that topic though, Sidious had shown an ability to dominate beings of their caliber so he could absolutely have incapacitated all of them bar Windu with little difficulty.
Overwhelming lightsaber-oriented-defenses of 4 powerful Jedi simultaneously is no small and easy task, it requires enormous power and command of the application. Sidious have never demonstrated this much power with lightning, period.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
After all, he destroyed then in lightsaber combat because of his superior Force ability - his exceptional skills had little to do with it. It was pure speed.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
5. It was a blast of lightning, that is what Nyriss used, a blast of lightning. And no it was not a nexus.
Can you provide official details of this event?
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Also you failed to respond to my quote. Here it is again:Yet the barrier she threw up would have counted for nothing, Nyriss is described as putting all her energy into her final attack and this would have left her with nothing left to defend herself with - making her barriers easy to penetrate.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Now while this was not stated in the novel, it is the only logical conclusion to reach. If she had had her full barriers up, she would not have been incinerated, she would not have even been harmed. Because ultimately it would have been the equivalent of being attacked by a being of equal power. And an offense equal in power to a defense = stalemate.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
This is reinforced by a similar incident in which Sidious had his Force Lightning, which he put all his energy into, redirected by Galen Marek, yet he emerged unscathed, if we ascribe to your logic he would have died like Marek.[/I]
Also;
A squadron of stormtroopers ran into the room, led by a limping Darth Vader. They raised their blasters to gun down the Rebels as they fled up the Rogue Shadow's ramp.
"No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials. Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava. He saw rather than felt the massive shock wave that consumed a large portion of what remained of the observation dome. A glowing bubble of fire tore the stormtroopers to shreds and engulfed Vader and the Emperor. Shrapnel filled the air like dust caught in the beam of the Death Star's powerful laser. Tossed like a leaf, the Rogue Shadow fled in haste, ramp snapping shut on its precious cargo. The apprentice felt himself leaving his body again. Or was his body leaving him this time? He felt ripped apart by the energy that had flowed through him. Every cell was in shock; every fiber shook. The fire on his face possessed no heat at all. His limbs felt as distant as the farthest arms of the galaxy. He was amazed there was enough left of him to think at all. Weakened by the blast, the dome's supports gave way. It collapsed into the superlaser dish, triggering a series of conventional explosions. Stormtroopers converged on the site. Through the dense smoke, two figures were visible from the apprentice's rarefied perspective. Darth Vader struggled to his feet from the rubble, even more damaged than before. He reached out for support and found only his Master, scowling. Together, unspeaking, they searched the rubble. When they found what they were looking for, neither of them looked any happier for it. (Taken from Star Wars: The Force Unleashed ( Novelization))
Now you understand what happened?
Originally posted by Beniboybling
6. Nor was Luke when he beat Darth Vader?! Fisto's feats demonstrate him to be as powerful as he is, as do Leia's. I have no idea what this "official capacity" nonsense is.And I don't much care, so drop it.
Every fully trained Jedi becomes a powerful individual in comparison to normal beings. However, this logic does not applies to comparisons among the Jedi. In the official sources, only those Force-users are recognized as powerful who are among the "standouts" of their respective order.
If a Jedi is stated to be powerful or among the strongest in official sources, he implied as one of the strongest of all time.
When Leia confronted Sidious, she wasn't at her prime. Yes, she possessed some advanced talents and had some training but she wasn't strong like Revan or Yoda or even her brother. Potential is useless point in this matter since I am considering her situation at the time of her confrontations with Sidious.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
You want me to be more specific? Leia's feats demonstrate herself to be more powerful than Tol Braga and all the other members of the Jedi Strike Team bar the Hero of Tython.
Once again, provide me an official statement which confirms Leia as one of the strongest and most resolute Jedi of the Order at the time of her encounters with Sidious. Don't try to take advantage of lack of information about the Jedi who were part of the Strike Team led by Tol Braga.
Tol Braga once fought a Dark Council member for 3 day straight and convinced him to defect the Sith Order by demonstrating to him the strength and wisdom in Jedi ways. This accomplishment have never been duplicated in history. In addition, Tol Braga is the only known Force-user in the galactic history who might have broken free from telepathic influence of Emperor Vitiate without external help, this is really big since not even Revan and HoT have duplicated this accomplishment on their own. Furthermore, when Tol Braga and HoT fought each other, Tol Braga managed to overwhelm HoT with his Force powers for a while, such display of strength and performance that is impossible for most. Do not underestimate Tol Braga and neither Leia (DE) holds a candle to him.
Also, why we are even discussing Leia, its not as if Sidious reduced her to ash or something.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I am fully aware of what I said, and I was quite accurate. She was powerful enough use abilities such as battle meditation and sever Force both of which she used to help Luke defeat Darth Sidious and his Force Storm - the most powerful expression of the dark side on record.Let's turn your argument on its head:
"in absence of Leia, Luke stood no chance against Darth Sidious in single combat."
When Luke Skywalker attempted to destroy Sidious' clones on Byss, he was forced to confront one the clones and was totally overwhelmed, Sidious disarmed him with a couple of strikes before mentally dominating him.
However with Leia's help he was not only able to resist Sidious' mental domination, but engage and defeat him in a lightsaber duel and then sever him from the Force. The disparity between these two confrontations is immense and one could argue that Luke nigh doubled in power, which is a testament to Leia's own power.
So yes, Leia is deserved of the title "powerful" and is certainly more powerful than most of the Jedi Strike Team. This is clear proof of that. Considering that no other member of the OR era Jedi Order has pulled of comparable feats save the HoT - the most powerful member of the Order.
You are relying on vague accolades to infer that they are more powerful than Tol Braga, just because they have been described as the most powerful and resolute of their order does not make them superior to those who have not i.e Leia. This is a blatantly flawed argument as it relies on the notion that the entire Star Wars EU to consistently ascribe these accolades when necessary and uses adjectives consistently and specifically. Instead the opposite is the case.
Accolades are instead the basest level of evidence because they are 1. intepretable 2. so often time bound 3. subject to hyberbole.
However, my point is that Leia (DE) lacked in matters of effectively tapping in to her raw power, defensive and offensive use of the Force, talents in which Tol Braga specialized during his prime. Leia was not at her prime during her confrontations with Sidious, very simple; she was in the process of growing and learning.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
7. The fact is, Windu's mastery of Vaapad makes him incredibly advanced in the realm of Force deflection. Even more advanced than Master Yoda.Which means his deflective abilities are most certainly superior to Revan who has only mastered the basics, he has not taking it to Vaapad level mastery. The fact that Sidious was able to overwhelm such a defense indicates that he can overwhelm the defenses of anyone with inferior deflection skills. And this is demonstrated by his performance against Yoda.
In addition, Revan have superior Tutaminis capabilities then both Mace Windu and Yoda. The manner in which Revan handled Darth Nyriss's lightning is very impressive since even the most powerful of the Jedi struggle to tank Force lightning with raw power. Yoda found Count Dooku's lightning challenging to handle to a certain extent and his performance against Darth Sidious is shockingly inadequate for someone of his repute. Point is that it is not necessary that Yoda is superior to Revan in every aspect, not true.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And yes, I am correct concerning Marek, all he was capable of doing was taking a step towards him while experiencing extreme levels of pain. And he was only able to rebound the lightning via Oneness. Yoda did not experience that level of pain and did not require Oneness to deflect Sidious' lightning.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
So please explain to me how Yoda is surpassed in this category.Revan's perfomance against the Sith Emperor proves he cannot deal with top-tier Sith Lords such as Sidious, I have already proven this to Ant.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And as for the last part, feel free to cry about it. I really don't care.
As a reminder, it was you who argued that Yoda takes time to materialize his raw power effectively even though this doesn't seems to be the case in older Clone Wars cartoons. Difference is in realism factor of mediums, in a realistic medium it seems as if Yoda takes time to materialize his raw power perhaps due to aging factor. Revan does not have these limits. You should care.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
8. You'd have to me a pleb not to understand at this point Legend.You are many things, a pleb is not one of them.
The Sith Emperor was only able to disarm those Jedi via successive bursts of lightning combined with prolonged exposure to a Force Storm. He failed to immediately disarm Braga and the HoT when they attempted to approach him and he blasted them with Force Lightining.
Against Revan, it was a different story. Revan had proven to handle some of Emperor Vitiate's powers which was not the case in previous confrontation. So at one point, Emperor Vitiate decided to destroy him and therefore unleashed his Force Lightning Storm on him with lethal intentions at this point. A moment before this development, Revan realized that lightsaber-oriented defenses would not be sufficient to block power of such intensity so he pulled his Tutaminis card but it didn't work either. You should not use this as an excuse to belittle Revan or doubt his raw power.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sidious on the other hand succeeded in disarming Yoda without the aid of a Force Storm with but one blast.
Just consider the example of Xedrix; he was mere shadow of his former-self by the time he met Lord Scourge. Therefore, he was easily disposed off.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Please explain to me, as opposed to evading my point (which is rather in-genuine might I add) how it is that the Sith Emperor can't disarm a powerful Jedi with one blast of lightning, yet Sidious can.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because the only explanation I see is that the Sith Emperor's lightning isn't as powerful.
Darth Malgus have demonstrated the capability to swiftly disarm even a powerful Force-user with a single blast of his Force lightning. Emperor Vitiate can do better relatively, Beni.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Noting, the speed of Sidious lightning only demonstrates it was more powerful as is possessed greater kinetic force. And the argument that Yoda is old in this context I'm afraid is moot, Yoda has Force Valor which he can use to overcome his physical fraility.See here. Yoda's physical strength surpasses Sidious', debunking this silly notion that he lacked a strong grip on his lightsaber.9. I really don't care. Clearly he can't even begin to disarm a being of Yoda's caliber.
Bringing up out-of-universe observations is invalid and weak argument.
10. I have valid basis.
Yoda certainly had impressive strength but he demonstrated signs of aging. Another possibility is that Yoda is lacking in deflective capabilities in comparison to Revan and Mace Windu.
Also, difference in realism of mediums should be taken in to consideration. Movies are as realistic as a medium can get in depiction of Force powers and their effectiveness, SWTOR game pales in comparison in realism factor. You should care.
Thank you.
https://twitter.com/DelReyStarWars/statuses/461541040273764352
https://twitter.com/DelReyStarWars/statuses/461579307341840384
I will respond to the rest later.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
https://twitter.com/DelReyStarWars/statuses/461541040273764352https://twitter.com/DelReyStarWars/statuses/461579307341840384
I will respond to the rest later.
However;
"To clarify, movie novelizations are canon where they align with what is seen on screen in the 6 films and the Clone Wars animated movie."
This does not covers the accolade of Yoda in ROTS novel. Films do not tout him as the most powerful Jedi in history.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Thanks for sharing.However;
"To clarify, movie novelizations are canon where they align with what is seen on screen in the 6 films and the Clone Wars animated movie."
This does not covers the accolade of Yoda in ROTS novel. Films do not tout him as the most powerful Jedi in history.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, I accept that [B]Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia have contradicted Star Wars: The Clone Wars TV series in the matter of most powerful Force-users but this happened under supervision of LucasArts, LucasFilms and George Lucas himself. I don't know about George Lucas but the aforementioned sourcebook got published with blessings of LucasArts and LucasFilms. In the Legends continuity, Sith Emperor's hype have some credibility because he have been introduced to the lore after the introduction of The Ones to the mythos and still hyped in comparable fashion (Follow the logic here?). In the Canon continuity, Emperor Vitiate is not even recognized yet. Therefore, The Ones likely remain the most powerful Force-users (or) stronger then known mortals at minimum in the Canon continuity thus far. This all boils down to Legends continuity versus Canon continuity in debates and I treat both as separate universes. This is why I do not tout that only Emperor Vitiate is a valid candidate for the hype of most powerful Force-user ever but he is a candidate nonetheless. Mind you, SWTOR have not been scrapped yet.
[/B]
1) Legends continuity cannot contradict or overwrite Canon continuity. This is fact. Legends is non-canon, except in the circumstance that Disney decides to bring information from it to Canon continuity, thereby legitimizing it. While I agree that TOR could be canonized in the future, until that happens, it's still Legends.
2) The TOR Encyclopedia quote name Vitiate the most powerful does not extend past the TOR era, and if you disagree, please show me the quote that says he's greater than or equal to the Ones, because I haven't seen it. Also, as far as the Ones go, noone in the TOR era seems to be aware of their existence. Yes, I know Xendrek discovered them thousands of years prior to TOR, but unless he left a message for Vitiate to receive at a later time, we can't assume anyone knew about them, during the Cold War, just because we, as fans and readers, know they existed.
3) I apologize for the lateness of this response to our discussion of the quote about Yoda and Sidious being the most powerful practitioners of the Light/Dark sides, respectively, at the time of ROTS. Nothing has been overwritten, with the introduction of the Ones. By the time of the fight in ROTS, the Ones were dead, and Yoda/Sidious were the most powerful practitioners.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDFor a contradiction to occur, there must be two opposing sources in existence. The absence of a source is not a source in itself, therefore there is no contradiction.
Thanks for sharing.However;
"To clarify, movie novelizations are canon where they align with what is seen on screen in the 6 films and the Clone Wars animated movie."
This does not covers the accolade of Yoda in ROTS novel. Films do not tout him as the most powerful Jedi in history.
But nice try.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
For a contradiction to occur, there must be two opposing sources in existence. The absence of a source is not a source in itself, therefore there is no contradiction.But nice try.
If Yoda had been touted as most powerful Jedi Master in history in the films, this would be canon accolade. But this is not the case.
You will find canonical accolades of Yoda in the official databank of Star Wars. Check it out.